White children in the DR

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Kuda

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OK, I need some serious input. My wife and I have no problems assimilating to a foreign culture. But, I have a couple of boys that are white as white can be. We're talking blue eyes, blond hair, and American upbringing.

How are Anglo kids treated by the DR children? Adults? Teachers?

Here in my town, Denver, we are a minority. The hispanic culture here is significant. We have carnecerias, panaderias, lavanderias, in my zone. Our schools are bilingual. So my kids understand somewhat.

But hispanic children here are harsh and sometimes nasty (and were talking grade school level). Middle school is a gang breeding ground, with plenty of fights and scuffles over chicas, drugs, and turf. My "Cracker Boys" have quite a challenge. Many families don't speak enlgish because they don't have to. At the same time, their income levels suffer.

I know this hatred is bred at home, by family and friends, for the most part. Does this happen there as well. Do kids get beat up for being white?
 

Dolores1

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There are lots of white, blonde, blue-eyed Dominican children. Note that over the years there has been lots of inter-marrying of different cultures with Dominicans. If you put your child in one of the upscale English or bilingual schools, or even the upscale Spanish-speaking schools, they will just be one of many. Unless your children are albinos, which definitely would make them different and noticeable, you should have none of the problems you mention having in Denver.
 

mkohn

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Jan 1, 2002
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toe heads

We were 7 kids, ages 13 and under. Blonde hair, blue eyes, fair skin and the like. We went to private Dominican schools and met kids of many different shades. There were a few light hair/skinned Dominicans there. I feel we were accepted both in school and in the neighborhood. The key will be learning Spanish which should happen quickly. At age 13, after one month of playing in our street with the rest of the kids, I was understanding and making embarrasing grammatical mistakes in Spanish. In school they were easy on me. I was expected to know the math and sciences (duh) But by the end of the year, I was doing memorization, just like everybody else. Fortunately, after one year, my Spanish was pretty good. Theirs will be too. The kids will be called "rubio" which means fair hair/skinned person. Best of luck to you.
 

El Jefe

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Its been a long time since I grew up in the DR but I say ditto to MKOHN and Delores' statements. While I attended the Carol Morgan School which was primarily an upper Class Dominican/middle to upper class American school, I had friends that attended Catholic schools which were predominately Dominican with classes in Spanish. They were always well treated and in fact learned Spanish faster thah I did and made lifelong friends. Most of my friends from Carol Morgan are now dispered all over the world and we lost contact.

BTW, what part of Denver are you in. I'm down in the Springs.
 

richard

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I have known many gringo families in Sosua over the years and their children seem very well-adjusted, mingling and playing with children from many cultures. Dominicans treat children well no matter what their colour or ethnic background.
 

Kuda

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This is very interesting and enticing.

It's interesting that a "developing nation" like the DR has superior integration to that of the US. I believe that common language is the key.

It's also interesting that the DR segments its neighborhoods based on social (monetary) status. Here in my town, different races segregate themselves...blacks to the east, hispanics to the west, and whites to the south, regardless of income (except for the rich rich rich who head for the suburbs).

It's enticing because I'm getting pretty sick of the hispanic gangs in my zone tagging and vandalizing Asian stores because they're "invading our barrio". Then the Asian gangs hit back. And when the whites hang out together, they call them "supremacists". Totally screwed up. Time to turn up the heat on this "melting pot" called the US.

And it's not about income. Houses here in my zone go for RD$2,500,000 to RD$3,500,000.

And Jefe, FYI I live in southwest Denver, sort of close to Englewood.

Thanks, all, for your kind input. Can't wait to blow this place.
 

Paulino

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I may not be very qualified at saying anything regarding this subject, but here I go sticking my neck out (well, not really):

My impression as a white North European is that there are no severe racial tensions, much less hatred, in the Dominican Republic, if any at all. There is no "us" vs. "them". My personal experience stems from the Cibao region in the North Western part of the country, things might be different elsewhere. But your kids will in all likelihood be received as friends and treated as equals, at least if they behave well themselves and don't put on any airs of being "better" than the rest, and so on and so forth. They might be exposed to some degree of friendly curiosity at most.
 
