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Thread: Social Conditioning of Dominicans through History?? What Do You Think??

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    Question Social Conditioning of Dominicans through History?? What Do You Think??

    Disclaimer: This thread is NOT about racial discrimination, nor is it intended to imply the superiority or inferiority of ANY Race over any other. Please keep your comments free of any racially charged expressions.

    For those living in the Dominican Republic, native, expat, or anything in between, I would like to ask-
    Do you think Dominicans (very generally speaking) are somewhat in denial about their Racial Heritage?? or
    Do you think that there is a sincere, but perhaps misguided sense of self-identity??
    If the latter is the case, do you think that there is possibility that a tampering and subsequent manipulating of History or 'Social conditioning' could be the cause of this??

    For example, Trujillo undeniably attempted to 'whiten' or 'lighten' the Dominican populous during his reign. He allowed the migration of Jewish refugees, he allowed the entrance of Japanese in the 1930's (making them a virtual fence to further deter the entrance of Haitians) and even exiles from Spain's Civil War. Furthermore the Parsley Massacre of Haitian Immigrants could also be added to the list of things Trujillo did to send his message of "White is good, Black is bad".
    Then there are the historical references to Enriquillo and how he was a champion of the Taino legacy, and NOT a partner of the Africans of that time period. (Race and Dominicanness in the Dominican Republic) I have also read other examples of even in textbooks where there are clear exaggerations made with the intent to 'brain wash' people into accepting and subsequently believing that, despite the Historical discrepancies Dominicans are not 'Black' but rather 'Indio'.

    And even to this very day there is STILL a VERY apparent contention between Dominicans and Haitians. There is a constant 'back and forth' of violence where Haitians and Dominicans are in close quarters. From what I personally know, Haitians are generally viewed as 'the enemy', and at the very least an unwelcomed nuisance in the country. The Haitians that do live in the Dominican Republic are at the bottom of the the lower class, a large portion of them working (slaving would be more apt) in the Batey's in modern day slave plantations.

    Looking back at history, it is understandable why this (the general rejecting of Black) may be the case. As it applies to the Social and Racial dynamics of the Dominican Republic, it does certainly seem that Black and African is generally more connected to something undesirable, inferior, ugly, threatening and imposing, whereas White and European is generally more connected to something acceptable, preferable, desirable, good, attractive etc.

    Have you personally noticed this, and do you think that Social 'conditioning' or 'brain washing' has played a large part in this???

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    Being married to a Dominican that isn't concerned about what her racial makeup is, and neither do any in her family or circle of friends to range from pure white to mightnight black, as well as haitian I would say in my experience your statements don't hold water. Haitians are at the lower end of the scale because most of them are illegal, uneducated, and willing to work for less than Dominicans.
    As far as Bateys , have you been to one or are you just quoting or repeating off some webpage.

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    there is a very interesting article on the haitian massacre in 1937 by richard lee turits called "a world destroyed a nation imposed" Project MUSE - Hispanic American Historical Review - A World Destroyed, A Nation Imposed: The 1937 Haitian Massacre in the Dominican Republic.
    he claims that the whole black and white thing was an ideology that was only spread among the "white" santo domingo elite. the rest of the population, especially the rural one, was rooted localy and did not realy identify with either a nation or skin color. frontiers were not exactly clear cut, and control of the central state did not reach very far beyond the major cities.
    so in the border regions and rural communities there was no clear distinction between (black) hatians and (lighter skinned) dominicans. people were living in local communities composed of people that were born on either side of the border, and moving frequently between haiti and the dr for trade purposes.
    trujillo than made use of the anti black ideology of thinkers like balaguer to further the influence of the central state and to finally settle the borders. before, it was very difficult to tax goods traded between haiti and the dr because there were no clear borders, no influence of the central state and therefore no control. dominicans living in the border region were also not interested in clear and controlled borders, let alone the central state having any influence over their lives, because that whould have meant they had to pay tariffs. trujillo slaughtered the haitians in order to justify closing the borders (claiming that haitians were a threat dominicans had to be protected from), not to whiten the dr. only after the massacre, the ideology of a "white" dominican culture which had to be protected from a "black" and barbaric afro haitian culture spread among the lower dominican classes, partly due to propaganda, and partly as aftermath of the shock of the massacre which had massively altered their daily lives from one day to another.
    but there is of course also the heritage of the spanish colonial caste system, which was very detailed, and had a name for almost every shade of skin colour and ethnic mixture. the whiter you were, the higher your social standing, with being pure african ranking the lowest, closely followed by being pure indio. this actually adds to turits claim, since he also says that due to the neglect of the spanish crown, and therefore the very weak colonial central state, the influence of spanish colonial society never went beyond the major cities, with the rural population being made up mostly of very independ ancestors of runaway slaves.
    it is not the major point of the book, but if you're interested in the topic you should read "foundations of despotisms: peasents, the trujillo regime and modernity in the dominican republic" by turits, since in my opinion, it really helps getting a understanding of dominican society.

