Foreigners attack with falsehood and misinformation the TC citizenship ruling

Virgo

Bronze
Oct 26, 2013
824
0
0
I posted this within the legal forum, which is moderated. I will repost here.
Below is text in response to an editorial by a prestigious US paper which criticized the TC ruling on the basis of provable falsehood, and misleading statements. Other foreign media outlets and foreign organizations have done the same, unfortunately.
======================================
Sirs/Ladies:
Your editorial on a recent ruling by the Dominican Constitutional Court has many problems.

Your contention that "[h]istorically, the Dominican Republic has given citizenship to all people born on its soil" is plain false.

Although the 2010 constitution does explicitly cite illegal residents among those whose children are ineligible for automatic citizenship at birth, all previous Dominican constitutions since 1929 explicitly excluded from automatic citizenship children from parents in certain categories, including those "de transito" (approximately, transient).

Hence, foreign parents must prove that their child was born on Dominican soil, and they were not "de transito". Illegal residents, especially those from neighboring Haiti, with no legal address or job in the DR, no real estate, etc could never prove non-transient status, and may not even be able to prove the child's birth inside the DR.

The ruling did NOT "revoke the citizenship" of the plaintiff, making her one of "over 200,000" 'Dominicans of Haitian decent' left "stateless". She never qualified for Dominican citizenship. And no child of Haitian parents can possibly become stateless, because s/he automatically inherits Haitian citizenship, regardless of birth place.

Likewise, the ruling did NOT authorize the government to look for "people who no longer qualify for citizenship". Simply, if any non-qualifier got Dominican citizenship, by mistake or fraudulent means, the record must be set straight. Reasonable, no?

Your editorial is based on falsehood, and does not reflect careful thought and research. You have acted irresponsibly, by calling for measures against the Dominican people, without prior due diligence.

Thank you for your attention.

Virgo
P.S. Above is a digest. Full version with sources below.
=======================
Sirs/Ladies:
Your October 15 editorial on a recent ruling on citizenship eligibility by the Dominican Republic's Constitutional Court constitute a great disservice to (i) your readers, (ii) the Dominican people, and, most importantly, (iii) the truth. Your editorial contains direct material falsehood, and does not reflect careful thought and even superficial research on the very serious issues you address. Yet, you irresponsibly call for measures that may harm the Dominican people.

Your contention that "[h]istorically, the Dominican Republic has given citizenship to all people born on its soil" is plain false.

The Dominican constitution in force when the plaintiff was born, as well as all Dominican constitutions since 1929, explicitly excluded from automatic citizenship those born on Dominican soil from parents who were in certain categories. The central issue considered by the court was whether the plaintiff, as a child of illegal immigrants, fell on the excluded category. According to the Dominican Constitutional Court's interpretation of the Dominican constitution, the plaintiff is and has always been in fact ineligible for Dominican citizenship.

Did the court "revoke the citizenship" of the plaintiff, making her one of "over 200,000" 'Dominicans of Haitian decent' left "stateless", as you suggest?. If you had studied the court's decision (freely available in Spanish for download) and done relevant research you would have known that the answer is "of course, not".

No court can possibly "revoke" the citizenship of someone who isn't a citizen. That much is obvious. The court simply confirmed that, as she had been told by other legitimate Dominican authorities, she never qualified for Dominican citizenship.

Furthermore, she could not possibly become stateless, for a very simple yet extremely powerful reason which you seem to ignore: according to the Haitian constitution in force at her birth (and nearly all Haitian constitutions), as any child with at least one Haitian parent, she automatically inherits Haitian citizenship, regardless of her place of birth. This also implies something equally relevant: Had she been a Haitian-born child of Dominican parents, she would not have qualified for Haitian citizenship, even if her Dominican parents had been legal long-time permanent residents of Haiti, because Haiti itself _only_ awards citizenship at birth on the basis of inheritance (and does not even accept dual citizenship!).

Thus, your statement that the ruling authorizes the government to look for "people who no longer qualify for citizenship" is also plain false. What the ruling says is that if people who did not qualify for Dominican citizenship, got it by mistake or through irregular or fraudulent means (as opposed to naturalization), the record needs to be set straight. You find that reasonable, don't you?

