- Thread starter Meemselle
- Start date
Another article in today's NY Times
'People returning are telling me that the police are working with street gangs to force out immigrants in the big cities,” said one Haitian border guard, clutching a clipboard with the names of Haitians who had crossed that day. “Strangers are going door to door late at night and threatening to burn people’s houses down.”
Near the city of Puerto Plata, Haitians said that unknown Dominican men had arrived at their doors in the middle of the night, yelling threats to return home'.
Can anyone verify this hearsay?
Near the city of Puerto Plata, Haitians said that unknown Dominican men had arrived at their doors in the middle of the night, yelling threats to return home'.
Can anyone verify this hearsay?
Ditto. Refreshing to see an article without having the progressive creed being shoved through our throats, for once.
that ought to make Dominicans feel better - that it is put into a greater context - sharing the spotlight with European countries that are doing the same thing..
and it shows the face of solidarity of a lot of Dominicans who have Haitian friends which is good
and explains the reports of the "forced" deportations, which the government says have not happened - but if there are folks banging on your door at night, threatening.. well-- carrot, stick.
leaves out a lot-- which is probably a good thing
and, as I said, should make the Dominicans feel better
and it shows the face of solidarity of a lot of Dominicans who have Haitian friends which is good
and explains the reports of the "forced" deportations, which the government says have not happened - but if there are folks banging on your door at night, threatening.. well-- carrot, stick.
leaves out a lot-- which is probably a good thing
and, as I said, should make the Dominicans feel better
Annie, I agree. I think it is very important to a lot of Dominicans to be taken seriously on a world stage, esp. on this issue. Many Dominicans, IME, are deeply proud and chafe at themselves & their country as being a punchline. As do we all, I imagine.
It's a highly nuanced issue, and my frustration in discussing it with Dominican friends is how simplistic many of them want to make it. And as for what passes for "discussion" in this online community.....let's just say it's unique. But entertaining nonetheless.
I agree. Note that the author uses the term Haitian or Haitian migrant, not Dominicans of Haitian descent.
The personal narratives appropriately tug at our heartstrings, as intended. But I'm not buying it. It describes a Haitian woman married to a Dominican. Neither She nor their children have papers. Well, that's just stupid. Either they aren't actually married (likely) or they were too stupid or lazy to file for legal status for his legal wife. Since dr is a patriarchal society a woman married to a Dominican man is essentially guaranteed redidency. Not so for a foreign man married to a Dominican woman.
Dr has been generous in this regularization program. They created this mess, and now they are cleaning it up. Very few elected officials have publicly stated opposition in the U.S. As usual, those least responsible for creating the mess will pay the biggest burden in cleaning it up.
Usually two sources is what is required for something to be included in a news story. So - this one has a Haitian border guard - and "Haitians" in Puerta Plata.
One would have to be interviewing the Haitians who left in order to get this story - but it is coming out from folks in Haiti- that people - military - entered their homes at night and threatened them. Martelly said that there 21 cases.
Now Danilo has said that there were none.
And he also said that there were no deportations going on during the 18 months of the PLAN
But the Jesuits have reported many deportations - well - perhaps not "many" - but incidents- here and there - 28 here , four or five there.. folks picked up . .. stuff like that. Some of that may have just been the regular actions of Migration - sweeps that they normally do ,, nothing to get terribly upset about.
Ok, stopping the nuns with the kids on the way to register them for the PLAN - taking them to Haiti- that was stupid. Don't mess with the NUNS..
But I do wish that Danilo would stop whinging all the time about the "campaign of hate" ... and sniviling about "well see, Canada supports us" and like.. well,, see.. Peru thinks we are just great...
And everytime Martelly says something to Caricom, Danilo goes "no it is not true, see, we have this PLAN" and "We have done more for Haiti than any other......
blah blah..
which sounds ridiculous right now
ditto "it is the fault of the HAITIAN government - the HAITIAN embassy"
when the Haitian government and Haiti itself is just on its feet 5 years after the earthquake.
Rather - something like.
gee-- reports of abuse? had not heard. So sorry. Will investigate and make sure the military is in line. Actual governmental deportations have not started. We were surprised at how few of the Haitians took advantage of our free transport to the border - only xxxxx.. We understand that it has been a massive amount of people that went over voluntarily during the last month but we reiterate that these were entirely voluntary.
