This Electricity!!!

" Se fue la luz,se fue la luz!"

These "outages" follow no "rhyme or reason".I can only say one thing,when you go to rent an apt.,the person renting the apt.will swear that the lights "Never" go out in that area,or the water!I have an apt. in "La FE"near my work,where I go to "relax".After 2 years,I got tired of going there only to find the lights out.Even worse to start watching a movie and have the lights go out half way through! So I spend 16,000 pesos for a 2.4 kilo inverter with 4 batteries(Recomended by AZB,de Santiago,Fantastic price and service) and now the lights never "go out!" Go figure. When you have the pesos to do "something" about the lack of "energy" where you live,you need to consider many factors. Price,inverter vs. electric generator.Noise,generator,lots of noise,inverter none.Conveniance,carry gas for the generator(La Planta),add distilled water to the batteriec every week or two.Go "start" the generator every time the lights go out,inverter you might not even know that the lights went out! Generator=engine "fumes",invertor nothing. Your energy needs,do you have large use of electricity. You do have to replace your invertor batteries every 3 years or so,at 1000 pesos each.I have 4 batteries in my apt.,and 8 in my house.When the time comes for you to make a choice,there are 1500 "experts" on DR1 ready to voice their opinions.With luck your "barrio" will soon be receiving "luz",22,or 23,7!Criss Colon

Get an inverter

Jan: By now you should know...get an inverter. I actually save on my electricity and I adore blackouts!

You see....Even if a blackout doens't come in, I black out myself by turning off my electricity 7 to 9 hours a day and let my inverter work for me. So I only pay for half the electricity I consume at the cost of recharging my inverter.

TW

A few more tips on inverter (jan)

Criss is 100% correct in choosing inverter over a generator if your power needs are average (fans, lights tv etc).
I would like to add to what criss has stated: Always buy all new, name brand batteries. Never mix and match used batteries with new batteries. Old batteries have limited charging capacity so the charge won't last as long as the newer batteries. Thus, the newer batteries would not be able to charge fully when they are connected in parallel with the old batteries. Buy "Trojan" brand batteries. They are the best. 2 batteries will give you sufficient power for a short blackout (small TV, low consumption light bulbs, small fan etc), however, i recommend 4 batteries for long worry-free blackouts. If you add 8 batteries to a reasonable sized inverter, then you can even hook up an average sized fridge to the system.
Water doesn't have to be checked on weekly bases, on monthy bases is just fine.
Remember, generator not only makes noise and polution but also they break down on regular bases if not maintained well.
For me, I can't live without my inverter (money well spent).

Re: Get an inverter

golo said:

Jan: By now you should know...get an inverter. I actually save on my electricity and I adore blackouts!

You see....Even if a blackout doens't come in, I black out myself by turning off my electricity 7 to 9 hours a day and let my inverter work for me. So I only pay for half the electricity I consume at the cost of recharging my inverter.

TW

Click to expand...

You save money by charging the batteries and then running off the batteries?

TW for ceo of EDESUR!!

Damn,Jim you beat me to the punch! Now, TW is a "self proclaimed expert" on fashion,cars,girls,politics,basically everything,but I will not let him give the advice to "shut off the power and run off the inverter to save money"! I think we finally got him now!Unless he has one of those new "Energizer Bunny" inverters.The ones that take less "energy" to charge than they give out.Come on AZB,we got the "Great One"here.Lets hear some electrical engineer explain how TW,s physics don,t add up!I know TW must now "teach" us how electricity runs down hill in the DR.,therefore momentum makes up for the differance!Yeah Right!Criss "Sparky" Colon

TW, the master generator?

Guys, Guys, what is it with you? What happens when Edesur blacks you out? Simply put, if you have an inverter, you use it and you have electricity for 7 to 9 hours. It happens everyday.

Now, in my neighborhood where there are few blackouts, my inverter is always on and charging. If I turn off Edesur while I sleep I can use the charge to run my normal electricity(lights, fans, TV, computer, etc.) and my Edesur meter is off. Not anymore waste to my batteries than if you live in a neighborhood where there are continous blackouts. I can assure you that I can buy many more new batteries with the money saved. So far I have the same batteries from two years ago and still running. Miracle? I don't know, but maybe my brand is better than yours! Explain that one. I pay 50% of what I consume.

