There has been a lot of talk of killing suspects by the Police or by victims. Keeping in mind that human life is the highest value that we collectively have. What is you opinion?
- Thread starter SantiagueroRD
- Start date
Extrajudicial Executions
This has long been and will continue to be debated all over the world....look how many people sit on death row at the expense of the tax payers and years go by without termination of the inmate due to law changes, reprevail etc....it all depends on the circumstances, however I am not sure I would agree with vigilantism....but again I have never been in any circumstance that may warrant it...thankfully
To clarify what I am asking about are opinions of different scenarios. Extra judicial by law enforcement, extra judicial by say neighbors for want of a better term (lynching), self defense of property, and self defense of persons. All of these are in the Dominican news daily and frequently referred to here.
I am referring to murders either by government officials or civilians not government capital punishment. The DR does not have the death penalty by statute.
Ok..Ok...If brought into a circumstance where there was an emminent life threatning circumstance then I would defend myself and family to whatever means necessary to protect them....and again it all depends on circumstance......say for example the chica that killed someone for changing the TV channel...then NO..its not the same thing....
Point a gun at a police officer and the odds of seeing the sunrise again will be just about zero.
"Self defense is not a murder neither an extrajudiciial execution." I concur that la Mariposa is correct that a true self defense is a homicide not a murder but I was trying Socratically to spur some awareness of the differences of categories of homicides and the opinions that folks here have of current events in the DR on this subject.
"Point a gun at a police officer and the odds of seeing the sunrise again will be just about zero." You got that right! If the third rarely discussed option of fight or flight namely "freeze" does not occur!!
We are talking about hypothetical situations. Here is a real case. I was shot in the throat by 2 guys - well one pulled the trigger and the other one told him to - dale. They were arrested. One had a Canadian girlfriend who paid 1000 US$ to get them both out. Out within 2 weeks. 3 months later they beat an old Canadian man to death with baseball bats. Both arrested and sentenced to 30 years. A year later their sister pays 16,000 RD$ and gets them out again. They went back to their casita which was around 500 metres from my house.
So, what would you do???
Matilda
So, what would you do???
Matilda
Last edited:
"We are talking about hypothetical situations. Here is a real case. I was shot in the throat by 2 guys - well one pulled the trigger and the other one told him to - dale. They were arrested. One had a Canadian girlfriend who paid 1000 US$ to get them both out. Out within 2 weeks. 3 months later they beat an old Canadian man to death with baseball bats. Both arrested and sentenced to 30 years. A year later their sister pays 16,000 RD$ and gets them out again. They went back to their casita which was around 500 metres from my house.
So, what would you do???
Matilda
I am not sure as I have a very different background from most of the posters here but to try and honestly answer your question I would move.
So, what would you do???
Matilda
I am not sure as I have a very different background from most of the posters here but to try and honestly answer your question I would move.
I am not sure as I have a very different background from most of the posters here but to try and honestly answer your question I would move.[/QUOTE]
You were asking about executions, not about whether i should move or not. So in this case would you execute the guy?
mat
You were asking about executions, not about whether i should move or not. So in this case would you execute the guy?
mat
Well you know what they say about karma and I am sure that they would have a terrible "accident"
Police assassination in Barahona in November 2010
Last year I witnessed a police assassination in Barahona, where two prisoners that were taken to the public hospital tried to escape and one (unarmed) was killed by the police. He was shot from a distance, completely disabled and writhing on the ground, then the police officer came up and shot him point blank in the leg at a spot where he would bleed out. The police would not allow anyone near him or take him to the hospital. Dozens of people, including doctors from the hospital, watched as he bleed out and died over a period of THIRTY MINUTES. Half an hour after he died, an hour after being shot, and after the school children had already passed by to check out the dead body, did they roll out a stretcher from the morgue to pick him up. BTW, the emergency room was closer than the morgue...