Our Red Cross is now setting up distribution of food and water at the posts at our side of the border to make sure that our Haitian brothers and sisters who are returning to their homeland will be cared for on their journey. We wish them well and hope that some of them will carry with them some good memories of their time with us.
yo -- bro...
show the world the loving side of the DR
everyone already knows about the cola Trujillo
It's very possible that the couple in question might be living in concubinato, considering that Sabaneta is still a campo.
That's the correct wording, because the president has said a gazillion times that nothing will happen to Dominicans of Haitian descent, and Fadul of the Minister of Interior and Police also said that DR will not be deporting a single Dominican. Many people in the media, and in DR1 too, simply put on blinders regarding this particular detail and keep repeating the complete opposite regarding this point.
I do not think that you have any understanding of the difficulty or the expense of "getting papers" here.
Nor the complexity of getting papers for one's children, if their mother is Haitian.
I do not know where you are from or how long you have been in the Dominican Republic, or even if you are here. But the process of registering a child, getting an acta de nacimiento - that is already hard-
I take offense to your use of the words "too stupid or lazy to file for legal status for his legal wife"
Many people here are functionally illiterate, having only completed primary school in crowded schools, or rural schools with few resources. That does not make them stupid.
Many persons here live together for many years, consider themselves married, but have never had the resources or the means to present the legal documents needed to get married.
Nothing wrong with deporting illegal aliens, whether they have kids or not everyone knows, or should know that the Dominican man , by declaring the child has his at the JCE makes the child Dominican and by legally marrying the woman makes her his wife and not subject to deportation. Certainty years of poor border security and corrupt government has contributed to this.
We all know Dominicans talk about the slightest rumor and news spreads like wildfire, so somebody must be hearing about what these border guards or PoP Haitians have been saying.........the midnight raids and threats.
Acta de nacimiento is not hard to get, if you declare your children. I seen birth Certificates every day, and they are free when registering a child for school. They will say father, Dominican, Cedula number-----etc, mother Haitian.....Passport number.
I'll check what they say if the mother has no official identification.
yes.. see if you actually have any acto de nacamientos where the mother has no identification.
of course, yours is a private school and so the parents are going to be more affluent - better educated.
I do not know if there is a JCE in every town? Where folks can register?
In Haiti, the problem has been that one had to go to PauP - pretty much - that was the only place that gave out state documents. Little towns had no state - in Ouanminthe - even in recent times when I was there - it was the Catholic parish that was keeping the only birth records.. well -- not birth records. baptismal records.
Did you see - that in the article posted from the Haitian paper- that the Embassy here was presented with 7000 birth certificates that Haiti had no records of? That begins to give a picture of the Haitian state-- or absence thereof.
of course, yours is a private school and so the parents are going to be more affluent - better educated.
I do not know if there is a JCE in every town? Where folks can register?
In Haiti, the problem has been that one had to go to PauP - pretty much - that was the only place that gave out state documents. Little towns had no state - in Ouanminthe - even in recent times when I was there - it was the Catholic parish that was keeping the only birth records.. well -- not birth records. baptismal records.
Did you see - that in the article posted from the Haitian paper- that the Embassy here was presented with 7000 birth certificates that Haiti had no records of? That begins to give a picture of the Haitian state-- or absence thereof.
Annie, thank you for this thoughtful reply. I agree with everything you wrote here. Oddly, as I was reading other threads I was thinking about you and how you are among the most polite posters on this board and rarely use any harsh language. Really, I was thinking about that.
Thank you for pointing out that my phrasing was insensitive and offensive. May I retract those particular words? You make keen and unarguable points regarding the difficulties poor have in accessing the infrastructure of society. I agree with you 100%
For the sake of clarity I am a tourist to DR. Santo Domingo and environs with only a toe into the campo. I live in a small city just outside Boston with a high percentage of Dominicans. (Shrinking, as other immigrants displace them and they become more assimilated.) I encounter Haitians daily at work and in private life (in public places). Except for one Haitian friend and her family, where I enjoy family get togethers.
I do not think that people who struggle with literacy are stupid. Nor ignorant. It does in fact surprise me when i encounter a person struggling to write their name. Illiteracy is a result of poverty. Whenever I encounter poverty I am immediately reminded of my fortunate circumstances of birth and my duty to my fellow humans. I think about white privilege everyday, privately and professionally. When I think about race relations in DR I try to avoid imposing American imperialism to other societies. When I am on DR1 I think about the strong corollary of white privilege and gringo privilege in the DR. Daily I think about how African Americans (culturally, not racially) are profoundly generous toward other persons of African descent who by the process of immigration gain some modified form of white/gringo privilege.
