Haiti can not catch a break

[Willowtears]

This is very true! Some of us never have or never will understand the ferocity or demons that come with hunger!

I'm one of those people that could probably never fully be satisfied! I can not accept nor conceive the hunger around the world...what happen in Haiti truly hurts my heart and shatters my soul that much more.

 

[Chip]

this is not a step backward. its just an occurrence. when the infrastructure is rebuilt in the future it will be better and even more, now we may get to the reason why haiti was allowed to falter for so long. Every problem there was not an internal problem. There were colonizers and international interlopers interceding in their affairs all the time.

You are right that this event will be an impetus for future growth and investment in Haiti.

I predict many foreigners involved in the many years long redevelopment will stay and start businesses. The international community will be throwing a lot of money at the situation and this will attract foreign development. In 5 years look to see PAP 15 years ahead of where they are now.

As far as the oh so predictable pc comment about the colonizers, if it weren't for the "international interlopers" getting involved they really wouldn't be going any where soon.

As far as where Haiti is at today, no doubt there repayment loans to France hurt them but then again their institutionalized and viscious massacre of the educated class during the revolution is what really did them in. Did they need to massacre so many whites and mulattoes to gain their independence? Unfortunately, these were all the country had that were educated and had trades and skills.

 

[ExtremeR]

blah blah blah i come from a country thats way better off than haiti so i have no clue what its like to be a citizen of such a country and since i never had to do a thing to get my country where it is and was most likely handed all the basics (that i take for granted) on a platter im gonna sit here and tell much poorer people what they "should" do blah blah blah

thats all i see.


racerx is on the money

if life is a 10 meter race and u just popped up (read: were luckily born) at the 2 meter mark, you cannot say a damn thing to those who have to start at ZERO about how if they just worked as hard as YOU, they could be as great. gimme a friggin break.

Post of the thread, and I concur, RacerX is on the money this time. I find it disgusting to blast Haiti and Haitians from an air conditioned room or office, eating potato chips and doing absolutely nothing at all to help. It seems like that even with this disaster Haiti doesn't get much sympathy from some here.

 

[bob saunders]

blah blah blah i come from a country thats way better off than haiti so i have no clue what its like to be a citizen of such a country and since i never had to do a thing to get my country where it is and was most likely handed all the basics (that i take for granted) on a platter im gonna sit here and tell much poorer people what they "should" do blah blah blah

thats all i see.


racerx is on the money

if life is a 10 meter race and u just popped up (read: were luckily born) at the 2 meter mark, you cannot say a damn thing to those who have to start at ZERO about how if they just worked as hard as YOU, they could be as great. gimme a friggin break.

There are countries in Europe like Ireland that were once like Haiti(potato famine, over taxed by the English....etc)I've spent considerable time in Ethiopia(famine relief) Somalia, Honduras, and several other extremely poor countries. It's not about blabbing from an easy chair. There are people living on Indian reserves or inner cities, or the Ozarks that are as destitute as those in third world countries. The DR has extreme poverty, corupt government, used to be run by a Dictator- invaded by the Americans for simular reasons(the first time)very simular history to Haiti, so why the difference?

 

[ExtremeR]

There are countries in Europe like Ireland that were once like Haiti(potato famine, over taxed by the English....etc)I've spent considerable time in Ethiopia(famine relief) Somalia, Honduras, and several other extremely poor countries. It's not about blabbing from an easy chair. There are people living on Indian reserves or inner cities, or the Ozarks that are as destitute as those in third world countries. The DR has extreme poverty, corupt government, used to be run by a Dictator- invaded by the Americans for simular reasons(the first time)very simular history to Haiti, so why the difference?

When the DR had extreme poverty? We have poverty but extreme poverty??

 

[Chirimoya]

The causes of Haiti's problems are tangled and complex. I don't agree with those who simplify it and let the atrocious leaders off the hook by saying it was all because of colonialism. It is just one of many factors.

In the 20th century there were some parallels between the two countries - mainly the US occupations and subsequent prolonged repressive regimes. An important difference being that for all their faults the DR's Trujillo and Balaguer modernised the country while Haiti's Duvaliers didn't. A lot of Haiti's infrastructure dates back to the 1915-1934 US invasion.