TW

AZB,mi Gran Pana

I thought that once a month was often enough also.When the batteries are more than 1 or 2 years old the water goes away faster.When they are really old,3 years plus,you sometimes find the cells 1/2 empty after 1 week.You can really get a long life from the batteries if you check the water level weekly after 1 1/2 years of use.Checking the water level in your batteries is like having sex,the more you do it,the more content you will be in the long run! and don,t forget to check "La Vecinas"batteries when her "Marido" is "por el interior"!I will once again publicly thank you for sending me to Eddy Nunez to buy an invertor.For 16,000 pesos I have a 2.4 kilo invertor,4 Trojan,(and we all thought they only made "preservativos")batteries,with a "first class" installation!I will now post his telephone # for anyone who needs an inversor.856-8029. AZB,am I your "Best Friend" now or are you still the "Lambonaso" de TW? Criss Colon

Por Jesus TW

Think of your batteries as a bank,and the electricity as pesos.This bank is not 100% efficient,and therefor if you "deposit"100 pesos on Monday,and want to "withdraw" 100 pesos on Tuesday,they can only give you back 80 pesos because 20 pesos were used up in the "transactions". Now your friend "Eddie Sur" will "deposit" 20 pesos into your bank,but you will have to pay him back later! I know you don,t believe me,but there must be "someone" out there who can explain to TW better than I,that there is no "Free Lunch" when you charge your batteries.You either pay now or pay later! Criss Colon

As I understand it

I think TW's reasoning is not correct, but far be it for me to pose as an Electrical Engineer!.
The banking comparison seems to be correct.
I think that perhaps the only way that the inverter use can be free is if you are using the sun to charge the batteries. We do this at the beach house and it works quite well.

Since I am one of those people with a generator in the back yard, I have to say that it works and we have lights when we need them. Last summer was really terrible, but you gotta do what you gotta do to have lights and especially if you have a three year old that wants to see the Cartoon network!!

HB

About TW's method.

I am not sure if you would save as much as 50% by using your inverter but I guess you might save some. If he shuts off his power at night then he may not be saving as much as he thinks. Explanation: I am sure he doesn't run an air conditioner with it so all he uses up is fans. Lights are off and TV is on for sometime before he hits the bed. He may use some low consumption bulbs and the fridge door is closed shut for the whole night, therefore, the cold stays in and the compressor doesn't start up as much as in a daytime (when everyone opens up the fridge door). He uses up his electric from the inversor at a time when his power consumption is low to begin with.
However, in the daytime he uses up the endenorte electric and also charges up his inverter. Yes, it is true that you don't use up so much current to charge up the batteries. It's a slow process and it takes hours to charge up. Therefore, i don't think he uses up a whole lot of power to charge up his batteries.
On the other hand, he is really abusing his batteries on daily bases. Remember: the light that burns twice as bright, lasts only half as long.
He would be killing his batteries on a faster rate as everyone else is in good times like these. Each trojan battery is priced at about $1345 pesos in supermercado national. You might be able to get it for about 1200 pesos/ each at a trace's distribution store.
8 batteries will cost you. Remember, like criss said, you deplete the efficiency of the batteries on each passing month. If you take a good care of your batteries, you may get 3 years out of them, but you will see a difference in their capacity after the first year and a half. The charge just doesn't stay as long.
So the answer is "yes" you would save money on the electric bill by using (golo) TW's method but you would end up burning your batteries at a faster rate.

For criss: I am glad that you are satisfied with Eddie's masterpiece and with his services. I have 2 of his inverters and I am a happy man. Funny, my TV doesn't know that the power is coming from a non-trace unit. His inverters are fast (computer UPS built-in switching speed) and reliable with variable fluctuating input AC.
As for being your best friend: I was not sure whether i hated you or simply abhorred your appearance on DR1, but when you mysteriously disappeared from this board (sometime ago), I, surprisingly, found myself worried about your health and for your well being. I guess I understand you a bit more now and see where you're coming from.