As a young man I was active, but never called myself an activist. You mentioned school of the Americas in another post. Have you heard of swords into plough shares? We had such activity in mass at fort Devens. I was arrested there in a non violent civil disobedience. Like an idiot, I put my life at risk protesting American intervention in Central America in the eighties. I bowed out of that particular group because they were a bunch of commies. The gringos, not the actual commies in El Salvador who 20 later rule the country. I long ago learned not to be fooled by lefties. Btw, I consider myself a lefty.
I mentioned it elswhere, but my guiding principle that keeps me balanced is a quotation by Gandhi. "Anything you do will be insignificant. It is very important that you do it."
Thanks again Annie. Genuinely.
Last edited:
Do you think that it was ever possible for a Dominican to marry a foreign woman here who does not have a passport?
Mofongoloco
thank you..
Anyone who has been jailed for justice is a friend of mine.
I do not know the specific "Swords to Ploughshares" group that you refer to - but certainly we are of like mind.
I, as well, have had difficulties with the Lefties, and confronted both Father Roy Bourgois, and Fellowship of Reconciliation, on the issue of just lumping the School of the America's protest into an anti-Capitalist..anti-neoliberal agagenda. I have the same difference of opinion with the Jesuits here. And with those who support completely open immigration in the refugee movement.
I am glad that you understand so quickly my points in your language and happy that I have come across as polite - I am not naturally so - naturally I am a rude and hostile bitch. But with 14 years of Quaker education, 20 years inside a Quaker meeting, and good medications, I have learned a bit to hold my tounge and temper my language. As I have said more than once to my home meeting in Asheville, NC - I am a remedial Quaker, some people are naturally quiet and well spoken, I am here for training - because I need to be- because I am naturally not a deeply Spirit centered, quiet spoken person.
I understand that this is a delicate issue and delicate times and after 10 years here have learned that Dominicans are extremely sensitive to what others in the outside world think of them. Like all of us, they want to be loved, and respected. And it does hurt their feelings when other nations, foreigners, and outsiders like myself, criticize them.
But, having served here - and that is what it has been- since I have filed stories for years, worked with the Haitian immigrant population, posted and cross posted in English and French, both on this forum, on my blog, and on Haitian list serves- for ten years.. and having traveled the country--- by bus, gua gua ..motor choncho, and car.. I feel that I have earned the right to speak.
So I am pleased that you are perceiving that I am being polite.
Manners do count for a lot.
(my great aunties would be VERY pleased!)
thank you..
Anyone who has been jailed for justice is a friend of mine.
I do not know the specific "Swords to Ploughshares" group that you refer to - but certainly we are of like mind.
I, as well, have had difficulties with the Lefties, and confronted both Father Roy Bourgois, and Fellowship of Reconciliation, on the issue of just lumping the School of the America's protest into an anti-Capitalist..anti-neoliberal agagenda. I have the same difference of opinion with the Jesuits here. And with those who support completely open immigration in the refugee movement.
I am glad that you understand so quickly my points in your language and happy that I have come across as polite - I am not naturally so - naturally I am a rude and hostile bitch. But with 14 years of Quaker education, 20 years inside a Quaker meeting, and good medications, I have learned a bit to hold my tounge and temper my language. As I have said more than once to my home meeting in Asheville, NC - I am a remedial Quaker, some people are naturally quiet and well spoken, I am here for training - because I need to be- because I am naturally not a deeply Spirit centered, quiet spoken person.
I understand that this is a delicate issue and delicate times and after 10 years here have learned that Dominicans are extremely sensitive to what others in the outside world think of them. Like all of us, they want to be loved, and respected. And it does hurt their feelings when other nations, foreigners, and outsiders like myself, criticize them.
But, having served here - and that is what it has been- since I have filed stories for years, worked with the Haitian immigrant population, posted and cross posted in English and French, both on this forum, on my blog, and on Haitian list serves- for ten years.. and having traveled the country--- by bus, gua gua ..motor choncho, and car.. I feel that I have earned the right to speak.
So I am pleased that you are perceiving that I am being polite.
Manners do count for a lot.
(my great aunties would be VERY pleased!)
So Annie, were you here when they started the "Plan de Declaracion Tardia"? They had "unidades moviles" all over he country. Even brought them to small towns. That was long ago. Even adults from campos and lomas who had never had a birth certificate and whose parents didn't have any were able to do the process.
Why didn't so many people back them take advantage of that if they were here back then?
Why didn't so many people back them take advantage of that if they were here back then?