Ghetto Spanish- oh no! A Puerto Rican/ Dominican perspective

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
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I found this blog commentary which is a response to the question often asked:

'Do Puerto Ricans speak the Ghetto Version of Spanish?'

http://larespuestamedia.com/pr-ghetto-spanish/


The blogger Dorothy Bell Ferrer identifies as Afrolatina- Boricua/Dominicana and clearly is confident about her self identity (an absolutely positive aspect in my opinion).


She provides an in depth response to commonly asked questions about Spanish spoken in Puerto Rico and by Puerto Ricans in the US.

What I like is her response has substance and evidence of linguistic knowledge from a grammatical and cultural perspective. Whether I agree with her point of view or not had no impact on my ability to enjoy what she has written in response to this question.

Spanish spoken in the Caribbean is harshly critiqued by many Spanish speakers from other countries but when I read responses like this from the blogger it is inspirational to know that there are a few that can actually respond to the issue linguistically and culturally rather than a rant because one may feel offended.

At the end of the day the differences and understanding them come down to exposure. The more exposure you have to the varieties of Spanish the less of an issue it becomes. One may not like the way how Puerto Rican Spanish or Spanish from the Caribbean sounds (which is perfectly fine) however, the more a person understands about the history and the linguistic features the less likely an individual will describe such Spanish as the ghetto version.


-MP.
 
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JasonD

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Feb 10, 2018
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"I told her that Puerto Ricans speak perfectly Puerto Rican.

You see, personally I don’t speak “perfectly” Puerto Rican nor do I speak perfectly Dominican."


What!!!?
 

Marianopolita

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"I told her that Puerto Ricans speak perfectly Puerto Rican.

You see, personally I don’t speak “perfectly” Puerto Rican nor do I speak perfectly Dominican."


What!!!?

What is your take on the linguistic aspects of her commentary? The blogger has provided many examples.


Please provide your commentary on the grammatical points the blogger references.

Let’s hear your point of the view on that rather than what you pointed out because only the blogger can clarify that.




-MP.
 

JasonD

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Feb 10, 2018
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What is your take on the linguistic aspects of her commentary? The blogger has provided many examples.


Please provide your commentary on the grammatical points the blogger references.

Let’s hear your point of the view on that rather than what you pointed out because only the blogger can clarify that.




-MP.

Nothing to ponder about it. Her closing paragraph closes the deal very well;

"Puerto Ricans do not speak the

“ghetto version of Spanish.

” Puerto Rican Spanish is no less acceptable than any other Spanish no matter what Univision or Telemundo may have you believe or what gringo professors who struggle to understand the dialect may say"
 

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
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Nothing to ponder about it. Her closing paragraph closes the deal very well; "Puerto Ricans do not speak the

“ghetto version of Spanish.

” Puerto Rican Spanish is no less acceptable than any other Spanish no matter what Univision or Telemundo may have you believe or what gringo professors who struggle to understand the dialect may say"


Yes, but what is your opinion from a Spanish perspective since you have chosen to post? I know hers already from her blog.


There are a lot of linguistic references posted. What is your take on it? She has provided accurate references to Canarian and Andalusian influences as well as Taino and African features on Puerto Rican Spanish. 

What is your opinion and what do you think about PR Spanish as compared to other varieties?    


-MP.
 
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CRL2017

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Apr 25, 2017
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If people really understand how truly diverse and rich the cultures and Spanish language is in the various regions of Latin America then they would not make statements about one Spanish language being more 'ghetto' than another. That is just plain ignorant and stupid.

Thank you for sharing this blog. It is great to see but sad that we (as Puerto Ricans) and other Latinos have to always defend ourselves regarding our language use, the diversity of the color of our skin and our heritage because all many people see is what is portrayed (very negatively) on TV and in the media.
 

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
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If people really understand how truly diverse and rich the cultures and Spanish language is in the various regions of Latin America then they would not make statements about one Spanish language being more 'ghetto' than another. That is just plain ignorant and stupid.