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Tony C

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Paulino,
Try to get a black Dominican Man in one of SD's better Discos. It ain't gonna happen.
As long as the econonmy is fairly healthy and people have food everything will appear fine. But if the economy goes south....Watch out.
I can give you an example from experience. Back in 84(or was it 85?) I was Taking my car to my mechanic to get some work done on it. It was the Monday after Easter and during easter week the Gov. announce major price hikes on basic foods. Well at 7:00 am that day I drove right into the middle of a riot. I started to head for my mechanic's shop for safety and was met with rocks and molotov Cocktails. I turned my car around and ran the gauntlet out of there. Dodging rocks and jumping burning tires, The last thing I saw was my Mechanic in my rear view mirror tossing a Molotov Cocktail in my Direction.(I got him back later)this is the same Mechanic that I shared beers with only weeks before.
Trust me. There is no love loss between the haves and the jealous, havenots!
 

abe

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Pollyanna doesn't live here any more.

From frequent trips over the last two + years, I have concluded that the DR is a very unique place. I lived in West Africa for two years many years ago, have travelled in the Caribbean extensively, and the rest of this hemisphere quite a bit. I lived in Manhattan for over fifteen years.

The Dominican people are among the most gracious and warmest people I have met anywhere--yet there is the indisputable legacy of racism personified by Trujillo's "ethnic cleansing" of Haitians in the 1930's. It would be an important part of your preparation for relocation to read about that.

You probably won't notice racism much--I didn't--but wait until a taxi driver wants to take you into the Haitian neighborhoods to show you how "they" live.

I am not surprised by the post about the inability of Black Dominicans to gain entree in certain places, though I can only imagine it, having not witnessed it.

The haves vs have-nots situation is a universal powderkeg everywhere on earth and it's only the length of the fuse that's at issue. So long as things are relatively okay for hardworking Dominicans, the Anglo transplant will be fine. So will the wealthier Dominican.

But if the stuff hits the fan, just like anywhere on earth--LA riots, etc.--the have-not's will rise up.

Just do your best to contribute to the overall success of the country when you get here and let's all hope the trickle down effect actually works here. The people most certainly deserve it--all the people.
 

El Jefe

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Haitians

I don't think the hatred of Haitians has anything to do with race. As you will see, there are black Dominicans as well as light to white skinned Haitians (altho more in the Upper Class). This hatred goes back to the divided nature of the country and the poverty of Haiti. The French arriveed after the Spanish so they "stole" the land in Haiti. Then the Haitians invaded and took over the DR. After the DR returned to being free the Haitians have always been looked down upon, a condition which in many ways they brought on themselves thru illegal immigration and thru their choices in leadership. They have a country that has been and probably still is being plundered by their leadership...

Now, in order to survive they are like the wetbacks in the US, coming across the border and providing cheap labor.

The hatred of Haitians, in my opinion is based on politics and economics, not racism.
 

van dyk

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Jan 7, 2002
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DR vs. rest of continent

I agree that this country is a very special case in terms of racial integration. Dominicans simply don?t think of race as an issue or as a real problem, Maybe some old-money upper class folks can be a bit discriminating but this is usually more based on social class than on just race. However, other parts of Latin America are not as open. I lived in Mexico for 3 years and mexicans proved to be far more weary of foreigners than dominicans. Also racism is far more present than here. You just have to look at mexican TV: in a country were only about 15% of the population is white, one can hardly spot non-whites on national TV doing parts other than of maids or dumb indians. god bless DR!
 

Postal

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Jan 8, 2002
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minority?

For you that live in Denver, including the original poster Kuda you apparently are just uncomfortable with the number of non-whites that you see and that makes you feel like a minority. According to the 2000 census, Hispanic and/or latinos make up 32% of the population in Denver, while blacks make up just around 11%. Most of the rest (over 50% of the population) are non-hispanic whites.
I lived in Denver in 1997. The census figures seem about right. It is indeed a mostly white town.
 