Since you seem so misinformed and uninformed, I will provide you with additional detail. The Dominican constitution has never awarded at birth Dominican citizenship to the children of those "de transito" or "en transito" in the DR. "De transito" relates to the English word "transient", or the phrase "in transit" but should not be translated out of context. The court's ruling makes clear on the basis of Dominican jurisprudence and other factors that in the context of the decision "de transito" or "en transito" is the equivalent of "non-immigrant resident" status in the US; that is, one who does not have legal permanent residence, such as tourists, students, migrant workers, etc.

Foreign parents claiming Dominican citizenship for their child must _prove_ that (i) the child was in fact born on Dominican soil, and (ii) that the parents were not in the DR "de transito". Legal permanent residents can normally easily prove both. However, illegal residents, by their own condition, would have great difficulty proving non-transient status (they have no legal address, no legal job, own no real estate, etc), and may not even be able to prove that the child was born on Dominican soil. This is particularly important in the case of Haitians, who can -- and do -- easily cross the border in and out of the DR with minimal o no control, and could claim that a Haitian-born child was born in the DR. All this further reinforces the court's opinion that the category "de transito" or "en transito" has always, since 1929, meant to include illegal residents (of any nationality, but especially from Haiti). This interpretation is also in agreement with previous decisions by legitimate Dominican administrative and judicial authorities, including the Dominican Supreme Court; that is, it breaks no new ground (which you also seem to ignore).

What the 2010 amendment to the Dominican constitution did was to explicitly cite illegal residents among those whose children are ineligible for automatic Dominican citizenship at birth. This amendment also explicitly states that only Dominican authorities can define what "en transito" means, for citizenship purposes.

You also seem unfamiliar with immigrants, when you suggest that Haitians born on the Dominican side of a small island (which is approximately the size of South Carolina) somehow manage to lose their parents' language and all connection with their relatives and culture on the Haitian side of the island, even though they could easily cross the border back and forth. I can assure you that the vast majority of US-born/raised Dominicans speak Dominican Spanish, keep in touch with their relatives in the island, are very familiar with Dominican culture -- even if they have never visited the DR -- and would fit right in the DR. There is no reason to believe that Haitians born on the other side of a small island are any different.

Because Haitians are predominantly black, whereas Dominicans are predominantly of mixed heritage -- including a sizable minority of predominantly white people -- you may have assumed that this is in fact a racial issue. In fact, Dominicans have legitimate reasons to fear getting "taken over" (by force or otherwise) by Haiti. In the early 19th century, Haiti started out as the more prosperous and populous side, and officially defined itself as including the entire island, which they proclaimed "indivisible". Shortly after Dominicans became independent from Spain, Haitians took over the Dominican Republic by force, and ruled it with an iron fist for over two decades. In 1844, Dominicans fought and won their independence from Haiti, but over the next decades had to resist repeated Haitian military invasions, until Haitians finally gave up. Since then, Haiti has retained a numerical population advantage (and a much higher population density) , and very large numbers of Haitians have, at one point or another, for various reasons, entered and/or remained in the DR without consent from the Dominican authorities (currently at least hundreds of thousands do so). The possibility that masses of Haitians occupy large portions of the DR, eventually gaining a working majority through their Dominican-born children on entire Dominican regions, or possibly the entire DR is by no means far-fetched. Those who have written the Dominican constitutions know all this, which further reinforces that the court's interpretation is consistent with the writers' intend.

You have injected yourself in an issue which is frankly none of your business, and has gone as far as calling for unspecified "pressure" on the Dominican people because you dislike a ruling by a legitimate Dominican court performing its constitutional duties to interpret the Dominican constitution. However, you have based your position on misinformation, misrepresentation, insufficient research, and material falsehood. You have in fact acted irresponsibly, and should not do so ever again.

Thank you for your attention.

