Us Air Chapter 11 United To Follow As Will American Pan Am Fly"s As Strong As Ever!!!

mark porter

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Jun 14, 2002
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Us Air Chapter 11 United To Follow As Will American Pan Am Fly"s As Strong As Ever!!!

As I have said many times the large carriers are in trouble. Us Air I doubt will recover and will go to the graveyard as will United, for I only see the Goverment willing to save one of the top three and i believe that will be American. Delta,Northwest,Contiental continue to loose money but not at a alarnming rate as American, United and US AIR South west as well as Jet Blue and Pan Am Delta Northwest and Continental will have to increase their flight capasity I believe that by doing so they will be able to handle the North american passenger Capasity. Pan Am continues to do very well and I for see a Pan Am/ Southwest alliance in the very near future. US AIR was a fun airline a mix of small regionals but it's time has come and we must say goodbye. Mark
 

GRS

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PAA/SWA?

You have proven your point that you have no idea what you are talking about. Btw, the Big carriers are not the only ones losing money!

Pan Am suffers $15.9m 4Q loss
Brendan Sobie, Washington DC (19Mar02, 17:20 GMT, 189 words)


Pan American Airways incurred a $15.9 million net loss in the fourth quarter of 2001 on $35.6 million in revenues.

New Hampshire-based Pan Am was one of the only US carriers to avoid capacity cuts and furloughs in the aftermath of the 11 September attacks. But the carrier suffered a $16.1 million operating loss in the first full quarter following the attacks despite claims that its low-fare business and unique strategy of serving secondary airports was holding up well.

However, Pan Am?s shift over the last year to focus more on sunspot destinations, mainly Orlando Sanford, has resulted in some financial improvement. The carrier lost $16.2 million in the fourth quarter of 2000, on $23.5 million in revenues. Pan Am began building a hub at Sanford early last year and it has since dropped a number of unprofitable point-to-point services.

This year Pan Am plans to focus more on the Caribbean in its latest attempt to reverse several consecutive quarters in the red. Pan Am?s parent, Guilford Transportation, has created a new subsidiary, Pan American World Airways, which plans to launch an operation in the Dominican Republic this summer.



GRS
 

mark porter

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Dear GRS you are correct that Pan Am has incurred to date relitivly small financial losses. Please try and remember that Pan Am recently aquired 10 Jetstream 31's Aircraft and 24 Boeing 727-200Adv aircraft. Pan Am has also just agreed to the purchase of an additional 16 Jetstream 31's Aircraft! None of this comes Cheap no matter the price. Also please try and remember that Pan Am has recently built Maintenance facilities in San Juan, Orlando, Portsmouth, and are now in the process of building one in Santo Domingo. It would only be natural for Pan Am to incure losses due to the amount of money that they are spending to establish them selves. I doubt that you have personally been in talks with Southwest and would have any knowledge of any alliances that are going to take place. Mark:angry:
 

Escott

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Sheesh Mr. Porter, all these things get depreciated over many years and are NOT reflected in the last quarters results. This only means that PanAm will do worse and your whole defense is a bunch of BS.

You stoop pretty low to push your airline. I defended uncalled for attacks on the credibility of PanAm previously but your lack of class in regards to this thread will prevent that in the future. Just as I thought that those attacks were indefensible I also think this thread is as well.

You are a disappointment.
 

Robert

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After a number of conversations with the people at Panam (US & DR), we feel that they are doing fine and have a bright future. They are building a maintenance hub in Barahona to serve the DR and neighboring islands. Their bookings are up and people are saying good things about them.

Time will tell...
 

Latino2002

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Jan 1, 2002
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usair

Delta has been try hard for the last 5 years to buy Continental airlines, But Northwest has the veto over Continental airlines.
Northwets reject the deal.

Now Delta is looking for codeshare with CO and NW..lets see what happend.
 

AZB

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Jan 2, 2002
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Latino, would you please keep me informed on this DL/CO code share deal. I would be very interested in seeing them join together on this venture.
Thanks in advance.
 
Apr 26, 2002
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Give Me A Break

Irrational exhuberance. I hate it. It's what made me launch into this topic previously. Now I'm glad that others see it too.

As a reminder, MARK PORTER HAS ADMITTED TAHT HE IS ASSOCIATED WITH PAN AM, AND HIS POSTS SHOULD BE TAKEN ACCORDINGLY. I have previously suggested that it might be nice if Mr. Porter offered to pay to advertise Pan Am on DR1.

To mention Pan Am in the same breath with Southwest Airlines and JetBlue Airlines is like saying Rembrandt, Da Vinci and Finger Paint in the same breath.

Pan Am is not a real airline. It's a plaything for a billionaire who fashions himself as a jet pilot. A "maintenance facility in Barahona"??? Jeez! Exactly how many jet mechanics do you think live in Barahona??? A "Pan Am/Southwest alliance", give me a break. That's like a marriage between Cameron Diaz and Don Rickles. Does anybody other than Mark Porter see a business rationale for Pan Am other than as a plaything for a billionaire (and I don't mean those who write messages to say "I flew Pan Am on the two days a week that it flies from Portsmouth and the flight attendants were very nice.")

Southwest Airlines and JetBlue Airlines are professionally operated and have sound, proven, innovative business plans. And, as we can now all see, they are, UNLIKE PAN AM, profitable and have been practically from their inceptions.

Please do not perform a post-mortem on USAirways until it's actually dead. USAirways has $1.2 BILLION in post-bankruptcy capitalization. USAirways is not going out of business anytime soon, and has announced that it intends to increase service to the Caribbean, including new service to Punta Cana.

