Haitian roundup

[NALs]

All I can say to this thread is it makes me sad. I understand that the DR has a right to protect its borders and control immigration policies but to say it's a black and white issue is not objective. I have been traveling to the DR since 1978 and our first plant was in the free zone of San Pedro de Macoris. The workers and the population was primarily Haitians. When they first came to the DR their motive was to harvest the sugar cane (a job that Gulf & Western found was repugnant to Dominicans). Their still here and not an insignificant percentage have never been or lived in Haiti. Anyone with a heart should feel for these people.

What was repugnant to Dominicans was (and continue to be) the slave like wages of that sector. Sugar producers never really wanted to increase their wages, hence they turn to importing foreign workers (first from the British Caribbean, but when these people began to demand higher wages to live decently the sugar producers turn to the Haitians who accepted the slave like wages with a docility worthy only of a slave.)

Raise the wages to levels that real Dominicans find acceptable and watch the sugar cane plantations find Dominican workers in a heart beat. In a country with such a high unemployment level, there's no shortage of Dominican workers.

Its the same in the construction industry. Dominicans don't want to do that work for the wages that the Haitians do it. As a result, you will find many Dominican working in construction projects in neighboring Puerto Rico, where the wages are more appropriate to Dominican needs; but those same Dominicans reject working in the Dominican construction industry due to the the wages.

Last week Consuelo Despradel attacked Dajabon Senator Sonia Mateo for saying that Haitians migrate to the DR because Dominicans don't want to work. Consuelo Despradel know that the central issue is the wages, too low to motivate most Dominicans. In fact, here's the back and forth between these two women:

[video=youtube;DAIhjK0-TxQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAIhjK0-TxQ[/video]

So many 'lazy' Dominicans suddenly become motivated to work as soon as they step on American soil. What could be the reason behind that change of attitude and desire? $$$$$$$

 

[sanpedrogringo]

All I can say to this thread is it makes me sad. I understand that the DR has a right to protect its borders and control immigration policies but to say it's a black and white issue is not objective. I have been traveling to the DR since 1978 and our first plant was in the free zone of San Pedro de Macoris. The workers and the population was primarily Haitians. When they first came to the DR their motive was to harvest the sugar cane (a job that Gulf & Western found was repugnant to Dominicans). Their still here and not an insignificant percentage have never been or lived in Haiti. Anyone with a heart should feel for these people.

In regards to San Pedro de Macoris, you may have, or may be, confusing Haitians with the Cocolos. Not all dark skinned people on the island of Hispaniola, especially in San Pedro de Macoris, are Haitian, or of Haitian descent.

 

[cavok]

All I can say to this thread is it makes me sad. I understand that the DR has a right to protect its borders and control immigration policies but to say it's a black and white issue is not objective. I have been traveling to the DR since 1978 and our first plant was in the free zone of San Pedro de Macoris. The workers and the population was primarily Haitians. When they first came to the DR their motive was to harvest the sugar cane (a job that Gulf & Western found was repugnant to Dominicans). Their still here and not an insignificant percentage have never been or lived in Haiti. Anyone with a heart should feel for these people.

The Dominican government did have a heart - that's why they created the PNRE at the cost of over $50 million dollars USD. Many of the sugar cane workers you refer to were not only naturalized and given citizenship, but many also received permanent residency - FREE!

Those that did not qualify for the plan were unable to get proper documentation - which was the fault of the Haitian government because Haiti wants to continue to stoke and fan the flames of racism againt the Dominican Republic for their own agenda.

And many of those that are being deported today have entered the DR recently - in the last year and a half since the plan ended. They are not the Haitian sugar cane workers you are referring to.

 

[suavena]

Balaguer was an intellectual and read a lot. He became aware of the situation by what others had written before him, which added to what his eyes were seeing as the years pass made it a very obvious problem.

With that said, back in 1911 Spanish writer and intellectual Marcelino Menéndez y Pelayo wrote about the vicissitudes of Dominican people in his book of the history of poetry in the Spanish American world. He also saw what was written on the wall.

My translation:

No one can expect standards of taste on an emerging literature that has been formed in such adverse conditions. What should remain from this only time will tell; but, what will remain for sure and positively is the memorable example of a handful of peoples of Spanish blood. Since the XVII century they were forgotten by their metropolis, except for late and inappropriate reinvindications. They had to coexist and fight, first, against elements that threatened their language, then against dividing elements that were against the European race and civilization. They were impoverished and demised by earthquakes, fires, devastation; and massacres. They were handled over to the rapacity of the pirates, of the filibusters, and of the blacks. They were sold and given over by the diplomacy as if they were nothing more than a herd of cattle. Oppressed by an unbearable leadership and victims of a perennial anarchy. They resisted all the tests, they continue to speak Spanish, they have constituted a defined people and culture. They found, within the very hard conditions of their lives, some respite for the ideal, and sooner or later they had their own poets. The past is the foundation of the future, but today dark clouds are forming over Santo Domingo and the future of our people is the least certain there than in any other part of Spanish America.

