Sonia Pierre dead??

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Chip

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Rest in peace.

It's commendable she cared for her people but I just don't agree with her methods of pointing most of the blame at Dominicans.
 

ExtremeR

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There's one thing I will always agree with her. The fact that Haitians are not declared Dominicans on birth in the DR I find it to be a coward solution to the immigration problem in the DR. Any kid born in the DR should be Dominican period. But that's my POV.
 

windeguy

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There's one thing I will always agree with her. The fact that Haitians are not declared Dominicans on birth in the DR I find it to be a coward solution to the immigration problem in the DR. Any kid born in the DR should be Dominican period. But that's my POV.

My point of view is the opposite on that issue. I disagree with jus soli and the DR is correct not to have it.
 

dv8

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her wiki profile states: On December 4, 2011, Sonia died from a heart attack at the age of 48 in Villa Altagracia, San Crist?bal, Dominican Republic.
may she rest in peace.
 

Chip

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My point of view is the opposite on that issue. I disagree with jus soli and the DR is correct not to have it.

I honestly think he is just being pc because most who live here know what would happen to a law like this - Dominicans could very easily lose their identity in a matter of generations especially as a kreyol speaking electorate makes their votes felt and increases their influence. I'm very sure the Dominican politicians know this.

Of course if the even more worthless Haitian politicians cared about their fellow man there wouldn't be the hundreds of thousands of Haitians here even before the earthquake.

I expect Sonia Pierre wasn't necessarily interested in what's best for the DR but what she believed was best for the Haitian people. I believe she just found it easier to draw the international community's ire toward the DR as opposed to getting Haitians to fix Haiti instead.

Maybe 30 years down the road things will change when Haiti is a competitor to the DR as opposed to sending a very large portion of it's most destitute here. Until then changing the law would be disastrous for everyone on this island, including the Haitians here, not in the short term of course but in the long term.
 
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Of course if the even more worthless Haitian politicians cared about their fellow man there wouldn't be the hundreds of thousands of Haitians here even before the earthquake.

I expect Sonia Pierre wasn't necessarily interested in what's best for the DR but what she believed was best for the Haitian people. I believe she just found it easier to draw the international community's ire toward the DR as opposed to getting Haitians to fix Haiti instead.

Bingo! Give that man a prize.
 

NALs

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There's one thing I will always agree with her. The fact that Haitians are not declared Dominicans on birth in the DR I find it to be a coward solution to the immigration problem in the DR. Any kid born in the DR should be Dominican period. But that's my POV.
Considering that the sons/daughters born to legal Haitian migrants are officially declared Dominican upon birth with no qualms what-so-ever, the issue is not that they're Haitians, but rather illegals.

I know many people have done a tremendous job in attempting to confuse the public with this (Solange was a prominent proponent of this confusion), but lets not continue to assume that things are the way they're not. To this day, children born on Dominican soil to foreign diplomats are not given Dominican citizenship and neither do the children of illegal immigrants or of those not permanently living in the country.

Regarding her death, I'm rather indifferent about this.

She did fought for what she believed to be right and that's commendable but, she went about this completely the wrong way and that is definitely NOT commendable.

The main problem I had with her was that at times she would make you feel bad for her and her cause since it would appear as if she truly meant what she said, but then you will see signs related to her that simply confirmed what has been suspected all along.

I'll give three examples:

1. Whenever she wanted to challenge any aspect of Dominican laws regarding citizenship, she went through the local judicial system, which was the correct way. Her case would reach the Supreme Court, which is the highest court in the Dominican judiciary and what is decided at that level is FINAL, it's the law of the land. You can't try to go beyond the Supreme Court whether is in the DR, the US or anywhere. But, the Supreme Court would rule in a way that she was not satisfied and then she went to supranational institutions with half-truths, all in attempts to annul the final say of the Dominican Supreme Court on an issue that pertains to Dominican laws on Dominican soil. That is an attempt against the sovereignty and independence of ANY nation, and was and continues to be completely unacceptable. What the Supreme Court decides is what's final, whomever likes it or not, and that should had been the end of the issue.