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    Default Deep Sea Creatures and Bateys

    Quote Originally Posted by bob saunders View Post
    Being married to a Dominican that isn't concerned about what her racial makeup is, and neither do any in her family or circle of friends to range from pure white to mightnight black, as well as haitian I would say in my experience your statements don't hold water. Haitians are at the lower end of the scale because most of them are illegal, uneducated, and willing to work for less than Dominicans.
    As far as Bateys , have you been to one or are you just quoting or repeating off some webpage.
    Thanks for your input, all opinions and viewpoints are welcome. However, to say that my statements don't hold water based on your Dominican's wife circle of friends seems to me a stretch. Even if your wife was extremely popular and actually did have a VERY large circle of friends, that would still probably represent LESS than 1% of the Country, there are at least a Million Haitians alone. There are tons of articles, reports and studies on the matter, so although my statement may not hold water, they are at the very least damp with some verifiable substance.
    Have I even been to a Batey?? No, admittedly I have not. But have you ever been in a Submarine on a deep-sea expedition to study new sea creatures??? I imagine you have not. So, how on Earth (no pun intended, but very much welcomed) would you actually be able to form an opinion on the matter?? I imagine you would probably read studies, articles, reports and then examine subsequent photos and videos on the subject and then form a base of understanding on that, right?? If you told me 'there are some really interesting creatures that live so deep light can't penetrate, so they use self-generated light sources to hunt', I could just as easily say to you 'have you ever been on a deep sea submarine expedition, or are you just quoting and repeating off some website?'. My point is, I am no more an expert on Bateys than you are on Deep Sea Exploration or (in the event that you ARE actually an expert on Deep Sea Exploration lol) any other thing that you probably have NOT done personally, but like most people have gained a relative amount of knowledge about the matter from various sources of information.
    I have NEVER been to a Batey, but in a nutshell I know Haitians are drawn over the border with promises of better jobs, then put to work in the Batey's where they cut sugar cane. I know many of them are illegal (as you mentioned) because for most who work on the Bateys their identifications are taken. I know the majority of the Sugar cane crop comes right here to the States due to preferential trade agreements. I know that the top Sugar families have government officials 'bought' both there and here. I know the Bateys are generally ran like a plantation, where there workers receive little or no medical care, have no 'real' rights, can not come and go as they please and are not paid a decent salary (if paid at all since they usually are just given food vouchers), and live in dire poverty. Fortunately for me I did not have to go to a Batey to come to those conclusions, but I'm sure you can tell me just as much information about Deep Sea Creatures.