Thank you for sharing this blog. It is great to see but sad that we (as Puerto Ricans) and other Latinos have to always defend ourselves regarding our language use, the diversity of the color of our skin and our heritage because all many people see is what is portrayed (very negatively) on TV and in the media.

I agree with you and in response to what you have posted first of all people do not want to understand. Let’s nip it in the bud right there. In general, it is easier to critique and show superiority rather than pick up a book, read and educate oneself. For some people that is asking too much.

In my world, I don’t hear Puerto Rican Spanish defined as ghetto Spanish too often but I have heard it. What I hear more often and it really irks me is that Puerto Rico the island is all English. Really? Not in my experience. The average Puerto Rican living on the island does not speak English. Therefore, tourists who visit anticipating hearing English are shocked that Puerto Rico is Spanish-speaking 100%. Is there English influence? Sure but to say the the island is English is ridiculous culturally and linguistically.

The blog is a brief summary of many of the features of PR Spanish that stand out when compared to other Spanish-speaking countries but these features are not unique to PR. They are features of the entire Caribbean basin. If you compare just the three Caribbean islands PR, DR and Cuba how different are they? Not very different. Accent wise yes, but they are very similar too. It depends where a population is from. Sometimes the similarity is scary but at the same time fascinating when you consider the history.

When I hear people critique Caribbean Spanish I see it as an opportunity to educate. There are aspects about Caribeean Spanish that I don’t like and some of the speech patterns have there time and place but it is no different than the features of Spanish particular to other regions and countries. For example, one aspect that I don’t like about Caribbean Spanish is the non-inverted questions. Phrases like - qué tú dice(s), qué tú piensa(s), qué tú hace(s) sound bad to me. However, it will be hard to find a speaker from one of these three islands that does not speak that way. As well, depending on one’s educational background those types grammatical nuances get fixed right away. However, there are many in the Caribbean that don’t even know it’s not the standard formation of a question. However, it is an idiosyncrasy of Caribbean Spanish. No me preocupo porque cada país tiene su forma de hablar. I just think blanket statements don’t help the cause.

Spanish television meaning the giant networks like Univision portray Caribbean Spanish very negatively. I listen when a  broadcaster or presenter attempts to imitate someone from the DR or PR and I always wish I can say to the person- really do you know ridiculous you sound? However, I am like the blogger. Knowledge is power. When the opportunity arises I try to educate the masses.


-MP.
 
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Marianopolita

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Here is another blogger's explanation of Puerto Rican Spanish and why it is not ghetto. It is just as enlightening as the blogger's commentary in my first post and this blog has good grammatical examples that really show the non standard speech patterns of Puerto Ricans which provoke the type of questions people ask about Puerto Rican Spanish.


http://www.peppyburro.com/blog/puerto-rican-spanish/


If you like grammar and your Spanish grammar is sharp take a look at these examples.

Look at point #1 and #2.

The blogger defines example # 2 as an anomaly in Spanish but it is not because no grammar rule today accepts that preterit form as valid. It is completely a regional form of speech.


Example #5 discusses the point I mentioned in my post above about the incorrect form of questions.

¿Cómo estás?

In standard correct grammatical Spanish the pronoun should follow the verb. This is an (incorrect) feature of Caribbean Spanish.


Grammar point #6 and #7 are interesting which discuss the usage of más in PR Spanish.



-MP.
 
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Marianopolita

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Spanglish boricua

Here is a You Tube video which provides examples of typical Spanglish used among Puerto Ricans. Many of the examples reflect the influence of the digital age meaning either usage of the English word completely or a hispanicized version of the English word.

Many of these words will not pass in other parts of the Spanish-speaking world that are not heavily influenced by English and some are just a lazy form of speech (in my opinion) or used for the lack of not knowing the Spanish word. For example: printear instead of imprimir and parquear y un parking instead of estacionar y un estacionamiento.

I was surprised that the You Tuber did not know how to say marker in Spanish. Really? Even if speakers use these Spanglish words I think it is important to know the real Spanish word which does exist.

Also listen to the pronunciation. The change of the R to L. Another marker of Puerto Rican Spanish.