Virgo
P.S. Sources:
Ruling: Sentencia TC/0168/13 | Tribunal Constitucional de la Rep?blica Dominicana
Earlier ruling by the Dominican Supreme Court:
http://www.idpc.es/archivo/1208337878FCI12SRD1.pdf
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jus_soli
Chief Justice, Prof. Dr. Milton Ray Guevara (PhD in law from Niece, France):
Magistrado Presidente - Dr. Milton Ray Guevara | Tribunal Constitucional de la Rep?blica Dominicana
Dominican Republic: Constitutions
Haiti: Constitutions
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Dominican_Republic
 

GWOZOZO

Bronze
Dec 7, 2011
1,108
0
0
and very large numbers of Haitians have, at one point or another, for various reasons, entered and/or remained in the DR without consent from the Dominican authorities (currently at least hundreds of thousands do so). The possibility that masses of Haitians occupy large portions of the DR, eventually gaining a working majority through their Dominican-born children on entire Dominican regions, or possibly the entire DR is by no means far-fetched.

Nice informative letter, but you failed to mention that dominican governments actively recruited and purchased haitian workers to enter DR to work.

I agree that there is a fear of the haitian inside DR...that's why the role of dominican government and business leaders in bringing in haitians should have been noted.
 

GWOZOZO

Bronze
Dec 7, 2011
1,108
0
0
You have injected yourself in an issue which is frankly none of your business, and has gone as far as calling for unspecified "pressure" on the Dominican people because you dislike a ruling by a legitimate Dominican court performing its constitutional duties to interpret the Dominican constitution. However, you have based your position on misinformation, misrepresentation, insufficient research, and material falsehood. You have in fact acted irresponsibly, and should not do so ever again.


It is a good letter...but you lost it at the end with the above.

This is 2013 and there is no such thing as "none of your business" on what others see as an international/interethnic issue.

Nations and academics comment on issues in other countries daily. Be it gay rights in russia....women's rights in moslem societies...etc etc.

If you feel it is none of their business, why even attempt to inform them.

That last paragraph will make them take you less seriously.
 

mofongoloco

Silver
Feb 7, 2013
3,002
9
38
Hey Virgo, Clearly you are well versed on the topic of the editorial to which you object. You are much more knowledgeable on the topic than the editors of the "prestigious US paper which criticized the TC ruling on the basis of provable falsehood, and misleading statements." You imply some animosity toward the DR. May I suggest you consider that it is merely journalistic incompetence. Whenever you are personally aware of the details of a news story you always see how wrong they get it. All the time.

Hey Gwozozo, I certainly agree that it is a topic rightly discussed by the international community. The examples you give clearly illustrate why everyone does have a dog in this fight. Some on principle. For Dominicans and Haitians in the diaspora it is a matter of grave concern. For those on the island it is a matter of survival.

The extraordinary progress the Dominicans have made in the last thirty to forty years should be lauded. It might serve as a model for Haiti.

On various threads posters have described a uniqueness in the Haitian diaspora regarding it's relationship with the mother country. When I consider a longer perspective I see the second generation children of Haitians born in Canada, USA, France, etc. will be the ones to make a lasting and effective change for that country. In 30-40 years Haiti could be at the place DR is at now.

I also think that the conditions attached to aid given to Haiti also places big restrictions on their ability to develop an economy. Keeping Haiti as a client state of international welfare serves so many greedy people with nefarious intent. It also allows liberals to bathe in the comforting assuage of self-satisfaction.
 

Castle

Silver
Sep 1, 2012
2,982
1
0
Virgo should use his/her real username, not one created for the specific purpose of saying what he/she really thinks while keeping his/her real username unscathed. I think that's a very coward way to argue. One must stand by his/her opinions in plain view, even more so if by definition we are all hidden behind a keyboard to begin with.
 

Virgo

Bronze
Oct 26, 2013
824
0
0
Virgo should use his/her real username, not one created for the specific purpose of saying what he/she really thinks while keeping his/her real username unscathed. I think that's a very coward way to argue. One must stand by his/her opinions in plain view, even more so if by definition we are all hidden behind a keyboard to begin with.
I frankly cannot follow why posting the text of a SERIOUS letter sent to a newspaper would "scathe" any other ANONYMOUS username, and (b) why would posting under an ANONYMOUS username would be any more/less 'coward' than posting under another. I suppose Castle is not your real full name, which would make a 'coward' of you by your own logic...not that I see it that way.
If you have something to say about the subject matter, let us know. Otherwise, I would appreciate that you keep your speculations in a different thread, or use private messaging while allowing this thread to remain dedicated to the subject matter, which is extremely important, at least to some people. Thanks.
 

