"The extinction of the Taino is a myth!"

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NALs

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Dr. LYNNE GUITAR, Reclaiming Taino Heritage in the Dominican Republic

Here is a recently uploaded and very interesting video regarding findings, both genetic and anthropologically, of the survival of Taino genes and culture among Dominicans. I ask of those of you interested in this, to at least watch much of the video, especially the parts where Dr. Guitar expresses her findings, prior to voting.

For an odd reason, the video has a Spanish introduction with no English subtitles. Dr. Lynne Guitar starts speaking in English with no Spanish subtitles at 3:08 minutes and the rest of the video remains in English with no Spanish subtitles. I don’t know why they did the video like this, but whatever. Bilinguals will have no problem, the rest will not be missing much from the introduction.

[video=youtube;dKoRZMBcKIY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKoRZMBcKIY[/video]
 
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NALs

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Extra videos that touches other aspects of the research that has been done on the Tainos in the Caribbean and their legacy. Don't base your votes on the following videos, these are just to add extra information on the genetic findings and on the Taino identity in the Caribbean.

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Dr. JUAN MART?NEZ CRUZADO, American Indigenous DNA: Current Research in the Caribbean

This video suffers from the same problem as the initial one in this thread. It is bilingual with no subtitles, however this video alternates from one language to another. The parts where Dr. Mart?nez gives an explanation to a live audience is in English, the much more personal sections are in Spanish.

[video=youtube;zGx9NHEa-BE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGx9NHEa-BE[/video]
 

NALs

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Dr. JOSEPH PALACIO (GARIFUNA), Beyond Extinction: Caribbean Indigeneity

This video is fully in English.

[video=youtube;j0of211RUgg]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0of211RUgg[/video]
 

LTSteve

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Jul 9, 2010
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When historians talk about extinction of the Tainos I think they are talking more in a general sense of a people and it's culture. Yes there are many people that can claim "Indian" blood. It is not hard to see it in their faces. In North American there are many Indian Tribes that survive as a group. In the DR I don't think you will find a concentrated number of people living together who call themselves Taino. The Spanish did a very effective job in making this happen. The Taino and Arawak as they existed on Oct 11 1492 were forever changed, enslaved, diseased and hunted down until they no longer were a tribal people.

LTSteve
 

Chip

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Jul 25, 2007
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When historians talk about extinction of the Tainos I think they are talking more in a general sense of a people and it's culture.

Is there another type of extinction???

BTW, Dr. Lynn Guitar's video refutes much of what you say. I recommend you watch the video through to the end. Based on the DNA evidence and culture, etc it is evident that the Taino's existed as tribes much longer that the biased historians have reported.
 

Criss Colon

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Jan 2, 2002
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yahoomail.com
I think the "Indios" still, "Walk Among Us Today"!
At least according to every black Dominican I EVER met!
They all say, "Yo Soy "INDIO"!
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
 

Olvidado

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Jun 19, 2012
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“Ayer espa?ol nac?
A la tarde fui franc?s
A la noche et?ope fu?
Hoy dicen que soy ingl?s
Dios mio, No s? qu? ser? de m?.”

I learned this when I was a child. Sorry do not remember the author. Truly sorry.
 

Olvidado

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Jun 19, 2012
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Everyone saw Fernando Rodney, in the WBC, holding the platano. "This is what we are", He said, "This is what sustain us; this is where we came from" Pretty smart ball player!
 

NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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I think the "Indios" still, "Walk Among Us Today"!
At least according to every black Dominican I EVER met!
They all say, "Yo Soy "INDIO"!
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
In every census where racial/color identification has been required, a significant number of Dominicans identify as black. Otherwise, every census should report 0% black for the Dominican population, something that has never occurred since the 1920s, when the first census was made. This is an interesting aspect that many people 'forget' to take into account.
 

LTSteve

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Jul 9, 2010
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Are we really debating whether the Spanish did an effective job in wiping out a peoples' way of life in the name of greed? Yes small pockets may have survived. My point was they don't exist the way that Native Americans do in the USA and Canada today.

LTSteve
 

Criss Colon

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Jan 2, 2002
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"Nals", care to elaborate on "Significant Number"????
My "Informal Poll" has the number of Dominicans who "Self Identify" as "Black" at ZERO!!!
Maybe that's part of their "Self Loathing" problems!
How can they "Like", and "HELP" each other, as a "PEOPLE", when they don't like themselves as individuals???
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
They are still making "Crackers" here!
"Tainos" Galletas are really good, must be an "Olde Family Receipt"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
 

chrisrose97

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May 2, 2010
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Tainos and Tainas are alive and well, just mixed up with Spanish and Black, and we get the Indios and Indias.
I should know, I married one! My wife looks every bit indigenous with her tan skin and black hair and chinese-like eyes. Her family is from Pimentel.