[video=youtube;ZNoKzbMvqVY]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNoKzbMvqVY[/video]



-MP.
 
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CRL2017

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Apr 25, 2017
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This cracks me up. It is not only an evolution of 'Puerto Rican Spanish' but of Spanish in general. This is a sociolinguistic phenomena which has happened throughout the ages. In English we use many 'foreign' words that have merged themselves into the English language from French, etc. The Norman invasion of England in 1066 had a major impact not only on the country, but also on the English language. More than 10,000 French words found their way into English – words associated with government, law, art, literature, food, and many other aspects of life. About three quarters of these words are still used, and words derived directly or indirectly from French now account for more than a third of English vocabulary. In fact English speakers know around 15,000 French words, even before they start learning the language.

In Spanish we have approximately 10 - 15K of Arabic language influence by the Ottoman Empire when they were in the Iberian peninsula (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arabic_language_influence_on_the_Spanish_language). The 'true' Spanish is Castilian Spanish and everything else is a derivation of that - even in other parts of Spain. Spain has about 7 official languages in the various regions. I live in Germany and they have 'high German' and everything else (dialects and other regional languages).

The vowel variations across the USA for the English pronunciation and different dialects is influenced by the various European settlers that cross migrated to various regions in the USA. The Boston accent originates from the Irish community that settled there. Same goes for the Brooklyn accent and the Italians/Irish communities that settled there. I could go on and on...creole languages emerge in many parts of the world when you have movement of people settling and trying to incorporate their culture into the dominant one. In France they have tried to control the influence of English into the French language but it is happening especially because of the access to Internet and English as the universal language (which used to be French).

I grew up in New York and use French words, Yiddish words from many Jewish friends that I have and many of my bilingual friends code switch between their languages all the time. I have Korean friends who intersperse English in their Korean, Russian who do the same and many Spanish speaking friends from all over Latin America who speak a form of 'Spanglish.' I don't believe that this is a solely 'Puerto Rican' phenomenon. I enjoy this discussion and thank you for sharing...

I believe that you will see this more and more among the younger Dominican people because of the large amount of travel to and from the USA. It will take time but it will happen with their language use, like it happened in Puerto Rico - with an approximately 75 year history of the Puerto Rican community going back and forth from the US.
 

Marianopolita

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@CRL2017 et al.


I appreciate your post and believe it is just a general comment for all to read and respond to if they choose to do so.


A few things off the top that I read in your post that stand out to me are:


1) In my opinion, el mozárabe, the Arabic influence on Spanish does not compare to Spanglish. The occupation of the Moors in Spain for over 700 years and the impact left on the Spanish language includes words in the language that do not have an equivalent derived directly from Latin.

In the case of Spanglish all the words are an English spin off which makes people ask why invent a word when one already exists? Someone from Spain who does not speak English cannot understand janguear, printear, rufo, troca, un parking, un party, yarda, un building etc. it is foreign to them. Yes, language does change and evolve. It is inevitable but it does not mean that all these word creations should be accepted as part of the language. This is one reason why I appreciate the role of the RAE. Just imagine if anyone can invent a word and call it Spanish the language would eventually become mutually unintelligible and one of the beauties and strong points of Spanish is that it is the official language of 21 countries and the fact that it is mutually intelligible across all regions.


2) Spanglish is spoken mostly among Spanish speakers in the US and Canada (to a certain extent) but it is not widely-spoken throughout the Spanish-speaking world. In fact, it is the opposite. Yes, there are words that get peppered in the language due to exterior influences. However, in the heart of South America for example, Spanglish is not present not to mention Spain. English words get used for example for food like hot dog instead of using a literal translation which most often is worse. Spanglish is prevalent in the US where there is high number of Spanish speakers in an English-speaking country.