I was inside a nearby building with headphones on, and when I came out he had just died, but I collected pics of when he was just shot and still alive, with time tags, in case anyone is interested or knows where I could send them to where it would actually matter. One of the photos shows the guy sitting up in the street after being shot. All of this was reported to the local police and reported in local media as a police assassination, but nothing has happened and this was in November of 2010.
Matan un recluso de dos que intentaron escaparse en las afuera del hospital Jaime Mota de Barahona; la custodia policial resulto herido : Cuatriboliao.Net
Then again, if I cause to much of a stir the police might just execute me too.
Last year I witnessed a police assassination in Barahona, where two prisoners that were taken to the public hospital tried to escape and one (unarmed) was killed by the police. He was shot from a distance, completely disabled and writhing on the ground, then the police officer came up and shot him point blank in the leg at a spot where he would bleed out. The police would not allow anyone near him or take him to the hospital. Dozens of people, including doctors from the hospital, watched as he bleed out and died over a period of THIRTY MINUTES. Half an hour after he died, an hour after being shot, and after the school children had already passed by to check out the dead body, did they roll out a stretcher from the morgue to pick him up. BTW, the emergency room was closer than the morgue...
I was inside a nearby building with headphones on, and when I came out he had just died, but I collected pics of when he was just shot and still alive, with time tags, in case anyone is interested or knows where I could send them to where it would actually matter. One of the photos shows the guy sitting up in the street after being shot. All of this was reported to the local police and reported in local media as a police assassination, but nothing has happened and this was in November of 2010.
Matan un recluso de dos que intentaron escaparse en las afuera del hospital Jaime Mota de Barahona; la custodia policial resulto herido : Cuatriboliao.Net
Then again, if I cause to much of a stir the police might just execute me too.
A loooooooong time ago there were no Police or jails, there only existed one thing: Justice done by your own peeers...
Leave it to humanity to find an excuse for anything or anyone to go horribly wrong, and that's what we call justice today via laws.
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, was more than what a saying it became as of late epochs...
I honestly believe all life is precious and we as men, have little right to decide when to end others. But today we live in a world that's far, far away from an Utopia we wished for to live on.
Back in the ole ages, the victim's kin were the ones that decided if to impart the sentence or to pardon the criminal. Today we have laws, lawyers, judges, cops and even the media to carry out those same terms.
I was very fascinated by ancient civilizations when a student, much due to how I perceived older and by today's standards "barbaric and primitive" cultures of yore. The problem with me and those "labels" rested much on how people used the standards of their time (era, development and etc..) to pass judgement on those same civilizations deemed at such low levels.
I posed a question to my History teacher once about this same subject! She was taken by surprise at first but then offered what I consider to this date the best take on the subject:
Most of the criminal laws and codes for which most well developed societies provided for the advances in what we call the civilized world today, were written or enacted by people that seldom if ever, were victims themselves of the same crimes their own people had to confront in their daily lives...
She said that Politics and Trade were the main tool used by which way the ruling class achieved those societies' advances, to the sacrifices made by the masses.
It's easy to see when a banker steals money from their own institutions and people, yet are faced with less punitive charges than those that break into a home and carry away a mere few bucks.
They use "violence" as a way to determine who's to get what harsher penalty or leniency.
In the DR justice by your peers still is alive and well...
Leave it to humanity to find an excuse for anything or anyone to go horribly wrong, and that's what we call justice today via laws.
An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, was more than what a saying it became as of late epochs...
I honestly believe all life is precious and we as men, have little right to decide when to end others. But today we live in a world that's far, far away from an Utopia we wished for to live on.
Back in the ole ages, the victim's kin were the ones that decided if to impart the sentence or to pardon the criminal. Today we have laws, lawyers, judges, cops and even the media to carry out those same terms.
I was very fascinated by ancient civilizations when a student, much due to how I perceived older and by today's standards "barbaric and primitive" cultures of yore. The problem with me and those "labels" rested much on how people used the standards of their time (era, development and etc..) to pass judgement on those same civilizations deemed at such low levels.