He mentions the French where he says 'elements that threatened their language' and where he mentions 'the pirates, the filibusters.'

Then he refers to the Haitians where he says 'dividing elements that were against the European race and civilization.' He also refers to the Haitians again where he mentions 'massacres' the Dominican people were subjected to. And again where he metions 'the blacks.' At the end he mentions the uncertain future for the survival of the Dominican people given the duality of the island and the demographic expansion that threatens to engulf and absorb the entire Dominican people, in effect diluting an entire people into oblivion forever.

You really know your thing when it comes to Dominican history. Balaguer not only read but also wrote many times about the subject. His book "La Isla alrevez, Haiti y el destino Dominicano" or "the upside-down island, Haiti and the Dominican destiny" explained in detail with facts about the never-ending threat Haiti hold to the survival of the Dominican culture. His conclusion was that the only way Dominican Rep. can be left in peace to find its own destiny only if Haiti finally get their act together and become a real nation and not a failed state. It is in the best interest of DR for Haiti to prosper and do well.

 

[cbmitch9]

What was repugnant to Dominicans was (and continue to be) the slave like wages of that sector. Sugar producers never really wanted to increase their wages, hence they turn to importing foreign workers (first from the British Caribbean, but when these people began to demand higher wages to live decently the sugar producers turn to the Haitians who accepted the slave like wages with a docility worthy only of a slave.)

Raise the wages to levels that real Dominicans find acceptable and watch the sugar cane plantations find Dominican workers in a heart beat. In a country with such a high unemployment level, there's no shortage of Dominican workers.

Its the same in the construction industry. Dominicans don't want to do that work for the wages that the Haitians do it. As a result, you will find many Dominican working in construction projects in neighboring Puerto Rico, where the wages are more appropriate to Dominican needs; but those same Dominicans reject working in the Dominican construction industry due to the the wages.

Last week Consuelo Despradel attacked Dajabon Senator Sonia Mateo for saying that Haitians migrate to the DR because Dominicans don't want to work. Consuelo Despradel know that the central issue is the wages, too low to motivate most Dominicans. In fact, here's the back and forth between these two women:



So many 'lazy' Dominicans suddenly become motivated to work as soon as they step on American soil. What could be the reason behind that change of attitude and desire? $$$$$$$

What you have noted above is typical of what happens when you have an illegal immigrant population. The illegal Haitians work for wages that most Dominicans find repugnant and the illegal Dominicans work in the neighboring island of PR for wages that most Puerto Ricans find repugnant or beneath them. The constant in this are two facts: Businesses take advantage of illegal labor and illegal labor accept wages due to them being illegal and needing to survive. You are correct in that if wages increase, more locals would accept the jobs. But, without enforcement by the government, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

 

[Quisqueya]

The Dominican government did have a heart - that's why they created the PNRE at the cost of over $50 million dollars USD. Many of the sugar cane workers you refer to were not only naturalized and given citizenship, but many also received permanent residency - FREE!

Those that did not qualify for the plan were unable to get proper documentation - which was the fault of the Haitian government because Haiti wants to continue to stoke and fan the flames of racism againt the Dominican Republic for their own agenda.

And many of those that are being deported today have entered the DR recently - in the last year and a half since the plan ended. They are not the Haitian sugar cane workers you are referring to.

There is two situations that are interrelated which shouldn't be.  We have undocumented Haitians and on the other hand we have Dominican of Haitian origins whose parents did come to work legally with contract via both governments.  One should not confuse the them,as they're two different cases.  Again as a stated the DR has the right to deport undocumented Haitians as it is a sovereign nation with an influx of immigrants from Haiti.

Now to think Haiti has an agenda towards Dominican immigration policy is ludicrous and out right insane.  The Haitian government also has a problem documenting every person especially when that person doesn't speak creole nor French.  You can't expect for an administration which is overwhelmed with a high demand to figure out if a person is Haitian just because he says so.

It is hard to not see the neonazi agenda of some based on their past and previous discussions.  Why does one need an approval of their colonizer to assess an immigration issue.  The affinity for thy master is irrelevant in this immigration policy.  Despradal herself is of Haitian descent more so than Peña Gomez.  It's hard to fully back up the obvious immigration problem of Haitian nationals with neonazis spewing nonsense.  I'm sure the Spanish poet wasn't referring to her preserving the Spanish language as she speaks horrible Spanish.  Can we just leave past historical and race to focus on the immigration policy 

 

[cavok]

There is two situations that are interrelated which shouldn't be.  We have undocumented Haitians and on the other hand we have Dominican of Haitian origins whose parents did come to work legally with contract via both governments.  One should not confuse the them,as they're two different cases.  Again as a stated the DR has the right to deport undocumented Haitians as it is a sovereign nation with an influx of immigrants from Haiti.