I also think of Spanglish as the choice of the speaker(s). Although one hears Spanglish and may be spoken to that way it does not mean the other speakers have to reciprocate. I don’t speak Spanglish simply because it was never encouraged in my circle and honestly, I like speaking English or Spanish without the need to code switch. The phenomenon lends itself to many questions and I think that is why you see these discussions, comments, blogs etc. on the topic because people don’t understand the why behind it. In my opinion, it can be as simple as when two languages co-exist the tendency to mix is inevitable or it could be as complex as the speaker does not have a full command of one of the languages or both therefore, code switching or mixing the two becomes the norm to communicate.


3) PR may take the hit directly from some language critics because of its relationship to the US and the inevitable English connection but really there is no other Spanish-speaking country or region that I can think of that has so much English influence linguistically. In many Spanish-speaking countries English is still quite a foreign concept. People have some exposure to it via technology, communication, foreigners etc. but there are many who don’t even have a television or radio. Therefore, how are they going to be influenced by English? As result, Spanglish is a foreign language and concept.

Honestly, what interests me more about these blog comments are the grammatical nuances in PR- Caribbean Spanish that differ rather than Spanglish. The invented words will continue to happen in the language. The noted grammatical speech patterns that are features of Caribbean Spanish have been existing since colonization in many cases and are still heard today. The grammatical patterns referenced in both blogs are just a few examples of the differences from standard Spanish that are heard throughout the Caribbean. In standard Spanish the forms are grammatically incorrect.

There is no possibility to say that verb conjugations like trajistes, comistes, dijistes, hablastes etc. are correct even though people speak like this. In my experience, the usage of those verb forms is split right down the middle and not limited to any one country. It is about the speakers and some are educated university level graduates which is surprising to me. Then you have forms like para yo saber, para yo decir which are typical of Caribbean Spanish and also incorrect. There is no need to place a pronoun in front of an unconjugated verb. One knows who the speaker is without placing Yo in front of the verb- For e.g. Para saber el significado busco en el diccionario vs Para yo saber el significado busco en el diccionario. It is nuances like this that I constantly observe.

I honestly don't see Spanglish being as impactful in the DR as it is in PR anytime soon. More heavy Dominican vernacular and slang, yes but PR style Spanglish, no. Dominicans in the DR are still very unilingual in general in my opinion.


-MP.
 

Derfish

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Jan 7, 2016
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But why in Miami do the Cubans and others refuse to use the word cita? the all learn early the word appointment and stick with that. My favorite spanglish I have ever heard is vacuum cleaniando!
Der Fish
 
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Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
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@CRL2017,


One other point from your post #11 is the words Castellaño and Español. Your experience and sources may differ from mine but at the end of the day these words mean the same. Castellaño which is Español today is used to refer to the region Castilla where it originated and was the name given to the language spoken in that region at that time to differentiate it from all the other languages spoken in Spain.

When a person says they speak Castellaño it means they speak Spanish or Español today as opposed to the other languages spoken in Spain and the origin is Castilla.

The interesting and to a certain extent laughable part of this to me is you hear some people say I speak Castellaño and I look at them and say yes so you speak Spanish and.... It gives them a sense of prestige and superiority.


In Latin America, there is no difference in usage in terms of the words. Castellaño or Español it is the same language. Again in my experience, I think it has to do with colonization. Some of the larger cities in South America still tend to use the word Castellaño to refer to the language. In South America, you will hear it quite a bit for example, Peruvians use it a lot, Uruguayans and Argentineans to a certain extent. I have had many compliments. People say to me hablas un buen castellaño. What it means to me is simply hablas un buen español and I say gracias. I have never been to Castilla but I have interacted with Spaniards and we have no problem communicating as it is the same language. It was brought to the New World and then got mixed in with other languages depending on what country is being referred to in Latin America. 


-MP.
 
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Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
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But why in Miami do the Cubans and others refuse to use the word cita? the all learn early the word appointment and stick with that. My favorite spanglish I have ever heard is vacuum cleaniando!
Der Fish

At first I was not going to respond to your post (really anyone can) because I don’t know how it is possible to know 100% why a person or group chooses a word or words over another unless we are talking about a known linguistic concept such as code switching or even Spanglish but after reading an article just now in Diario Las Américas I just thought of something.


In one sentence it is stated: es el acelerado proceso de urbanización y modernización del área del downtown y Brickell....I stopped right there and thought of this thread.