Kuda

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Postal, you completely misunderstood...

I'm not uncomfortable with people of race (why would I even be on this board if I was). If I wanted to surround myself with white folk, I'd of stayed in Wyoming. You are correct that Colorado is a mostly white state (like 82%), but Denver is in the 50 percent zone. So yes, it is in stark contrast to the surrounding cities. I was also speaking in the context of my side of town, which is even more latin and asian concentrated.

My point was that Americans in this area segregate themselves by race, by choice. The strength of our Latino community is such that schools are also taught in spanish. Our latinos can surround themselves in such a way that English is not necessary, except for getting good jobs. Thus, spanish speaking latinos tend to be lower on the income scale. "And the white man is just trying to hold a hombre down!?!". No, it's just easier to do the status quo and complain.

Dominicans, on the other hand, are more mixed racially and the language is not an issue. The focus is more (but not completely) on finance level, and therefore education. Based on the relplies here, Dominican children are much more accepting of foreigners. One, because foreigners are typically in the upper level of monetary means. Two, because upper income people are generally repected in their community and seen as an asset.

To get literal, how about if I move my family to DR into a white neighborhood. We'd only shop at white stores. Then we lobby to have all the schools teach in two languages, cause our kids can't get ahead in spanish. The teachers should slow down because we don't understand as well. And we'd have to have interpreters at all govt offices and courts. All signage, forms and publications would have to be in english. And since all the good jobs would be in spanish, we'd be poor and blame the latino for keeping the white man down!?! Insane.

All I'm saying is join the culture, wherever you are, learn the language, and live. Don't set up false barriers and bitch.
 

El Jefe

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Postal

I don't think you understand...Kuda lives in a neighborhood of Denver where there is a rising gang problem. It has nothing to do with hispanics per se. I doubt if he/she would be moving to the DR if worried about minorities, especially hispanics.
 

Kuda

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Jan 1, 2002
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Agreed Jefe. Let's put it this way:

I'm going to move...

If I were in DR, I'd be looking for better schools, and more expensive houses/neighborhoods and the benefits/security that come with it.

But I'm stuck in the US, so I'm gonna move to where the white people's at.

And I just keep telling my kids, "This is not really what Latin people are like...someday you'll see."
 

johns

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Jan 7, 2002
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Question to Kuda

I am getting more and more intrigued by the reasons people have for "relocating" (I hate that word!).

So please tell me this, Kuda, why do you REALLY want to go to DR? Is it to "blow" Denver, as you put it, then why not relocate in the US? Why DR of all places in the world? And what will you do for a living in DR?

I am simply curious...
 

Kuda

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Thank you for your interest.

Why do I really want to go there? Because I've been there. Ask anyone...if you've been there, you want to be there again. Because Dominicans are the most accepting, gracious, understanding and appreciating people...regardless of their money situation. With them, you get as you give, all the time.

I have a special understanding. When I was a young man, I contributed to a group that went into SD barrios and vaccinated los ninos y ninas de todas las familias que quieren. At the same time, I stayed with a rich (well, they had a car) family on the other side of town. Everywhere I went, people welcomed me and smiled, actually chatted and thanked me for coming. Places where taxis can't go because there not really roads...kinda like alleys. Amazing.

Anyway, my intent is to align myself with various medical non-profit agencies that collect surplus products and provide a distribution method that will meet their mission while achieving help for the people there. If I'm not financially independant by the time I'm ready (see post with Gringo in open section), perhaps I'll import and distribute medical equipment and supplies. Or both.
 

johns

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Ought to have posted this comment somewhat earlier, but spent four days trying to get back to my home in Saudi-Arabia? Missed a flight and was ?forced? to spend two nights in Paris and wow, what a city! The cultural scene is awesome! I know it is stupid to make the comparison with Santo Domingo but the difference is all the more stunning when you go from one city to the next. And as usual I had a hard time practising my French since people so often want to switch to English!