Good advice AZB

The bank account scenerio explains it well. The savings must come with less consumption. Most people I know use much less energy while on their invertor because not everything in the fuse or junction box is connected through the invertor.

I would recommend an inverter over a generator any day, unless you are in need of some sort of industrial machinary or air conditioning. When you look at the initial investment and costs of operation, an invertor makes $$$ sense within a couple of years. Not to mention the noise and the inconvenience of getting fuel and starting it up. You can also add you will be doing the environment a little favor.

Even using solar panels it is not free unless you get someone to give them to you.

Looking at the big picture, the amount of resources spent on back-up energy systems is a very inefficient and costly (per KW/hr). If they could just go the 22 or 23/7 route, as mentioned before, businesses and families will find a signigicant savings.

I guess TW, is one of the few people who actually are metered, and the bill reflects the actual amount of KW/hrs consumed. As anyone ever seen a meter reader? If billing actually reflected consumption you would find variations in the amount charged. Everyone I know pays a pretty much set amount whether they are metered or not. When I was paying for electriciy and left for 3 out of the 4 weeks, or was experiencing an incredible amount of blackouts, the bill was always the same.

For rural homes which are not metered, the practice is for someone to visit your home and determine you monthly charges based on how many light bulbs you have, and if you have a radio or a black and white or color TV and frig and a fan. This is done sometime after having the lines extended (it's free until they bother to visit to make the determination). Most families gradually increase their consumption as they acquire new applicances. I would be interested to hear what has happened in the last two years concerning billing. This is the key to fixing the problem. Until this happens, keep enjoying those blackouts TW. Rethink that saving with the invertor proclaimation. It is impossible. If you have everything hooked up to both systems (outside lighting, frig, hot water heater) you will find that you will lose a bit from inverting it and out of the battery, and you don't use 100% of the energy you put in the batteries. Once your batteries are full, the invertor should automatically stop charging or you can damage your batteries. You don't want to overcharge them or severly undercharge them. I recommend you caculate the amp/hours needed on the 6v Trogans where you generally don't go under a 50% charge. The life will be extended dramatically.

TW's post is wrong

His post makes sense on the "surface," if you don't take into consideration the extra electricity it takes to charge his now depleted batteries

don't any of you "engineers" remember the laws of thermodynamics, specifically that no energy is ever gained or stored but simply transferred? TW "transfers" his stored energy while using his inverters, the electric company then "transfers additional energy to recharge these inverters for which he is now charged. another law of TD, there is an infinite amount of enerygy, none is ever created or lost

TW and Janice are both right and wrong

The engineering aspect is on target. Like a bucket full of sponges with a hole in the bottom. Your consumption (inflow) is controlled by the amount of outflow (usage). But that's irrelevant.

Everytime TW squeezes that usage to a trickle, he is saving. Shutting off the inflow forces conservation. The more you do it, the more you save.

The true costs are:
1. The cost of the inverter, which is a "sunk" cost. If you don't use it, you lose all value.
2. The cost of of the batteries, which is a variable cost. Here, you have to maximize the value of conservation versus the cost of battery replacement. ie: Two people use the same system. One replaces batteries annually, the other every 5 years, at a cost of $200. If the annual guy saves at least $160 per year, his net cost is the same. Saves more than that? Gravy. Saves less? Stupid

The hidden costs are:
1. The cost when power is not available and you've already consumed your battery back-up. Downtime is invaluable.
2. The cost of things you forfeit when spending time and money on energy management. This is an opportunity cost which is also invaluable.

TW - You're paying for the rest of us

As an engineer who has worked in the power generation industry for the past 6 years, I can tell you that you will not reduce costs by shutting of your metered power and running off your invertor.

A lead-acid battery is typically 70% efficient, meaning to charge a battery that will provide you with 100 amp hours, you need to use 142 amp hours of power to charge it. So if you intentionally shut off your meter, you are paying the power company for more energy than you "used". In this example, you would have paid 42% more.