Los trapos sucios se lavan en casa.

2. She often claimed that she was against the children of (illegal, albeit she never mentioned this word) Haitians born in the DR being stateless. Lets ignore the fact that the Dominican constitution and the Haitian constitution do, in fact, complement each other; since the Dominican constitution states that the sons/daughters of illegals must be given the citizenship of their parents and the Haitian constitution states that the sons/daughters of any Haitian born anywhere in the world is automatically entitled to Haitian citizenship. As such, the rise of "stateless" children was due to careless parents than with any legal complications, since the laws on both side of the island have always been crystal clear.

But lets assume ignorance on that 'minor' aspect. One would had thought that she was truly against the existence of stateless children. I even began to believe that until the Libro de extranjer?a, also known as the Pink Book, was created to register all newborns of illegal immigrants and have them receive the proper documentation from their country of origin (aka, jus sanguinis).

Why did I lost faith in her suppose 'worry for the stateless kids?'

As soon as the Libro de extranjer?a was made public by Dominican authorities and the Haitian authorities even praised the creation of such as a positive sign toward resolving the issue, she and her like strongly condemned the move! They opposed the creation of the Libro de extranjer?a and that reaction made it very clear that they were not as much interested in eliminating the issue of the stateless children, but were simply interesting in overriding the law the Supreme Court had already cleared up regarding the prerequisites for being granted Dominican citizenship upon birth. Solange didn't care that the stateless kids would no longer be stateless, she didn't wanted the Haitian kids of illegal Haitian immigrants being given Haitian citizenship, despite being completely legal based on both, the Haitian and Dominican constitution, and being praised by the Haitian government.

3. Several months after the earthquake in Haiti (I believe it was October or November of that year), I saw an interview that was done to her for which I don't even remember what position she was taking regarding the issue of both, Haitians in Haiti after the earthquake and the whole illegal immigration problem (although I repeat once more, she NEVER ever mentioned the words illegal immigration in any of her interviews, a set of words which are fundamental to her 'battles') in the DR.

What distracted me so much that prevented me from putting attention to the interview?

She was sitting behind a desk, I guess it was done in her office, and in the background there was a small pole with a flag on it. It was one of those small poles that you would put on a desk, in this case it was on top of a small bookshelf.

What flag was on that pole?

The Haitian flag. I spent the rest of the interview searching for a Dominican symbol, whether it was the flag, the coat of arms, a map, a picture of either Duarte or Mella or S?nchez or even Luper?n. There was nothing, absolutely nothing! Just the flag of Haiti.

I don't know why she did that, because she had to be conscious the impact symbols, especially in the background on a televised interview that would also be seen by thousands, perhaps millions, of Dominicans, would have on the overall message of the interview.

Was it to irritate Dominicans? Was it to show her support to Haiti? What caused her to do that? Was it simply a detail she overlooked, but then we have to wonder why she would have to be conscious of putting a Dominican symbol to be seen in a televised interview?

That was the issue I had with her. One moment she would claim one thing and make you feel sorry for her, but then she would do things that were subtle and almost always only a Dominican would notice, and those things contradicted whatever she claimed before to be fighting for. It almost played quite well into the inherent suspicion that most Dominicans have towards this issue, particularly when it related to her and her suppose cause.

She was a hero to the Haitian community in the DR, there's no question about that.

She probably meant well, there are few questions about that.

But she decided to take the longest, windiest, most bothersome path in an attempt of achieving her goals, which only her knew exactly what they were. She would claim one thing with her mouth and then her actions would show something else.

A part of me wants to wish her a nice final farewell, but another part of me does not; hence my indifference.
 
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Chip

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If anybody was offended by my comment about Sonia, let me say I hope she made/makes in to heaven.

Still, she was naive it best and worst ignorant of the very negative effects of giving illegal children of Haitians here Dominican citizenship; given the porous and long border a large part of the Western half of the island would emigrate over here and never leave. While I suppose I can't expect anyone who has not lived here to understand the severely negative implications, the ones that do live here are well aware I'm sure.