Now that my first naive and ?touristy? Oh! and Ah! impression of DR is wearing off, I feel a need to question some of the ?truths? often quoted on this board. One of them is the FRIENDLINESS of the Dominican people. What is this generalization of a whole people as being the friendliest on Earth??? Have you guys never been to Thailand?

Kudu, you provide a little ?give away? (correct english?) when you write that you know that DR is a great place, because you have ?been there?! Okey, fine! I accept that! I have friends who have been to Italy and now want to live there! I have a colleague who thinks that Saudi-Arabia is his ?Shangri-La?. When I visited friends in Chile, I met the same mythic expression from them, of the helpfulness and friendliness of the Chilean people if I decided to move there and life my life there. Obviously, it is the personal experience that impress our minds more than what we hear about or learn from media. And a personal experience is always ?true?, isn?t it? Or is it?

Well, I have travelled extensively, in business as a traveller, and my impression is that people are not more friendly in DR than anywhere else. (This is after a total of 8 weeks in DR. Perhaps to short time for this conclusion of mine, but still?) Kudu, you mention that people were ever so thankful after the medical treatment you provided for them. Well, please forgive me for being a little sarcastic, but what did you expect??? People don?t really bite the hand that feeds them, do they?

I can go on forever on this kind of subject but let me provide a little example instead, knowing the risk of misunderstanding that involves. In the company of a Dominican friend, I visited a couple of bookstores in Santo Domingo (one of them was Thesaurus), trying to find the book ?Living in Santo Domingo?. None of them had the book and that was it, without so much as a lo siento to follow! I remember when I did the same kind of search for a book in London. The typical approach in the book shops was a search in the database, and a ?Sorry, Sir, we do not have it in stock but we can order it for you!? This is a type of ?friendliness? I really appreciate!

Or am I just being grumpy after feeling that I have sobered up on DR and come to realize it is just one more sunny place... However a lot more expensive than Thailand!
 

dulce

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I have read your latests posts and I agree with some of what you say. However, I feel that somehow you have not made the proper connections in the DR to find the culture that you are looking for. I am also not sure if you have ever traveled away from Santo Domingo. Do you receive the daily news provided by the DR1 message board staff? In today's news is a list of awards from a ceremony held and to me the list is very impressive. The list will give you an idea of what goes on for arts and entertainment in the DR.
I most certainly do agree with you that to actually live in the DR IS NOT for everybody and it is good that you have traveled there many times and figured this out for yourself. I have lived there and still travel there but I am quick to tell my friends and relatives that I think they would not like the adjustments to the different lifestyle. Just be happy wherever you choose to settle in next.
 

Kuda

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Jan 1, 2002
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Listen, John S, carefully...

You asked me question and I replied with a sincere explanation. Then you berate me. An you berate the people that I connected with. **** *** buddy. I don't forgive you for being sarcastic, because I've already determined that you're a First Class asshole. Or is that Business Class?

You are so worldly that we should all bow to your superior knowledge of culture and living??? I doubt it. With all that business travel (visits as you call them), I'm sure you've had so much time mix with the locals. Did you have the balls to hop in a carro publico? Or eat some fresh catch at the beach, from one of those dreaded vendors? My guess is that you're a suite and taxi guy with open eyes and a closed mind.

Who cares about your friends and Italy, Saudi, Thailand, or Chile. They are clearly as shallow and transparent as yourself. Bunch of rich, worldly folks. Sure you get respect and friendliness when you're flashing cash in an under-developed country.

Yes, I've been there and it's "great". That is a relative term and can only be understood in the context of my life, experience, and desires. I've been to other places that are great as well, but I wouldn't want to live there.

So don't tell me about your company paid experiences to crusade for capitalism. Don't tell me about your book shopping experiences (though you proved my point, you get what you give). Tell me instead about what you have done to contribute to any of these societies (at your own expense, not the company). And I'm not talking about shopping and going to restaraunts.

You can go around the world, dippin' your toes everywhere you go. Me, I'm gonna jump in the deep end and start swimming. So, stop pissin in my pool, Grumpy.
 
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