In Support of the High Court Decision

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GioMed

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Oct 6, 2011
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USA, France and Canada all want to DUMP "the Haitian problem" on DR...and so
I applaud the decision of the DR high court. In my humble opinion they are looking
out for the well being of the country (DR)and it's sustainability. An average Dominican
household has less off springs than a Haitian household, a college educated DR couple
has even less off springs. So, the grim reality facing the DR was that in 50 years time
the population would be made up of mostly Haitian decendants and sadly to say their
backwards thinking would drive us (DR) into the abyss we now know as Haiti.

Imagine elections 50 years from now, who would win the popular vote:
a guy named Alvarez or the guy named Saint Pierre ?
I would bet on the guy named Saint Pierre




There has to be an owner of the farm so that the farm can exist.
 

Squat

Tropical geek in Las Terrenas
Jan 1, 2002
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Ok, please let me know what's the deal in the USA, France & Canada: if Mom & Dad are both illegal and have a child in any of those 3 countries, do this child receive citizenship automatically because he is born on its soil ?
 

windeguy

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Jul 10, 2004
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Ok, please let me know what's the deal in the USA, France & Canada: if Mom & Dad are both illegal and have a child in any of those 3 countries, do this child receive citizenship automatically because he is born on its soil ?

In the USA any child born on US soil is a US citizen, In the Canada any child born on Canadian soil is a Canadian citizen, because the law is based upon jus soli, the right of the soil.


France used to have jus soli, but now they have a more complex set of laws. The child of a visitor is now not an automatic citizen. No European country has jus soli.

My personal opinion is that jus soli should be changed to jus sanguinis in the USA. That is you are what your parents are with respect to citizenship.
 

Naked_Snake

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Sep 2, 2008
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Ok, please let me know what's the deal in the USA, France & Canada: if Mom & Dad are both illegal and have a child in any of those 3 countries, do this child receive citizenship automatically because he is born on its soil ?

As winde said above, France (and the rest of Europe, for that matter) doesn't have unrestrained jus solis anymore. Of course, the fundamental difference between the DR and the other three countries is that the DR doesn't belong to the rich countries club as they do, something which you and others seem to be olympically ignoring. This country might be rich in the mind of Leonel Fernandez and F?lix Bautista, but for this to be the effective reality, my friend, there's yet a loooooong way to go.
 

windeguy

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What GloMed appears to be saying is that the DR should have jus sanguinis which is just like Europe and unlike the USA which has jus soli.

The DR is now trying to clarify its position on Haitian immigration, protect itself, and of course it causes pain, anger and confusion to those who would lose something. And it gets those who feel it is their purpose in life to get involved in such matters to jump in as if it was their business.
 

Castle

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Sep 1, 2012
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My personal opinion is that jus soli should be changed to jus sanguinis in the USA. That is you are what your parents are with respect to citizenship.

What if the parents are from two different countries? who decides the child's nationality?. And what if the parents are from a country that does not accept jus sanguini? What if the parents don't have any documents?

We need to protect the children, they are not responsible for what their parents do. Nationality is a human right, it can't be denied. Governments can't blame people for their lack of migration controls.
 

bronzeallspice

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Mar 26, 2012
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What if the parents are from two different countries? who decides the child's nationality?. And what if the parents are from a country that does not accept jus sanguini? What if the parents don't have any documents?

We need to protect the children, they are not responsible for what their parents do. Nationality is a human right, it can't be denied. Governments can't blame people for their lack of migration controls.

So in other words the parents commit mistakes and then expect the government to fix it.

First before migrating the parents need to make sure that they enter the country with documentation
then there will be no issue when it comes to legalization of their children.

If the parents entered the country with no documentation then that's their problem and not the government's.
The government cannot continue to carry the mistakes of the parents on their shoulders. This is what's called a burden and that's the current issue that its trying to correct.

The parents are the ones responsible for the state of their children.
 
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Squat

Tropical geek in Las Terrenas
Jan 1, 2002
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Ok, now if all 100% Haitian babies born in the DR gets automatic citizenship, within a generation DR will turn "black", no? I don't mean to be derogatory, but Haitian women get pregnant all the time, all their life, and they have more kids.

That might be the reason why France & other European nation changed to jus sanguinis, as there are way too many Arabs & Africans in France.
 

bronzeallspice

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Mar 26, 2012
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Ok, now if all 100% Haitian babies born in the DR gets automatic citizenship, within a generation DR will turn "black", no? I don't mean to be derogatory, but Haitian women get pregnant all the time, all their life, and they have more kids.

That might be the reason why France & other European nation changed to jus sanguinis, as there are way too many Arabs & Africans in France.

Haitian babies born in the DR automatically do not get Dominican citizenship. They are just given a piece of paper stating live birth.

Turn black? You err because the majority of Dominicans are black. It's a mixed culture.
 

Castle

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Sep 1, 2012
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I just can't fathom the idea of a child being a mistake that needs to be "fixed".
States exist for the well being of people that live within their jurisdictions. If an undocumented couple entered a country, it is the State's fault, so it is the government's problem. Declaring the child illegal is like declaring the flu illegal after you were walking under the rain naked, and expect the flu to go away just because you say it is illegal now. It's like neglecting you car's maintenance and then declaring its breakdown illegal and expect the car to keep running.
 

delite

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Oct 17, 2006
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Ok, now if all 100% Haitian babies born in the DR gets automatic citizenship, within a generation DR will turn "black", no? I don't mean to be derogatory, but Haitian women get pregnant all the time, all their life, and they have more kids.