Does this mean I'm against Haitian children getting an education? Of course not. Something should be done for them of course. However, I suspect most of those supposedly interested in the future of the undocumented children are the typical pc type that do the convenient and popular thing and pick the latest whipping boy, in this case the DR, as opposed to doing something constructive like supporting missionary causes dedicated to Haitian illegals here or supporting missions or NGO's in Haiti or writing their congressmen to increase the number of Haitian immigrants allowed due to economic hardship. Such a shame too.
 

minerva_feliz

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Paz a sus restos.

She will long be remembered and her work will go on. Even her death generates dialogue and reflection about what she dedicated her life to fighting for.

Shame on those who speak so crudely of such a person, whether or not they agree with her standpoints and methods. (comments on the Accent article and FB).
 

deelt

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Mar 23, 2004
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A Great Loss

Aaah, some things never change here on dr1.

NALs is still producing porous allegations.

All Sonia wanted was to be recognized in the land she was born.
It makes sense given that she had never stepped Haitian soil.
To grant her that birthright is just the humanitarian thing to do.

Oh, and don't dominicans about rock the dr flags on their cars?
I remember a US Navy officer of Dominican descent getting off a vessel, with family awaiting wit h a huge ass dominican flag. I doubt he would consifer himself less than American on the battlefield. It is possible yo be proud of your heritage, and still love the country where you were born.
 

windeguy

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All Sonia wanted was to be recognized in the land she was born.
It makes sense given that she had never stepped Haitian soil.
To grant her that birthright is just the humanitarian thing to do.

It makes NO sense at all to have given that women or any other person citizenship in the DR simply for being born here. Others have made very clear that great damage could be done to the DR by providing birthright citizenship. I am against the fact that my home country does so.
 

Chip

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I see the US situation as different in that the US is the largest consumer market in the world, it has traditionally been able to produce jobs and the amount of illegal immigrants having children is a lot less percentage wise than the DR, ie I don't see how this policy has adversely affected the US.

Some say that the increasing Hispanic demographic in the States is due to this but I believe it has more to do with Hispanics being largely Catholic and believe in a large family and are against abortion which are two recipes for lots of kids.

In summary, the US situation is very different than the Dominican one. Some say there were more than 1M illegal Haitians in the country before the earthquake. If that's true there must be three million now. For a country of 9M that's a lot.
 

suarezn

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I agree with Jus Sanguinis and no it's not because I'm being politically correct. If you're born and grow up in The DR even though you come from Haitian descent you should be a DR citizen. So what are we afraid of? That we have a large part of the population speaking Kreyol? So what? We already do. They're coming over anyway, so it's in our interest to get these people assimilated into The Dominican society, learn proper Spanish, go to school, etc. Guess what? If we did this those kids in a generation or two won't consider themselves any more Haitians than any of us consider ourselves Spanish, British or wherever our ancestors came from.

The fact is the powers that be want to keep this population uneducated and suppressed because they're a great source of really cheap labor.
 

windeguy

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I agree with Jus Sanguinis and no it's not because I'm being politically correct. If you're born and grow up in The DR even though you come from Haitian descent you should be a DR citizen. So what are we afraid of? That we have a large part of the population speaking Kreyol? So what? We already do. They're coming over anyway, so it's in our interest to get these people assimilated into The Dominican society, learn proper Spanish, go to school, etc. Guess what? If we did this those kids in a generation or two won't consider themselves any more Haitians than any of us consider ourselves Spanish, British or wherever our ancestors came from.

The fact is the powers that be want to keep this population uneducated and suppressed because they're a great source of really cheap labor.

I think you meant to say you believe in Jus Soli. The DR has Jus Sanguinis.
 

