The Ironies of Haiti

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NALs

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This thread will be used to bring to light certain ironies that exist regatding the usual accusations that certain pro-Haitian groups make against the DR. I will try to post one issue per week.

IRONY 1: MODERN SLAVERY

Dominican Republic sometimes is presented as a country that 'enslaves' Haitians and even as the 'slave capital of America' as I once read.

Yet the reality is that Haiti is actually the enslaver of Haitians because the country ranks first in America and second or third worldwide (depends on the source) in having the most people in conditions of 'modern slavery.'

image.jpg


Haitians enslaving Haitians like no other group (except two nationalities) of people enslave their own people or others. :eek:
 

WillsonCori

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It seems like a ridiculous topic.. how should the Hatians be the DR's problem? As far as I know the country isnt exactly killing it themselves. . Who is applying this pressure?
 

Marcion

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France wants everyone to have amnesia and blame the DR.

The problem is that Haitians still speak French -- a hot brand seared into the flesh of truth. They need to take responsibility for their sins.
 

ramesses

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Haiti became independent from France during Napoleon's rule....then when the King was back in charge, the Haitians paid the French off....in something like 1825.

Long time ago....France washed their hand of them with the payment.
 

islandhopping

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Any society which is not educated and not equipped to sustain their own preservation, will have generations of difficulty being self-staining.

Being assisted by the colonial powers which caused the climate, and those same countries continued propagate divisiveness on the island. Well intention NGOs, which don't conform to some consensus of responsible national policy. In absent of a functional government, NGOs should develop a strategic harmonious consensus. Else there help is really just feeding the poor instead of teaching the poor to fish and provide them with their first rod and reel.

Ideally, Haiti would stop their population migration by restricting foreigners from exploiting them.
Internal political dynasties grasping for control of the population, are just as deteriorating to social improvements. Failure to develop a middle class and key industries has the population in an emotional flux willing to kick out the national government, at the drop of a hat.

The DR is only better because of foreign investments, land sizes, choosing to identify closer to the colonial powers which subjugated them and has learn the value of tourism.

Haitians migrate to the DR, Dominicans migrate to the PR, Puerto Ricans migrate to the mainland US.

$1,000 spent wisely will beat $100,000 pisted way on most days.
 

greydread

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Learn to eat from the Master's hand or starve to death.

So much for Modern Civilization. The New World Order is the same as the old world order...except a lot more orderly.
 

NALs

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The DR is only better because of foreign investments...
Foreign investments have never been more than 40% of total investments in any given year, more often than not well below that. No one invests in the DR like Dominicans do, and this is still the case despite that more than half of all foreign investments that are made in the Caribbean is actuslly being invested in the DR.
 

melphis

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Until the Haitians overthrow their government they can never move forward. Over 90% of the aid that has been given to Haiti since the earthquake has been misdirected or flat out stolen. If the world particularly France and the rest of the Caribbean nations are so worried about Haiti they should either step up or shut the f up.
I am so sick of the Dominican Republic being blamed for everything wrong in Haiti I could spit up. Its time for Haitians to stand up in thier country and quit with the self entitled attitude about getting a free piece of the DR.
I will now put my soap box back in the corner.
 

dv8

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yeah, but look at me getting my ass kicked on another thread for saying that haitians are responsible for the situation in haiti. how very dare i?
 

NALs

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Haiti became independent from France during Napoleon's rule....then when the King was back in charge, the Haitians paid the French off....in something like 1825.

Long time ago....France washed their hand of them with the payment.
The first and only French head of state to ever visit Haiti after it became independent was Sarkozy and only to see the devastation of the earthquake in 2010. By contrast, the DR is visited multiple times every year by various members of the Spanish monarchy, many Dominican families has personal relations with them, and all in all there isn't much of a distance in these relations nstionally and at personal levels. Heck, the former King of Spain left today for Spain after spending a week in La Romana. Almost every time the royal family visits this hemisphere, they feel the need to stop in the DR sometimes just to re-fuel (they could do that in PR where the jet fuel is actually cheaper, but no DR it is) or to spend a few days relaxing somewhere along the coast, usually in the east. DR is the only country they treat like that, of visiting even when their reason to cross the Atlantic has nothing to do with the DR.