His thinking is clever, though, and the same basic principle of what TW is talking about is actually used by many hydroelectric power plants called "pumped storage" plants. Though his plan will not work at his home, it does work for power generators under certain conditions. The price of power on the open market (the stuff the distribution company buys) varies during the day (in a normal deregulated system, the DR's is a little "different"..hehe). Huge pumps are used to pump water to an upper reservoir during the night, or during times of "cheap" power. The water is stored there until the price hits a target "high" level (in the morning when everyone is getting ready for work, or in the evening when everyone gets home from work and fires on every electrical appliance in their home!), when it is run through the turbines and the power generated is sold back to the system.

Unfortunately, since residential rates are fixed, you cannot take advantage of anything like this. Add into the equation the wear/tear on the batteries, invertor, etc,...

The best way to reduce your power bill is to conserve, as someone already posted. Lower wattage bulbs, turning out lights when you are not using them, making sure your neighbor isn't patched into your metered power somewhere (like that ever happens!). The other way to lower the cost of power is to get the 60% of the people in this country that steal power to start paying for it!

cheers
marc

ref's
http://www.powerstream.com/SLA.htm
http://www.howstuffworks.com/question219.htm

The Reality and the Theory

Laws of physics and theories are great. They tell you exactly what is supposed to be under controlled conditions and as observed in the universe. But how they work in practice under a specific situation it is always very subjective.

I am very happy with the management of my inverter. The way I see it, in comparing my past bills with bills using my strategy, I have saved enough to buy new batteries, but my present batteries are still going and going and need no replacement. As important is the fact that when I bought my apartment it had the inverter and it was included with it, even though it had no bearing on the cost of the apartment(in this specific situation)

I also like the idea of deciding who and how I want to pay my energy. I hate Edesur and I rather help my local Trojan dealer than Edesur. I hate Edesur and it is my favorite sport to try to knock off as much as I can from their profits.

I do the same thing thing with my communications. But thats another story and much more complicated. But believe me, I am getting the best part of it in both cases.

For those water wizzards I also have a technique with the well water .vs. the CAASD water. Want to hear about it?

TW

Science and its application in the real world

TW...you are claiming that you get more power from your batteries than you are putting in! There is no way for you to use power in your house that you have not purchased from the distrib company, unless you are getting more from your batteries than what you bought from the grid.

If you still believe your theory to be true, you need to charge up your batteries once, then shut off your meter for good. Hook up your invertor to itself, so it will always keep charging itself (since it takes less to charge them than the power you are using). You will be able to use power from the batteries, and what you don't use will be used to charge the batteries.

The power companies would do this if it worked. They would charge up battery banks, then sell power from the batteries and only run their power plants 1/2 of the time, cut their costs in 1/2, and laugh all the way to the bank.

I would like to hear your theories on gravity, its "subjectivity", and how it does not apply to you! There are things in science that are simply theoretical and don't really work in real life as they do in a calculation (like ignoring wind resistance, calculating projectile paths, calculating the power consumption of a motor..etc). Then there are things that just cannot be avoided. You cannot claim that you have an over 100% efficient battery charging system.

Your water question is the same as your power question. Get a tank on your roof (Tinako?), fill it with metered water. Then shut off the metered water source. Use the water in the tank for 1/2 the day, then turn the water back on. See if your water bill gets cut in 1/2 as you claim is the case with your power bill. The good thing about the water version is that at least you will break even

marc

It's hard to convince orthodox scientists

The hardest thing to do is to convince orthodox scientists like Marc. But I only deal with practical things that are native to Dominican Republic. This country violates all rules of science.

Here is my the water bill for my building which I pay myself.

Water metered 500 @ $4.00=$2200
electric bill for water pump= 1000=$3200

Water by using well 500 @1.00=$500
electric bill for water pump= $2100=$2600

The total savings is $600. Clorification costs are equal. We also turn-off the pump at night when using the well after filling the "cisterna". The electric bill reflects common area illumination. There is little or no variation in this. We use the same lightbulbs all the time. We save $7200 a year and with the savings we are able to pay for any wear and tear repairs on the heavier use of the water pump. Beg to differ?

As for the inverter question, I will stick to my own program. As long as it has worked for me, it's fine. I have been using the same batteries since October 1999. I know they are older because the batteries were there when I bought the apartment.

Sometimes Dominican Republic does strange things to science.

TW