That might be the reason why France & other European nation changed to jus sanguinis, as there are way too many Arabs & Africans in France.

Squat,

Here's the situation, I feel...
The Europeans fearing that there countries are being infiltrated by darker people is a definite threat. Khadafy had signed a deal with the European Union to try and limit the number of "dark" people reaching the shores of Europe. The deal was that the EU were going to pay him hundreds of millions of dollars to prevent this illegal migration.

Sadly to say that we, Americans with said Europeans murdered him now the voyages are unabated to Europe and many migrants have lost their lives.

Historically, the Europeans have occupied and benefitted economically for hundreds of years in said countries. Now I believe the chickens are coming home to roost. What's going to be the outcome remains to be seen. Some countries are going to elect right wing extremists in order to placate their local population against the wave of illegal immigration.

More racism, more violence, more economic woes because Europe is in an economic bind. :)
 

Castle

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Sep 1, 2012
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I just expect all those rich families of foreign origin, namely: Viccini, Hasbun, Sadhala, Bonetti, etc, to show proof that their ancestors came to DR in early 1900s with all their papers in order. I expect them to show proof they were legal residents before their children were born. I sure expect them to leave the country (with their money if they wish) after they fail to show such proof.
 

bronzeallspice

Live everyday like it's your last
Mar 26, 2012
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I just can't fathom the idea of a child being a mistake that needs to be "fixed".
States exist for the well being of people that live within their jurisdictions. If an undocumented couple entered a country, it is the State's fault, so it is the government's problem. Declaring the child illegal is like declaring the flu illegal after you were walking under the rain naked, and expect the flu to go away just because you say it is illegal now. It's like neglecting you car's maintenance and then declaring its breakdown illegal and expect the car to keep running.

If the parent's entered the country illegally, how is it the government's fault when they were not aware
of the unlawful entry through false documentation? But once the fraud is detected they take steps to
deport them as they should.

The mistake that I'm talking about is not having obtained proper documentation upon entry.
 

Naked_Snake

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Sep 2, 2008
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I just expect all those rich families of foreign origin, namely: Viccini, Hasbun, Sadhala, Bonetti, etc, to show proof that their ancestors came to DR in early 1900s with all their papers in order. I expect them to show proof they were legal residents before their children were born. I sure expect them to leave the country (with their money if they wish) after they fail to show such proof.

Don't know about the others, but in the case of the Vicinis the state would be in trouble, since it stills owe them money since the times of the dictator Ulises Heureaux "Lilis" (1880's), when there wasn't a central bank, and they and the Bancalari used to occupy that place.
 

Castle

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Sep 1, 2012
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If the parent's entered the country illegally, how is it the government's fault when they were not aware
of the unlawful entry through false documentation? But once the fraud is detected they take steps to
deport them as they should.

The same way it is the bank cashier's fault when he receives a fake $100 bill. It is his job to detect fake bills.
If a country is not capable of controlling its own borders, it has to deal with the consequences. You can always punish those who willingly break the laws, but you can't punish those who didn't. The babies certainly didn't do anything wrong. Deport the parents if you want, but you must ensure the well being of the baby.
 

bronzeallspice

Live everyday like it's your last
Mar 26, 2012
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The same way it is the bank cashier's fault when he receives a fake $100 bill. It is his job to detect fake bills.
If a country is not capable of controlling its own borders, it has to deal with the consequences. You can always punish those who willingly break the laws, but you can't punish those who didn't. The babies certainly didn't do anything wrong. Deport the parents if you want, but you must ensure the well being of the baby.

And now steps are being taken to secure the border. Haiti and the DR are both in agreement to continue
building a wall around the border line. Employers will be fined for hiring illegals. Illegals are being deported on a weekly basis.If the parents are deported then surely their children are deported
along with them.

The DR is taken measures to correct its mistakes.Which they will continue to do no matter
what anyone says.
 

delite

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Oct 17, 2006
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This was/is a bonehead move on the part of TC and severe cracks are already being exposed. Again, the topic at hand is in regards to Dominicans and not illegal Haitians. I believe the latter should be deported immediately if possible, however, this new ruling, has cast a net so broad that thousands of Dominicans find themselves in dire straits.

I would love to see the officials try to mass thousands of people on the border and simultaneously the Haitian authorities refusing entrance to Dominicans. What a catastrophe with all the worlds media attention focused on this impasse.

See the immediate effects on the tourism authority because tourists wouldn't feel comfortable contributing to a country faced with such dilemma. Definitely the percentages of arrivals would be drastically affected. Let's see how this plays itself out! There are no winners and losers here, however, a compromise should be the operative word. :)
 

Castle

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Sep 1, 2012
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And now steps are being taken to secure the border. Haiti and the DR are both in agreement to continue
building a wall around the border line. Employers will be fined for hiring illegals. Illegals are being deported on a weekly basis.If the parents are deported then surely their children are deported
along with them.

And that is OK. It's been done for years and no serious organization has ever complained, as long as there is respect for their dignity. Nothing wrong with deporting illegals. If illegals have a baby born in DR, tell them what they are told everywhere else: your baby can stay if you wish, you cannot. As you say, they'll most likely take the baby with them. Problem solved.

Now leave all those generations of dominican born alone, and peace will be restored.
 
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