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    Well as a Dominican who has studied our culture extensively, there is a level of discrimination of Haitians but not others blacks, except Jamicians. You see part of the problem is your not seeing the whole picture, the roles have reversed. For many years when the Haitians were one of the most powerful nations in the caribbean, they were extremely abusive of Dominicans, the constant betrayal when they promised assistance, their manifest destiny to kill all the Dominicans and take control of the Island, etc. So as the world act like Haitians are just poor people who need help, they forget the horror caused by the Haitians, during their reign. Now are all Haitians bad, no, I have two that I work with and they and their families are very nice people, but the reality is we must always keep our guard. After the earthquake, no American news organization documented the Haitians that cross the border and killed a small town of 200 Dominicans (child, woman and man). All you see is what is shown to you without studying the entire picture. Similar to Obama constantly stating we should be one country. Just to show you how far the divide is the Island is called Santo Dominique (no not Hispanola) as recorded in history, but the Haitians refuse the name and want the island to be called Haiti because at one time for a period of less then 20 years they had control of the Island, because of the French. As for Jamicians it's only because of when they attempted to invade DR.

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    Interesting theory by Richard Lee, I wonder who was his source. It's interesting how you enter the 20 century and everyone forgets the atrocities the Haitians did against the Dominicans of the 19 century. Unfortunately you can not take one moment in time and assume it is that reason and that reason alone. And it's interesting his statements, since my family is from El campo and my great grandmother born in the 19 century spoke of the atrocities caused by the Haitians. And mind you we are Indio and in our region we still hold much sway only second to the Mirabales and Fernandez.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miacol View Post
    Well as a Dominican who has studied our culture extensively, there is a level of discrimination of Haitians but not others blacks, except Jamicians. You see part of the problem is your not seeing the whole picture, the roles have reversed. For many years when the Haitians were one of the most powerful nations in the caribbean, they were extremely abusive of Dominicans, the constant betrayal when they promised assistance, their manifest destiny to kill all the Dominicans and take control of the Island, etc. So as the world act like Haitians are just poor people who need help, they forget the horror caused by the Haitians, during their reign. Now are all Haitians bad, no, I have two that I work with and they and their families are very nice people, but the reality is we must always keep our guard. After the earthquake, no American news organization documented the Haitians that cross the border and killed a small town of 200 Dominicans (child, woman and man). All you see is what is shown to you without studying the entire picture. Similar to Obama constantly stating we should be one country. Just to show you how far the divide is the Island is called Santo Dominique (no not Hispanola) as recorded in history, but the Haitians refuse the name and want the island to be called Haiti because at one time for a period of less then 20 years they had control of the Island, because of the French. As for Jamicians it's only because of when they attempted to invade DR.
    when did obama say haiti and the dr should be one country?

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    first of all, Miacol, i will take the liberty to assume that by Jamicians you really intend to mean Jamaicans. secondly, kindly refer me to a link or text which documents this attempted invasion of the DR. i have never heard of this, and i am a man of advancing years. i am all ears, so, fire away.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miacol View Post
    Interesting theory by Richard Lee, I wonder who was his source. It's interesting how you enter the 20 century and everyone forgets the atrocities the Haitians did against the Dominicans of the 19 century. Unfortunately you can not take one moment in time and assume it is that reason and that reason alone. And it's interesting his statements, since my family is from El campo and my great grandmother born in the 19 century spoke of the atrocities caused by the Haitians. And mind you we are Indio and in our region we still hold much sway only second to the Mirabales and Fernandez.
    his source were interviews he led with peasents (dominican and haitian) that lived at the time. they all stated that they were living peacefully with hatians, that there were marriages between hatians and dominicans, and that due to the constant crossing of very flexible borders, a clear distinction between hatians and dominicans could not be made. go read the book or article before you dismiss his theory (if you can't get ahold of a copy of the article pm me). he toured the country for many years to interview peasents to find out about their relation with trujillo. the main thesis of his book is that the peasents were the backbone of the trujillo regime.
    but in order to prove his theory he also wrote some very interesting chapters on the time before trujillo and one on the massacre.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Miacol
    After the earthquake, no American news organization documented the Haitians that cross the border and killed a small town of 200 Dominicans (child, woman and man).
    After the 2010 earthquake???

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