Now to think Haiti has an agenda towards Dominican immigration policy is ludicrous and out right insane.  The Haitian government also has a problem documenting every person especially when that person doesn't speak creole nor French.  You can't expect for an administration which is overwhelmed with a high demand to figure out if a person is Haitian just because he says so.

It is hard to not see the neonazi agenda of some based on their past and previous discussions.  Why does one need an approval of their colonizer to assess an immigration issue.  The affinity for thy master is irrelevant in this immigration policy.  Despradal herself is of Haitian descent more so than Peña Gomez.  It's hard to fully back up the obvious immigration problem of Haitian nationals with neonazis spewing nonsense.  I'm sure the Spanish poet wasn't referring to her preserving the Spanish language as she speaks horrible Spanish.  Can we just leave past historical and race to focus on the immigration policy 

Those cases are different, but not totally unrelated. The situation with Haitians born here in the DR is complex. In general, the DR does not recognize jus solis, so a foreign national, Haitian or otherwise, born here in the DR is not automatically a Dominican citizen nor granted any kind of legal staus in the country.

It's worth noting that Haiti does not recognize jus solis either. Neither do 162 other countries in the world. A foreign national, Dominican or otherwise, that is born in Haiti is not recognized as a Haitian citizen. In fact, I believe that in Haiti at least one, if not both of your parents, must be a natural born Haitian for your child to be Haitian citizen. Haiti recognizes jus sanguinis and any child born to Haitian parents is automatically a Haitian citizen - so children of Haitians born here, or in any other country, are automatically Haitian.

There are always exceptions and many Haitians were naturalized and/or given permanent residency under the PNRE. However, the problem is in determing the veracity of those claiming to be born here. Think about it -if all that is necessary to be granted citizenship or some form of residency is to claim to be born here - everyone will!

And on one hand it is perfectly acceptable to you that, and I quote: "you can't expect for an administration which is overwhelmed with a high demand to figure out if a person is Haitian just because he says so", but at the same time you are critical of the DR gov and expect it to grant residency to those very same people who are unable to prove who they are? Anyone who can't see through this ruse of not accepting deported Haitians back into their own country is totally blind.

Most of the Haitians that are being rounded up do not fall in this category anyway. They(as well as all other illegal immigrants) had 18 months to enter the PNRE and under the plan they have a legal status and are protected from deportation - and have just been given another 12 months legal staus to get the required paperwork. If they didn't enter the plan - is that the DR's fault, too? They established over 24 centers around the country to make it as easy as possible for illegal immigrants from ALL countries - not just Haiti.

It is estimated that over 60,000 Haitians are entering illegally ever year. These make up the majority of those now being deported.

Anyone who doesn't know that Haiti has their own hidden agenda regarding immigration to the DR is completely naive. It is no secret that many NGO's and other countries are pushing the reunite DR and Haiti as one country. The more Haitians that are in the DR the more influence and leverage Haiti to influence both immigration and politics here in the DR and there is nothing that a failed state like Haiti would like to see more than reunification with the DR. What a disaster that would be for the DR!

Neonazis? Just whom are you referring to? I haven't seen one post by anyone on this forum that could even remotely be construed to be neonazi. If you're going to make some outrageous accusation like that - back it up. Re-post those posts that you are referring to and explain why you think they are neonazi - or your baseless, bigoted accusations are just total malarkey.

And who is focusing on race? So far, the only ones I see focusing on race and neonazi name-calling are neoliberal socialists in order to further their globalist agenda.

 

[Fulano2]

It is hard to not see the neonazi agenda ..... It's hard to fully back up the obvious immigration problem of Haitian nationals with neonazis spewing nonsense.  

Using these words is just offensive, rude and probably shows a lack of understanding of the european history. For us this is bad taste. Read some books about what the nazi's did please.

 

[pularvik]

I cannot agree that it is entirely Haitis fault. My worker registered and is documented under the PNRE. He had a legal birth certificate from Haiti at that time. A few months later he got his Haiti passport.  With his passport he was able to get his police record of good conduct.  Yet, despite many visits to the office he has not received a single document from the DR.  They are not requesting any further documents but they keep saying come back in a few weeks or a month,- latest was come back in September (just before the July 17 deadline).  
Bottomline,- this Haitian used the time and got the required documents from Haiti but the DR will not issue him any type of legal residency in this country.  They cannot ask for any more documents since they have them all.  So they put him off and continue to blame Haiti for not giving their citizens documentation.
I have hired a lawyer for him who has achieved no success.