Are the business plans of the big airlines proving to be unworkable? Absolutely. Will Southwest and JetBlue take over the world? They will expand, but not supplant entirely all of the traditional big airlines (You'll never be able to fly Southwest to Tokyo). Is bankruptcy a reasonable method of quickly (if not painlessly) changing old unworkable business plans while creating a future for an airline? In the case of USAirways, yes. In the case of United, who knows.

I'm glad to see the article about Pan Am's losses, not because I wish to see it do poorly, but rather as a challenge to the misleading and irrational exhuberance on this subject.

And, finally, for Jazzcom, who finally sees the light but had previoulsy accused me of libel on this topic, I quote from the District of Columbia Court of Appeals in the case Guilford Transportation Industries, Inc. (owners of Pan Am) v. Wilner (October 12, 2000):

"The implication in Wilner's [a reporter] column that Mellon [owner of Guilford and Pan Am) is a kind of dilettante, and that he, and perhaps Fink [President of Pan Am] too, lack seriousness as businessmen, is the quintessential kind of commentary -- provocative, perhaps, but hardly libelous -- which is entitled to protection under the First Amendment."
 
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GRS

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Southwest

Sorry for not replying, was out for the weekend.. Ok, Mr. Porter is saying that how the hell I know why Southwest isn't in talks with Pan Am. Well, the most simplistic answer is because they fly totally different cities.

Pan Am flies to Miami, Sanford, Portsmouth, Newark, San Juan, etc.


Southwest flies to Fort Lauderdale, Orlando, Islip, Providence, etc.

Why in the world would they like to make any type of agreement?
Southwest doesn't need an alliance right now, and is part of their philosophy of not making one...Do you know how many airports want southwest to fly there? Do you know why they don't fly to ALL airports? Because for them to enter a market they require at LEAST 8 flights a day. And they are never going to fly to airports congested or airline dominant..Why do you think they pull out of SFO and went to Oakland????

Now, I don't care what Pan Am does, if it does very good, I'm happy for them. But, as a customer perspective I am not going to fly an OLD boeing 727 built in 69. And why they are building all these maintenance bases? Does the aircrafts break too much that they need to have it.

Now, back on Pan Am (again)...Building a maintenance base on Barahona..What market do you have in Barahona to justify a maintenance base over there...Aircraft hours and lots and lots of fuel burned going there.....

I really don't know what your position is in Pan Am just hoping you are not a manager there since its been clear that you have no idea on how aviation works. And when you are going to post a BS of such magnitude, please have a source where you can justify it.

GRS
 

GRS

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Porfirio

Sorry,

Didn't read your reply before posting mine...It would save me couple of words since you had already posted some things I did post on my last reply.

Anyways agree with you 100 percent.

GRS
 

Robert

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Jan 2, 1999
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Re: Give Me A Break

Porfio_Rubirosa said:

And, finally, for Jazzcom, who finally sees the light but had previoulsy accused me of libel on this topic, I quote from the District of Columbia Court of Appeals in the case Guilford Transportation Industries, Inc. (owners of Pan Am) v. Wilner (October 12, 2000):

"The implication in Wilner's [a reporter] column that Mellon [owner of Guilford and Pan Am) is a kind of dilettante, and that he, and perhaps Fink [President of Pan Am] too, lack seriousness as businessmen, is the quintessential kind of commentary -- provocative, perhaps, but hardly libelous -- which is entitled to protection under the First Amendment."

Isn't PanAm owned by a completely different group now?


Now, back on Pan Am (again)...Building a maintenance base on Barahona..What market do you have in Barahona to justify a maintenance base over there...Aircraft hours and lots and lots of fuel burned going there.....

I believe PanAm was offered a very attractive deal by the DR government. Barahona is a "modernish" facility that is very under utilized. They are making the DR their Caribbean hub. I assume they will bring in their own engineers to start with?

Let's see, if they go belly up in 12 months some peoples opinions came true, if not, then we have another alternative to AA.

Personally I'm all for PanAm doing very, very well, it can only be good for travelers, that's me and many others that use this board.
 
Apr 26, 2002
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Timothy Mellon

Yes, Timothy Mellon is still the owner of Guilford Transportation, a small railroad company that has owned the name "Pan Am" since the late 1990s. Guilford bought the name (only) "Pan Am" from the trustee for the previously bankrupt airline (a.k.a. "Pan Am II"). The Mellon version of Pan Am is often referred to as "Pan Am III".

Timoth Mellon is an heir to the Mellon (Pittsburgh) banking fortune. Carnegie-Mellon University is named after his family.

Robert, I too hope Pan Am does well. Why spite them? And of course competition is good. But let's be realistic. When people spout about how Pan Am is going to serve dozens of cities from the Dominican Republic, build maintenance facilities, and turn SDQ into a hub, I can't help but be sceptical. This same Guilford-owned airline (Pan Am III) has begun service to other cities, and then quit flying to those cities alltogether. These included Saint Louis, Gary-Chicago, Allentown and Pittsburgh.

Don't feel bad if Pan Am pulls out of the DR after a few months. The press in Saint Louis, Gary, Allentown and Pittsburgh bought what was fed to them by the airline too.
 
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Escott

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I just dislike people that knock others to sell their own product. If it can't stand on its own without putting competition down I don't like it.

I still feel the same way about your posts. You sound like a disgruntled baggage handler who was fired for sleeping in the back of your tram. You try to draw pictures that don't go in straight lines in order to justify your hatred of this company/Airline for some reason which I don't even care about. I, like Robert am just happy to see competition and the possibility of bringing the prices down. After all I am just a cheap gringo traveler who hates to pay a lot for this muffler.

Regards