 

[Chip]

I can assure you that Haitians aren't deforestin their country to get rich. They're doing it because their children's bellies are empty. These people are entrapped in a cycle of poverty which is self perpetuating. Education, conservation, family planning and social development are only possible when people's children are being fed. The only lessons that hungry people learn are the ones that affect their immediate survival.

Speaking as someone who has been to Haiti and have Haitian friends, as I said before, Haiti has done itself in by rejecting western ways and influences to a large degree in the beginning and are reaping the ramifications of those actions. For example, the DR shares the same island and they haven't deforested it to near the same degree. Then again, the Dominicans didn't forcefully kill or exile those with knowledge on how to manage resources and take care of the land. And as the population density has become critical enough, they have adjusted and made propane gas readily available. The Haitian government can do this but don't - and I have yet to hear a good reason why they have not.

 

[Adrian Bye]

The causes of Haiti's problems are tangled and complex. I don't agree with those who simplify it and let the atrocious leaders off the hook by saying it was all because of colonialism. It is just one of many factors.

The causes of any serious problem are complex. But is haiti really so different today from most west african countries where most of the people are descended from?

What matters is finding solutions so Haiti can become an fully independent, self sustaining country built on their long term natural strategic advantages. It would be awesome to see Haiti giving the DR and other nearby islands a run for their money in business.

 

[Chirimoya]

Chip, the people are not all that different but their circumstances are - if it wasn't for subsidised gas and gifts of gas stoves to the poor introduced under Balaguer as an alternative to charcoal, the DR may have suffered similar degrees of deforestation.

 

[Chirimoya]

The causes of any serious problem are complex. But is haiti really so different today from most west african countries where most of the people are descended from?

Don't know enough about W Africa to reply to that, but some of the former French colonies in W Africa are better off that Haiti, FWIW.

What matters is finding solutions so Haiti can become an fully independent, self sustaining country built on their long term natural strategic advantages. It would be awesome to see Haiti giving the DR and other nearby islands a run for their money in business.

That is something to strive for and it's not all that unrealistic. Bob mentioned Ireland's transformation from impoverished and backward to a Euro-success story and I've also made that analogy in the past. What's so tragic is, Haiti was at a turning point, and then the earthquake hit.

 

[Chip]

Chip, the people are not all that different but their circumstances are - if it wasn't for subsidised gas and gifts of gas stoves to the poor introduced under Balaguer as an alternative to charcoal, the DR may have suffered similar degrees of deforestation.

You have made part of my point. The Haitian government has a history of rejecting Western ways - and this is a perfect example.

Sometimes an investment in future is just that. Maybe the benefits won't be seen immediately and the cost may seem overburdensome, but history will prove that the changes have to be made or something will have to give - namely Haiti's arable land. You can't tell me that if the Haitian government hadn't repeatedly stolen it's citizen's wealth that they could have invested it in the same way as the Dominicans did to get to a propane system.

Fact is many Haitians are living at a very primitive level because of a history of rejecting modernization. And as with many primitive societies there are ramifications to bear, such as a relatively difficult life.

What they should have not done is massacre and exile all the Europeans and mulattoes in the beginning and then consitently reject Western influences as apparently this established a legacy. Thus the knowledge of these people could have been passed on to later generations of Haitians.

Below is a commentary from the early 20th century and later on as an example:

'All of Haiti is being destroyed'

 

[bob saunders]

When the DR had extreme poverty? We have poverty but extreme poverty??

43 % of Dominicans live at the poverty level and 16% extreme poverty.
USAID - Latin America & Caribbean: Latin America & the Caribbean

 

[Roark]

43 % of Dominicans live at the poverty level and 16% extreme poverty.
USAID - Latin America & Caribbean: Latin America & the Caribbean

16%? Less than 1/5 of the population? I find that a bit low. I would shoot more toward 25%. (even though I know you cited this).

 

[Chirimoya]

Chip, Haiti has rejected western ways or the Haitian government? I agree if you mean the latter - see my comment about modernisation in post 26:

An important difference being that for all their faults the DR's Trujillo and Balaguer modernised the country while Haiti's Duvaliers didn't. A lot of Haiti's infrastructure dates back to the 1915-1934 US invasion.

I'd say it was not so much an active rejection of western ways as corruption and ineptness on the part of the Duvaliers.