There is a concept known as Miami English and I believe some of the studies have been done by FIU (Florida International University). This is an example. It has been studied that people who live in Miami have a certain way of speaking English and Spanish to a certain extent. In the Spanish-speaking world of Miami you have the total Spanish speakers that have lived in Miami for decades, there are some that speak very little English and are no where near functional to hold a job, then you have the group that speaks like your and the newspaper example above. They use certain English words in the middle of a completely Spanish sentence, new foreigners in Miami that do not speak English at all and then there are the various levels of bilinguals and I say various levels because it does vary among those that speak English and Spanish.

In a nutshell, the answer to your question is Miami English. There is info if you search on Google.



-MP.
 
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Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
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This cracks me up. It is not only an evolution of 'Puerto Rican Spanish' but of Spanish in general. This is a sociolinguistic phenomena which has happened throughout the ages....



You mentioned sociolinguistics. Therefore, I knew I needed a quiet moment to touch on this point briefly as it is very important in this discussion of PR Spanish and language in general.

I always like to remind people language is culture and culture is language. The two go hand in hand. If you only have one of the two then you are missing the other 50%. In my opinion, this is part of the reason why you hear comments and read blogs, forums, essays etc. about PR Spanish in this case since it is the topic of thread about whether it is ghetto, a lower grade of Spanish, Spanglish or simply just what is it?

Yes, at first you might be agitated and disturbed by what you read but if you remain detached and understand why Spanish speakers and those learning ask the questions they do about PR Spanish you will realize it is tied to their own lack of knowledge. In my experience, leaving the grammar nuances aside one important aspect is the lack of understanding of what influenced the language in PR and I will extend it to the Caribbean vernacular as a whole. Once again it can be an opportunity to educate but pick your battles. I do. It is easy to see when a person’s comment is so off the mark. For those ones just move on. However, you will get some that inquire with linguistic knowledge but have no idea about Caribbean Spanish. These are the ones you may have an opportunity to enlighten in a conversation.

I looked for a simple resource that has PR Spanish (just words) as an example of the diversity of the vocabulary and that is also a clear reflection of the cultural elements and factors. After looking at it I thought this is why people don’t understand Spanish is a language of variety. The history alone reveals this. I don’t expect a Spanish speaker from Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Bolivia etc. just to name a few countries to identify with these words but it does not make it a lower grade of Spanish. Now if a Caribbean Spanish speaker critiqued the words one would have to ask them- qué te pasa. I know I would.

http://tayaboa.blogspot.com/2015/01/diccionario-boricua-asi-se-habla-en.html

When I looked at the list a lot of my questions have been answered. Many of words I have heard in songs but was not sure of meaning and all are specific to PR. Being an avid fan of la música tropical this list is a gift. Some of words reminded me right away of songs and specific PR artists that use these words often. For example, artists like Willie Colón, Caña Brava (La Chamaquita...ah), Los sabrosos del merengue, and Tito Rojas all came to mind when I read the list of words. Someone without the cultural component would think this is not Spanish. That is the sociolinguistic aspect that most don’t have. I don’t expect foreigners to have the knowledge but other Spanish speakers should know about the history and diversity that exists in the language.


A few words that stood right away:


bembé:- this has another meaning in the Caribbean other than the meaning provided

cafre- very Puerto Rican - the definition given is right on (I also feel there is another significance behind the meaning of this word)

candungo: envase plástico (bowl)- I never heard this word. I think the origin is evident.

enfogona'o/enfogona:- very Caribbean

fufú: This word has another meaning in other Caribbean countries other than the PR definition

jendío: borracho- I have never heard this word

revolú:- also used in other parts of Caribbean

yal: mujer, también se refiere a una mujer mal educada que viste y se maquilla de manera peculiar.- I have never heard that word. Oh my!


Words from songs that stood out right away are:

gata: mujer atractiva

pugilato: De "púgil" (peleador) Denota un enredo, lío, situación difícil.



It is easy to recognize the words of Afro origin.


-MP.
 
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