One can always make the argument that blood (most of Dominican population is partially of Spanish descent, the average ranges from 40% to 60% of the genetic make up of random Dominicans according to recent DNA research) and cultural affinities could explain the much more closer relationship the DR has with Spain than Haiti is to France (heck, the DR has a more intimate relationship with France than Haiti does when it should be the opposite, not to mention that I personally am not too happy with all this smooching with the French. As far as I'm concerned, the only thing the French are good at outside their country is creating huge mess that they refuse to clean up, and Haiti is only one example -France is also the only colonial power to impose a debt that practically bankrupted its former colony just to recognize their sovereignty- because if anyone knows of a former French colony that has become at least somewhat successful, please mention them. Former Spanish, British, Portiguese colonies have checkered results ranging from very successful to not so much, but as a group all former French colonies are in deplorable conditions and this says to me that there is something wrong with the French way of doing things.) In the 2000 decade Spain even gave Dominicans preferential treatment in terms of granting visas not just compared to most other Hispanic countries, but also compared to most countries. While Spain was actively turning away the wave of Africans trying to enter illegally through Melilla and Murcia, the Spanish embassy in Santo Domingo was giving visas to any Dominican that asked for one and they even sent messengers to various towns in southern DR to spread the word of almost guaranteed visas to Spain. That's the reason why the Dominican presence in Spain ballooned in a very short time and most Dominicans living there are from the southern region. The Spanish prefer people that have a genetic and cultural linkage with them. I don't think France has ever done something like that with Haiti.

But, getting back to the French visit to Haiti, according to the rumor mill, once Sarkozy asked his aides to give him a short resume of Haiti's history, once he was told of the tortures and massacres the French were subjected to by the Haitians, he didn't mentioned Haiti ever again, and France itself continues with its aloofness regarding Haiti.
 
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melphis

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yeah, but look at me getting my ass kicked on another thread for saying that haitians are responsible for the situation in haiti. how very dare i?

I think its because nobody accepts responsibility for there actions anymore. To many aholes in the world that blame everyone for everything. If only they could look in the mirror a lot of problems would be fixed.
By the way what thread did you get called to task on. Most of your stuff makes sense
 

NALs

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By the way, I meant to say Ceuta, not Murcia.
 

the gorgon

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so, NALS, i guess you do not subscribe to the idea that the reason why Haiti receives such snubs from both France, and most of the rest of the developed world, is because they had the audacity to jettison their formal colonial masters.
 

GWOZOZO

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I do not blame france for anything or expect any special treatment from france.

Mistakes were made.

Napoleon's inability to accept Toussaint's plans guaranteed that France would loose the entire island and then be forced to sell the massive Louisiana territory.

Toussaint never asked for independence, and only wanted to keep the entire island as a slavery free part of the french empire.

The little general could not accept such audacity from a negro.


Haiti should not have paid the debt, but instead turn the island into another graveyard for any invading french force. Guerilla warfare would have france pay a heavy debt.

Kristof in the north might have done things differently, but the mulatto ruled south republic under the worthless and coward mulatto Petyon and Boyer were too french and lacked balls.

It has been a long separation and france never colonized independent haiti, it simply lost St-Domingue and much more.

Haiti is on its own and needs to take proper steps and find appropriate allies to develop itself.
 

mofongoloco

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When I was in Colombia in January there were lines around the block,at the passport office. In a matter of months Colombians will be allowed to travel to Spain without a visa, presumably then the rest of EU countries. It surprises me that Spain could do this independently.
 

NALs

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so, NALS, i guess you do not subscribe to the idea that the reason why Haiti receives such snubs from both France, and most of the rest of the developed world, is because they had the audacity to jettison their formal colonial masters.
From France yes, from the rest of the world not so much. The US probably has the largest number of wealthy imvestors of color, why aren't they investing heavily in Haiti as an act of solidarity? Are they angry that Haiti got rid of the French? I don't think so.

Look at Oprah as a good example. She decided to open a special all girls schools in South Africa. When asked why over there and not in the US, she said because over there people don't have the opportunities that are available in the US. Fair enough, but she probably flies over Haiti when she's on her way to keep an eye on her South African charity. They are on the other side of the planet, yet Haiti is much more needy than South Africa and 'right there' close to her home. Apparently the neediest closest to the USA are not worth to even think about. The irony is that Oprah probably has more genetic connections to many Haitians than she does to South Africans. She actually thought she was descendant of Zulus, a South African tribe I believe, and her DNA test she did in the Finding Your Roots show completely debunked that myth becauss she's not related to South Africans and not to the Zulus either.