Virgo

Bronze
Oct 26, 2013
824
0
0
Nice informative letter, but you failed to mention that dominican governments actively recruited and purchased haitian workers to enter DR to work.

Not sure I follow you on 'purchasing Haitian workers'. If you can read Spanish you may want to download and read the background material of the ruling. They discuss at great length the formal agreement between the Haitian and Dominican govs, so-called Modus Operandi, which seems like an exemplary approach to the issue of migrant workers. The Dominican and Haitian governments did it the right way, specifying in great detail the conditions by which a specific number of workers would participate in specific agricultural activities by a specific length of time, and would return back to their side of the island. Migrant workers agreement were for sure not invented by Dominicans and Haitians. Mexican agricultural workers also go to the US under such agreements, under NAFTA and even before. Cubans are doing something similar with medicine personnel. That some Haitians decided to remain in the DR against the specific terms of their agreement cannot be blamed on either government.
Furthermore, of Haitians in the DR today, only a small percentage actually entered through that program...quite a few simply walked over the border (as many Mexicans and others do today into the US) and have never worked in the sugar industry.
 

Castle

Silver
Sep 1, 2012
2,982
1
0
I frankly cannot follow why posting the text of a SERIOUS letter sent to a newspaper would "scathe" any other ANONYMOUS username, and (b) why would posting under an ANONYMOUS username would be any more/less 'coward' than posting under another.

If so, why don't you just use the username you normally use here?
Is it because you don't want to be stigmatized by your opinions later on when all this issue is over?
Is it because you just want to stir the pot and then disappear?
Is it because you think anybody really cares that much about your letter to find out who you really are?

I have a lot to say about the subject, and I have said it. I can see you even replied to some of my opinions on different threads. And to some other posters too, always sending all of us away to "educate" ourselves. As if all of us who oppose this decision were not culturally, intellectually, morally and humanly miles ahead from those endorsing it. I read you praised some supreme court judge who "has a PhD from france". Too funny. You really need to kick that third-world, colonized criteria, which is what's really holding DR back, instead of blaming others.

Be brave, post under your usual username if you want to get some credit. Nobody with 4 posts and only a few days old username has any credibility. Ask the hundreds of spammers that get blocked every month.

I was telling my fellow poster bronzeallspice on yet another thread that I decided to stay away from the discussion, because some people are too emotional about it and I, not being dominican or haitian, really could not enter an emotional discussion on this issue, which seems to be the only level where some posters are willing to discuss.
So, I'll make sure to read your response if you wish to post it, but I won't be posting anything else on this thread or any other thread on this matter. Have a nice day.
 

bronzeallspice

Live everyday like it's your last
Mar 26, 2012
11,009
2
38
If so, why don't you just use the username you normally use here?
Is it because you don't want to be stigmatized by your opinions later on when all this issue is over?
Is it because you just want to stir the pot and then disappear?
Is it because you think anybody really cares that much about your letter to find out who you really are?

I have a lot to say about the subject, and I have said it. I can see you even replied to some of my opinions on different threads. And to some other posters too, always sending all of us away to "educate" ourselves. As if all of us who oppose this decision were not culturally, intellectually, morally and humanly miles ahead from those endorsing it. I read you praised some supreme court judge who "has a PhD from france". Too funny. You really need to kick that third-world, colonized criteria, which is what's really holding DR back, instead of blaming others.

Be brave, post under your usual username if you want to get some credit. Nobody with 4 posts and only a few days old username has any credibility. Ask the hundreds of spammers that get blocked every month.

I was telling my fellow poster bronzeallspice on yet another thread that I decided to stay away from the discussion, because some people are too emotional about it and I, not being dominican or haitian, really could not enter an emotional discussion on this issue, which seems to be the only level where some posters are willing to discuss.
So, I'll make sure to read your response if you wish to post it, but I won't be posting anything else on this thread or any other thread on this matter. Have a nice day.