I posed a question to my History teacher once about this same subject! She was taken by surprise at first but then offered what I consider to this date the best take on the subject:
Most of the criminal laws and codes for which most well developed societies provided for the advances in what we call the civilized world today, were written or enacted by people that seldom if ever, were victims themselves of the same crimes their own people had to confront in their daily lives...
She said that Politics and Trade were the main tool used by which way the ruling class achieved those societies' advances, to the sacrifices made by the masses.
It's easy to see when a banker steals money from their own institutions and people, yet are faced with less punitive charges than those that break into a home and carry away a mere few bucks.
They use "violence" as a way to determine who's to get what harsher penalty or leniency.
In the DR justice by your peers still is alive and well...
Barahona .- The prisoner Ram?n Torres Medrano (a) Jimani, was killed by multiple shots on the afternoon of Thursday, when he and another prisoner stripped of his gun the National Police corporal Bores Espinosa L?pez impacting him with several blows to the head in the bathroom leaving him unconscious at the health center and managed to escape with the weapon of regulation of the custody, but as they made their exit from the health center a policeman shot him several times that resulted in the death of the convicted criminal sentenced to 15 years in jail for murder.
According to the releases both prisoners were taken to the hospital to get medical test results, took the opportunity to attack the police who guarded them in the bathroom. The named Carlos Suero Mej?a (a) Swat, managed to escape with the weapon of the wounded policeman who is being treated in hospital emergency area.
A wide operation was ordered by police to the whereabouts of the prisoner who managed to escape.
Dozens of onlookers appeared on the scene to witness the body of Ramon Medrano Torres (a) Jimani, whose body lay in a pool of blood on the pavement outside the hospital and according to versions of some residents of the sector they let him bleed to death.
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The corporal was lucky he didn't make the next victim on the pair's long sheet of murders...
Fortunately, most Bad Guys know that.
My ATF Dominican Street Justice act was the ladrone in San Cristobal, 3-4 years ago, who went one step too far and stole a girls passola. A mob chased him on motos, caught him, beat him with concrete block and wooden sticks, stabbed him, shot him and then wheeled the limp body around the streets for 3 hours before unceremonously dumping him in the doorstep of a public hospital, thoroughly dead.
That makes a statement.
Those actions are occuring because many people believe that the National Police is not doing enough to arrest most criminals when they do one of their 'trades.'
The Dominican media doesn't necessarily helps in containing this perception, since its quite obvious the Dominican media has much more freedom to show and say almost anything they want, but even worst (IMO), create a perception of insecurity that would lead people to themselves commit acts of 'justice.'
We all know Dominican news reporting is much more crude and sensational than is news reporting in say the USA, and they have much more liberty to create perceptions of crime and insecurity that would far surpass anything the media in the USA would be allowed to create, based solely on self-censorship and considerations of tactfulness (ie. not showing the decomposing bodies of victims, or the histerical reaction of many victims of all sorts of crime, etc).
This is a hypothesis I'm still developing, but its partly based on FBI data of offenses cleared (ie. criminals that were arrested after commiting a crime). Much to my surprise, most property crimes remain unsolved in the United States. Depending on the crime, it can range from a whopping 78.5% to as much as 87.6% of property criminals remaining in impunity.
With violent crime the figures can range from 33.4% of murderers remaining in impunity to as high as 71.8% of robberies criminals remaining in impunity. 58.8% of rapists in 2009 were never arrested!
And these are just the crimes that were reported to the authorities, so the level of impunity must be much greater.
This is quite shocking considering that in the United States people don't perceive impunity to be at the very high levels they truly are. What else could explain the disconnect between reality and perception in the US than how the media covers these issues.
Right now I'm inclined towards this being more of a perception problem. Most crimes remain unsolved even in the USA, but in the DR people seem to be much more aware of this fact, not so Americans or even Dominicans living in the USA.
Of course, there are many other factors to be taken into account, but this all still very shocking.
Offenses Cleared - Crime in the United States 2009