Haiti has a major problem.
 
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Naked_Snake

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if anyone knows of a former French colony that has become at least somewhat successful, please mention them.

Well, one could mention Quebec, Louisiana and Vietnam, but one would have to see the impact of the British, Americans and the locals (in Vietnam's case) on their avoiding the fate of the rest of the Francophone world. Outside this, I'm pretty much with you in the French aversion (the only good thing they have given us being habichuelas con dulce, haha).

It's pretty much noteworthy the fact that, if Martinique and Guadeloupe have until now avoided a similar fate to Haiti, it's because they still retain the metropolitan link to this day. To mention this to the locals is verbotem, however.
 

greydread

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From France yes, from the rest of the world not so much. The US probably has the largest number of wealthy imvestors of color, why aren't they investing heavily in Haiti as an act of solidarity? Are they angry that Haiti got rid of the French? I don't think so.

Look at Oprah as a good example. She decided to open a special all girls schools in South Africa. When asked why over there and not in the US, she said because over there people don't have the opportunities that are available in the US. Fair enough, but she probably flies over Haiti when she's on her way to keep an eye on her South African charity. They are on the other side of the planet, yet Haiti is much more needy than South Africa and 'right there' close to her home. Apparently the neediest closest to the USA are not worth to even think about. The irony is that Oprah probably has more genetic connections to many Haitians than she does to South Africans. She actually thought she was descendant of Zulus, a South African tribe I believe, and her DNA test she did in the Finding Your Roots show completely debunked that myth becauss she's not related to South Africans and not to the Zulus either.

Haiti has a major problem.

What Oprah did with the school in South Africa is a buck neked marketing ploy to get her brand sold on the continent which will see the sharpest economic upturn of the 21st century. Is the "Black investment" of which you speak coming from American Blacks? Those pennies hardly matter, Opfrey is the only American on the list of the world's top ten richest Blacks, 5 of whom are Nigerian Billionaires.

Top 10 Richest Black People 2015 - Forbes Black Billionaires

Opfrey went global and it wouldn't be prudent for her to explain her investment decisions to the whining haters in Chicago or anywhere else in the Western Hemisphere how or why. She is, after all a very shrewd businesswoman 1st and foremost and has proven her worth as a rite of passage, having ushered our current President into office through her vast influence with the nation's Woman voters of every stripe.

She just may choose to invest in Haiti at some point and her following will follow her into that endeavor as well but Haiti has an image problem as probably the least secure place on the planet to park investment cash. The nation will need to overcome that image before it can hope for prosperity and personally, I don't believe that is an accomplishment they can make on their own. I foresee much more U.S. meddling in Haiti's affairs on the horizon.
 

mofongoloco

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Nals.. Haitians do not identify as African American.. Invisible Communities, Part 4: Haitians Say They’re Haitian, Not African-American | WBUR

nor visa versa

While that may be true, the federal government sets the standard by which US society is structured. I have never understood why persons of African descent lose their cultural identity when the immigrate into the U.S. the other hyphens don't matter. Italian-American is legally white. It matters as we have embarked on a journey toward racial justice in the last fifty years. At Harvard only a small number of African American students come from a family with four African American grandparents. The majority of African Americans there are of a mixed heritage or are of recent immigrant families. Culturally, it is the generosity of the African American community to accept any person of African descent as "one of us". However, persons raised in a majority Black Country didn't face the same discrimination and had a privilege AA did not enjoy. While a person may choose to claim any ethnic identity it would be fraudulent to identify as a minority if in fact one is not. I am a full,supporter of affirmative action, which in Emgland was once termed positive discrimination, a more accurate term. They now use affirmative action in the home office. What I am trying to express is that when a person such as Elizabeth warren claims minority status to get a position it is the height of cynicism and undercuts the basis of the very important laws. What concerns me most is that persons who can trace their ancestry to the 1870 census and beyond are getting screwed, compared with a Nigerian who just got offthe plane.
 
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