Castle, you keep saying that some people are too emotional but that's because it doesn't pertain to the issues that occur in your country. I bet you that if the matter at hand pertained to your country you would be getting just as emotional and would have plenty to say about it.
 

bronzeallspice

Live everyday like it's your last
Mar 26, 2012
11,009
2
38
Castle, you keep saying that some people are too emotional but that's because it doesn't pertain to the issues that occur in your country. I bet you that if the matter at hand pertained to your country you would be getting just as emotional and would have plenty to say about it.

As for the issue pertaining to the username I will not comment because it never entered my mind that the poster is using another handle. Since I have no proof of that I can not accuse anyone.
 

GWOZOZO

Bronze
Dec 7, 2011
1,108
0
0
I see the second generation children of Haitians born in Canada, USA, France, etc. will be the ones to make a lasting and effective change for that country.

That second generation is already here...they have graduated college and are working...and are breeding the third generation. They are fully americanized or canadianized......they have become hiphenated americans, canadians etc.

Haiti is not their priority nor should it be.

Haiti's future is in the hands of the haitians in haiti and its haitian born diaspora.
 

iluvdr

New member
Aug 24, 2004
362
2
0
Congratulations Castle for saying out loud what most of us think silently. You are very brave and courageous to share your opinions on the Haiti topic on these forum. I enjoy debating and recognize that there is no "absolute" right or wrong !
I understand most of the Dominicans frustration who believe that Haitians are a curse and that they are stealing there jobs and abusing the health care system. There is nothing any one can tell them to change there minds . They are blinded with hatred.
What hurts me the most , his that most of these 2nd and 3rd generation Dominican Haitians care more about there country then most original Dominicans. They know absolutely nothing of Haiti and hardly understand why there government wants to punish them and send them to a foreign land.
The supporters of the TC ruling refuse to recognize that this is not an issue about "illegal immigrants" but about Dominicans of Haitian origin. Regardless if one agrees or disagrees that children born in DR to illegal immigrants do not have the right to Dominican Citizenship. This decision will have zero impact on illegal immigration ! What most sensible Dominicans want to see is an end to the flow of illegal immigrants from Haiti. This part I agree and I understand. What I can't understand is why they want so bad to denationalize thousands if not hundred of thousands of Dominican citizens... How will this help make the DR a better place ???
 

Virgo

Bronze
Oct 26, 2013
824
0
0
The supporters of the TC ruling refuse to recognize that this is not an issue about "illegal immigrants" but about Dominicans of Haitian origin. Regardless if one agrees or disagrees that children born in DR to illegal immigrants do not have the right to Dominican Citizenship. This decision will have zero impact on illegal immigration ! What most sensible Dominicans want to see is an end to the flow of illegal immigrants from Haiti. This part I agree and I understand. What I can't understand is why they want so bad to denationalize thousands if not hundred of thousands of Dominican citizens... How will this help make the DR a better place ???
You need to start paying attention to what this is about. This issue has nothing to do with immigration, legal or not. It is about INTERPRETING the Dominican constitutions, any of them since 1929.

By calling them 'Dominicans', you are already imposing on the DR your personal definition of citizenship (so called jus soli) and refusing to see the real issue.

The fact is that they are Haitians according to the Haitian constitution. They are also Haitians according to the Dominican constitution as interpreted by the ONLY body that has been specifically created to interpret the Dominican constitution.

Both constitutions are calling them Haitians. Why do you call them Dominicans? Haitian is what they really are.

And if were true (I don't believe it) that simply because they are "alleged" to have been born in the Dominican side of a small island the size of SC, they have cut all ties to the other side of the small island, where all their roots are, and haven't even bothered to learn their parent's language, they would not be very good human beings either.

The irony is that if they had been Haitian-born children of Dominicans, they would have ZERO chance of getting Haitian citizenship by birth...And whether they grew up there, and their parents grew up there, and their parents' parents grew up there...and....and....Haitians would tell them, so damn what??? They would still be DENIED the Haitian citizenship...It is the way it is in Haiti, and no one seems to care...Why all this noise abut a policy that in fact is more lenient than Haiti's?!
By the way, Haiti is not the only country that follows jus sanguinis...MOST countries are like that...only children of citizens are citizens at birth...period...And of course there are foreigners in such countries who have actually been born and raised there, and they are doing just fine...and no one is making noise about it...What if the DR was to define citizenship EXACTLY as Haiti and those other countries do? How high would the level of noise get, then?