 

[bob saunders]

I cannot agree that it is entirely Haitis fault. My worker registered and is documented under the PNRE. He had a legal birth certificate from Haiti at that time. A few months later he got his Haiti passport.  With his passport he was able to get his police record of good conduct.  Yet, despite many visits to the office he has not received a single document from the DR.  They are not requesting any further documents but they keep saying come back in a few weeks or a month,- latest was come back in September (just before the July 17 deadline).  
Bottomline,- this Haitian used the time and got the required documents from Haiti but the DR will not issue him any type of legal residency in this country.  They cannot ask for any more documents since they have them all.  So they put him off and continue to blame Haiti for not giving their citizens documentation.
I have hired a lawyer for him who has achieved no success.

But he is not going to be kick out as he has supplied the government with the documents. Many Haitians have gotten their documents. We have a number of Haitians show up at the school either to register a child or inquire about registration. They all so far have residency.

 

[cavok]

I cannot agree that it is entirely Haitis fault. My worker registered and is documented under the PNRE. He had a legal birth certificate from Haiti at that time. A few months later he got his Haiti passport.  With his passport he was able to get his police record of good conduct.  Yet, despite many visits to the office he has not received a single document from the DR.  They are not requesting any further documents but they keep saying come back in a few weeks or a month,- latest was come back in September (just before the July 17 deadline).  
Bottomline,- this Haitian used the time and got the required documents from Haiti but the DR will not issue him any type of legal residency in this country.  They cannot ask for any more documents since they have them all.  So they put him off and continue to blame Haiti for not giving their citizens documentation.
I have hired a lawyer for him who has achieved no success.

A friend of mine has two Haitians that work on his small ranch. When the PNRE came out, he paid for them to get the necessary documents to enter the plan. They both are now here legally on a workers visa. On another thread, several other forum members had Haitians workinf for them and they were also able to get them into the plan and get the req'd worker visas.

On yet another thread(can't remember which), quite a few Americans and Canadians who got into the plan with all the required paperwork and received the 2 year visa in their passport are still waiting for further instructions for DGM as to how to finalize their residency.

It's not just Haitians that are in the same predicament as your worker. However, they still have legal status in the DR and will not be deported. I have two Canadian friends that have their two year visa and are still awaiting instructions on what to do next to complete their residency, They have called many times only to be told that they will be contated or to check back in a couple weeks.

 

[Gabriela]

Funny how Trump and the DR are both focusing on Haitians. Not funny actually. Racist and wrong.

 

[AlterEgo]

Funny how Trump and the DR are both focusing on Haitians. Not funny actually. Racist and wrong.

This thread is not about a Trump OR racism, neither of which are permitted discussion in the regular forums.  

Don't go there, no more warnings. 

 

[ohmmmm]

Many people in the regularization program have all the documents submitted, including passport and birth certificate, and have not received a temp residency or anything. They go to immigration and are told they will be contacted sometime in the future. Never received a call or instructions on what to do next.

 

[Fulano2]

You have to wait 90 working days and check the website daily. You will receive a call and go next day. Tell you even a Swiss passport is easier to get.

 

[bob saunders]

Using these words is just offensive, rude and probably shows a lack of understanding of the european history. For us this is bad taste. Read some books about what the nazi's did please.

THE USE OF neo-Nazi is almost exclusively a term used by western liberals when they losing an argument or to vilify something they either know little about or understand, or Palestinian supporters. Haitians throughout history have caused a great deal of pain in the DR and a passive invasion is feared, as it should be.

 

[Gabriela]

THE USE OF neo-Nazi is almost exclusively a term used by western liberals when they losing an argument or to vilify something they either know little about or understand, or Palestinian supporters. Haitians throughout history have caused a great deal of pain in the DR and a passive invasion is feared, as it should be.

Yawn.

 

[Fulano2]

Yes sleep well.

 

[Drak]

I have two Canadian friends that have their two year visa and are still awaiting instructions on what to do next to complete their residency, They have called many times only to be told that they will be contated or to check back in a couple weeks.

Agreed; the sheer volume off the documents they're going through, given their resources is likely the reason for taking so long.

An American I know just a couple weeks ago had his call-in to pickup his 4-year residency.

 

[mofongoloco]

This thread is not about a Trump OR racism, neither of which are permitted discussion in the regular forums.  

Don't go there, no more warnings. 

Thank you for the reminder. It is sometimes difficult to remember/know whatbthread i'm in. An occasional friendly reminder such as this reminds me. 

I think this forum does well dealing with the r-word. 

On a rare occasion i side  step th issue by using the term continental origin. Idky but it is a less provocative term.