 

[ExtremeR]

43 % of Dominicans live at the poverty level and 16% extreme poverty.
USAID - Latin America & Caribbean: Latin America & the Caribbean

I bet you those living in extreme poverty are located in or near bateyes. Simply the extreme poverty ghost in the DR is really low.

 

[daddy1]

im sad and conflicted at the same time

:ermm: Something now needs to happen to Haiti and the future of there citizens...the president, prime minister etc ousted the last goverment...these men should be held responsible and accountable...for not having any resourses for there people in an emergency...the U.N. has to come together an see who can annex this island acting as a country ...but no longer can it... run itself..because frankly... it cannot!!!irate:

this island needs to be annexed..either by the Britts, Americans, or canadians, all this aid will be a waste...haiti cannot govern itself...the mentally and corruption must stop...no haitian high official is taking responsibility for there lack of monetary funds to help there own in any crisis...this is not fair to there children and many now have paid with there lives!

im not trying to be insensitive especially during this period where many Haitians are suffering here, and in the island...but even i a liberal Democrate has to question all of this help.. only to put back those who have mis-managed, stolen, and have no plans on improving Haitian society

I will end with this..this is the last time i will donate any money to Haiti again, for as long as that goverment which is a national discrace be removed and turn that island over to a system that cares for people! dedicated to my long time friend Abraham St Pierre R.I.P. manito.

 

[RacerX]

This is a very acurate take on how and why events transformed Haiti into the wreck that it was before the earthquake. It wasn't the FFL who removed Aristide. It was U.S. Marines who woke him and family in the middle of the night to transport them away from a "coup in progress" for their safety. There is an in depth account of this in Randall Robinson's book "Quitting America". There was no "coup". His policies were just in the way of the "trickle down" theorists. We all shrugged it off (most, anyway).

But now the World is watching. I just heard President Obama promise an additional $100M to aid in the rebuilding effort. This money will be scrutinized as much as any stimulus expenditure and results will be closely monitored. This administration will make a difference in Haiti although I don't think that P Au P will support over 3/4M people. Many will be relocated. A new government with a new agenda will be required to make this work.

Yea, I downplayed the US Marines kidnapping, but there were FFL there to administer some of the takeover

 

[Chip]

I'd say it was not so much an active rejection of western ways as corruption and ineptness on the part of the Duvaliers.

It started much, much longer than that. The revolutionaries massacred/exiled the white's and mulattoes - my ancestors in fact.

The Haitian Revolution

Since they held 99% of the knowledge who was left to run the country and manage it's resources? Further evidence of this lack of respect of this type of knowledge/skills is evident during the Haitian occupation of the DR; they repeatedly forced the Dominicans to give them food to support their troops because they couldn't produce enough on their own - even though by all accounts they had inherited some of the most fertile land the world has ever seen.

This legacy was passed on to other generation, hence the total lack of respect for all the infrastructure the Americans left in the beginning of the 20th century. If you read the link I posted, it is evident that these things were neglected before Duvalier came into power. See another link for reference:

Haiti Travel Guide

 

[RacerX]

blah blah blah i come from a country thats way better off than haiti so i have no clue what its like to be a citizen of such a country and since i never had to do a thing to get my country where it is and was most likely handed all the basics (that i take for granted) on a platter im gonna sit here and tell much poorer people what they "should" do blah blah blah

thats all i see.


racerx is on the money

if life is a 10 meter race and u just popped up (read: were luckily born) at the 2 meter mark, you cannot say a damn thing to those who have to start at ZERO about how if they just worked as hard as YOU, they could be as great. gimme a friggin break.

Thank you POP I will wire the money to our swiss account tomorrow morning.
But seriously, you arent starting at the 0meter mark. You try to ran but the 0 mark keeps moving FOR YOU-BACKWARDS. For those who start at the 2 meter mark, the definition of the length of the meter changes. So you always have that advantage of success. And the advantage of success makes you sanctimonious. "You didnt succeed because you didnt try hard enough". "You are lazy, corrupt, incompetent(insert degradatory adjective here)". When we look at Haiti and Africa we should seriously discuss why are ALL these countries butt poor but resource rich? And why are quite a few European countries resource poor but economically vibrant?

 

[Chip]

Chiri

As a side note, I found out this information while trying to track down the travels of my ancestor, who by all accounts was a French sea captain based out of Cap Haitienne, Saint Domingue before the revolution. He either went to South Carolina directly or to Santo Domingo before eventually settling in the US.