My favorite pastime is watching Indias in DR! ;) Yessirrrrr!
 

kdolo

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Mar 9, 2009
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"Nals", care to elaborate on "Significant Number"????
My "Informal Poll" has the number of Dominicans who "Self Identify" as "Black" at ZERO!!!
Maybe that's part of their "Self Loathing" problems!
How can they "Like", and "HELP" each other, as a "PEOPLE", when they don't like themselves as individuals???
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
They are still making "Crackers" here!
"Tainos" Galletas are really good, must be an "Olde Family Receipt"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

Self-Loathing ??? surely it exists, but this isn't the actual problem in the DR. It is the ACTUAL loathing by those who are not "black" - who also happen to control the politics, media, economy,.

So the issue is not just how they can help themselves, but rather when are those who are in a position to help going to relinquish their white supremacist ideologies in order to do so ??

Stop Blaming the Victim.
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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"Nals", care to elaborate on "Significant Number"????
My "Informal Poll" has the number of Dominicans who "Self Identify" as "Black" at ZERO!!!
Maybe that's part of their "Self Loathing" problems!
How can they "Like", and "HELP" each other, as a "PEOPLE", when they don't like themselves as individuals???
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
They are still making "Crackers" here!
"Tainos" Galletas are really good, must be an "Olde Family Receipt"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
I have never seen a Dominican census where people identifying as black has been lower than 10%. In a few censuses during the Trujillo era, upwards of a quarter of the population identified as black. Most of the population was categorized in the mulatto category (indio in Dominican jargon, but in the official data indio has never been used, even during the Trujillo years), and during the various censuses in the 20th century, whites ranged from 13% at the lowest to slightly above a quarter at the highest.

Also, you can't ignore the fact that autosomal DNA findings on Dominican population registered a DNA with 6.7% Indigenous, 38.9% African, and 54.3% European/Middle Eastern (as you know, arabs are considered white in the DR due to most descending from Lebanese immigrants). These are average DNA compositions on the average Dominican as recent as 2012. (http://www.dnatribes.com/dnatribes-snp-admixture-2012-03-12.pdf)

Phenotype doesn't always equals actual genetic makeup since many of those that look blacker actually have greater European DNA than their appearance would suggest and many of those that look whiter actually are much blacker than they appear too. But, the point is that significant racial mixture, with significant European and African components, is almost universal within the Dominican population; and this is true among those that look mixed, most of those that look black and even much of those that look white.

Look at your own wife as evidence of this. Remember when you said this?

Criss Colon said:
"Mi Morenita Dominicana" spent a winter on Long Island caring for a termanally ill "Anciana Dominicana".
When I went to Boston to meet her after 6 months on LI.,I didn't recognize her.
"Pero Que Blanca"!
I'll take "Morenita" any day.
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC
That is not something that happens to "pure blooded" people or even people with an overwhelmingly genetic origin of African descent. What you described is quite common among Dominicans and there is a reason for that that many want to make believe doesn't exist.
 
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NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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Returning back to the Taino topic, according to the findings, 18% of Dominicans have Taino mitochondrial DNA, which is inherited with no mutations from the maternal line. This, however, doesn't mean that only 18% of Dominicans have Taino DNA, since Taino genes are also present on many people that don't have Taino mitochondrial DNA or Taino Y-chromosomes. I've seen DNA results of Dominicans that for all practical purpose look white (their autosomal DNA is over 90% of European origin) and yet, have Taino mitochondrial DNA. It goes without saying that many of the one's that look mixed also have this and even many of the one's that look black.

On top of this, most of the people, at least from the results I have seen, with relevant Taino DNA (from 5% upwards to 11%, which is the highest I have seen thus far) not only do they lack Taino mitochondrial DNA, but often times they look as if they are predominantly one thing or another.

Last but not least, around 70% of Dominicans have African mitochondrial DNA, and this too is present in people that look white, black or anywhere inbetween; and with a genetic make up that goes from being over 90% European to even 50-60% African, which is the highest African presence in Dominican DNA that I have seen.

For those wondering, Haitians, at least of the one's I know, consistently are registering African at over 80/90% of their autosomal DNA and Taino, at least for now, is almost non-existent. The exception is one woman from southwestern Haiti, near Jeremie if I remember correctly, that registered 0.5% Taino. To be fair, not many Haitians have been genetically tested yet to have an idea of what the population consist, but so far they and Jamaicans are among the most African people in the Americas; based on the DNA results that have been gathered.


To all of this we have to add the cultural legacies in the architecture, the food, generations old stories that are passed from parent to child, and other traditions that clearly shows a reality that many don't want to accept. Things are not so white and black, literally and figuratively. There's a huge array of shades of gray in between, for better or worse.
 
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May 29, 2006
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4-6 million seems pretty optimistic. That would have a population density higher than Vermont and New Hampshire combined, which is about the same size as the DR.