Chip

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I agree with Jus Sanguinis and no it's not because I'm being politically correct. If you're born and grow up in The DR even though you come from Haitian descent you should be a DR citizen. So what are we afraid of? That we have a large part of the population speaking Kreyol? So what? We already do. They're coming over anyway, so it's in our interest to get these people assimilated into The Dominican society, learn proper Spanish, go to school, etc. Guess what? If we did this those kids in a generation or two won't consider themselves any more Haitians than any of us consider ourselves Spanish, British or wherever our ancestors came from.

The fact is the powers that be want to keep this population uneducated and suppressed because they're a great source of really cheap labor.

Your concept works great assuming there will be assimilation.

However, history would suggest actually quite the opposite, ie when large groups are able to emigrate into an area they have a tendency to keep their language and custom. Just look at the growing Hispanic population in the US. When the DR gives Haitians more of a reason to come here, they will, by the millions and they will bring their language and customs -political as well no doubt. We don't need anymore mismanagement here, thanks.
 

greydread

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The fact is the powers that be want to keep this population uneducated and suppressed because they're a great source of really cheap labor.

Let's don't forget the need to keep the little people at all oppressed levels bickering amongst one another about crossing this or that line or speaking this or that language or whatever other argument the flashpoint item-du-jour dictates. Meanwhile a select few muticultural/ multilingual banks who (that's right. "Who". They're not only "persons" now but the most important "persons" in the room) collectively OWN everything, anywhere worth owning and operate with ease across international boundaries while people line up for inspection and acceptance or risk their very lives just trying to escape whatever Hell they're trying to get away from.

I remember a Sam Kinneson joke about starving ethiopians with the punchline "GO WHERE THE FOOD IS!". Poor Sam died before he realized that there's a long line and guys with big guns and the folks who are already there would rather throw the food away than invite their neighbors in for dinner.

...and people wonder why there's so much strife....


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greydread

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Your concept works great assuming there will be assimilation.

However, history would suggest actually quite the opposite, ie when large groups are able to emigrate into an area they have a tendency to keep their language and custom. Just look at the growing Hispanic population in the US. When the DR gives Haitians more of a reason to come here, they will, by the millions and they will bring their language and customs -political as well no doubt. We don't need anymore mismanagement here, thanks.

The areas being affected by the "migration" of that "growing Hispanic population" USED TO BE MEXICO. California, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, Texas...

Putting up a fence along a Man-made border makes as much sense as putting a shopping mall in the middle of the migratory path of herds of deer. Get ready for problems when the seasons change. If you (the Dominican Republic/ US/ anybody) spend several entire generations in search of a source of cheap labor, conditioning the population of a neighboring Country (Haiti/ Mexico/ anybody) to migrate into yours in search of jobs how does anyone expect to just turn off the switch after all those generations? Until the invention of Labor Robots the search for cheap labor for backbreaking tasks will continue to have "cutural cross-contamination" consequences. If it really bothered the guys who run things they'd let the cane rot.
 

Chip

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The areas being affected by the "migration" of that "growing Hispanic population" USED TO BE MEXICO. California, Arizona, Colorado, New Mexico, Texas...

Putting up a fence along a Man-made border makes as much sense as putting a shopping mall in the middle of the migratory path of herds of deer. Get ready for problems when the seasons change. If you (the Dominican Republic/ US/ anybody) spend several entire generations in search of a source of cheap labor, conditioning the population of a neighboring Country (Haiti/ Mexico/ anybody) to migrate into yours in search of jobs how does anyone expect to just turn off the switch after all those generations? Until the invention of Labor Robots the search for cheap labor for backbreaking tasks will continue to have "cutural cross-contamination" consequences. If it really bothered the guys who run things they'd let the cane rot.

I see you rarely bother to read more that the first two letters of my posts. We are not discussing US immigration policy here.

You want to make a class battle here in the DR and would like to see the Haitian immigrant as the hero. The Haitians have mismanaged their resources for so long we'd rather not have those problems here in the DR and I'm sure the Dominican politicians here won't be doing anything to give up the sovereignty anytime soon no matter how much the pc arm chair warriors like you complain.
 
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