I've heard from several people to never tell a Dominican they have an "Indio" look about them. There is still some stigma out there.
 

NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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Are we really debating whether the Spanish did an effective job in wiping out a peoples' way of life in the name of greed? Yes small pockets may have survived. My point was they don't exist the way that Native Americans do in the USA and Canada today.

LTSteve
The results is that the Spanish adopted way more Taino cultural traits and made it their own, then they "wiped out." This was said in the video, you need to watch it before commenting.

Most of the Tainos died of diseases such as the common cold and influenza due to not having the antibodies to fight them off. The Taino DNA that survives to this day is mostly from the mixed race children (mestizos), who already had acquired the antibodies from their European fathers and were genetically able to withstand the common cold as most people do today. 10 days of torment and its done, unlike the Tainos that died by the hundreds as if it was the plague.

In the video its clearly stated that Taino traditions remain strong in rural areas, not in the cities. For most of Dominican history, country folk made up the majority of the population and it was not until the 1970s/80s that the urban population became a majority, mostly due to rural-to-urban migration. Connect the dots while you eat some casabe... lol

Native Americans in the US hardly exist and the few that do are mostly mixed anyway. Very few modern Americans actually have Native American DNA in them, less so than the average Dominican. And to make matters even more dire, Native American cultural influences are basically non-existent in mainstream American culture, while Taino influences are quite widespread in Dominican culture, along with the African, the Spanish, the Arab and all the other influences that have arrived. That's the point of this, Taino culture has been alive and well through the centuries, despite everything that has been said about the suppose extinction, and now they are finding that there is significant Taino DNA in a population that people thought was exclusively European/African.
 

NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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4-6 million seems pretty optimistic. That would have a population density higher than Vermont and New Hampshire combined, which is about the same size as the DR.

I've heard from several people to never tell a Dominican they have an "Indio" look about them. There is still some stigma out there.
Tainos are synonymous with being dumb, stupid, mentally slow, etc.

If you ever tell a group of Dominicans something most don't believe, the first thing you will hear is "ya no somos indios" (we are no longer Indians.) Think about it... What type of person is usually gullible? The intelligent or the dumb ones? Why is the Indian used here in a negative context in a society that supposedly takes pride in the memory of the Indians? What is the difference between the Indian color and actually being Indian?

In reality, if you look into Dominican history, all three of the major cultural sources of Dominican society are embraced and looked down upon, depending on the context. In the many books that were published at the end of the 19th Century and beginning of the 20th, a pessimism towards the future of the Dominican Republic developed along the lines that the Dominican people are a mixture of three major groups: The lazy Spanish, the dumb Taino, and the uncivilized African. How can a country move forward with a decadent mixture like that, was the question of those days among intellectuals. The result usually was that Dominicans are not a people that can be governed through democratic means, because Dominicans inherited the worst from all three groups. Dominican Republic can progress through force, through order, through totalitarian regimes. Otherwise, chaos will reign.

Its either the Tainos were heroic to stand up against the Spanish (source of pride) or they were some of the dumbest people around (source of shame.) If you've been around Dominicans for a long time, you have probably heard the saying "nos quieren dar espejos por oro" (they want to give us mirrors in exchange of gold)? Care to wonder to what exactly they are referring to? Then comes the "ya no somos indios" frase... another thing to wonder about...

The African is either uncivilized or strong (in reference to putting up to slave masters.)

The Spanish is seen as either lazy or powerful.

It all depends on the context and if you notice carefully, you will see the same Dominican feel shame and pride for being of Spanish descent. The same for the African strain and then comes the indio, sure people may call themselves indio (as in color indio), but having the color of the Tainos is not the same as being Taino. This is why the paradox exist. Dominicans may say they are Indian, but if someone calls them an Indian, they will be insulted. Its one thing to be of the Indian color and its another to be Indian. Most Dominicans think in terms of color than anything else, but implying anything beyond that is asking for trouble.

To call a Dominican negro can be insulting, yet people will often say negro lindo, mi negro, etc in affectionate ways. You will hear this in the popular music too.

To call a Dominican an Indio can also be insulting, but if they refer to themselves as having Indio color, its OK.

Many Dominicans look at the Spanish with distrust, but to say they descend from the Spanish is also a source of pride.
 
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NALs

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Jan 20, 2003
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To call a Dominican negro can be insulting, yet people will often say negro lindo, mi negro, etc in affectionate ways. You will hear this in the popular music too.
Here are a few examples of old Dominican songs. I specifically searched for old songs so no one even attempt to say they are of recent creation as a response to the Afrocentrics or some nonsense along those lines, and hence doesn't count.

Listen carefully to what is said around 0:58 minutes:
[video=youtube;bCKJ38hscGQ]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bCKJ38hscGQ[/video]