DR College Educatoin

mondongo

Bronze
Jan 1, 2002
1,533
6
38
DR College Education

For those of you familiar with the University scene in Santo Domingo and Santiago: I read on the DR1 news that a significant portion of college graduates have professional degrees (such as engineering). What do they do and what kind of incomes do they garner upon graduation? This is relevant because one of the problems facing the future economic growth of the USA is lack of trained professionals..mainly engineers.

1) Is there a significant, untapped source of engineering talent in the DR?

2) Is their training comparable to that received in the USA?

If the answer to both of these questions is YES...then opportunity awaits.

Would love your opinions...especially from those living/having lived in the DR

Edited to spell "Educatoin" correctly...I guess CC reached the correct concensus
 
Last edited:

x_man

Bronze
Jan 1, 2002
668
0
0
mondongo

are you kidding? You don't really expect an answer from this crowd.
Write an email to HB, Pib. X

Edited to add some contend to this: Here in Silicon Valley engineers are
walking in the streets, layoffs everywhere. My longtime buddy
(20 years) got axed last friday. Hanging in there X
 
Last edited:

mondongo

Bronze
Jan 1, 2002
1,533
6
38
definitely a shot in the dark, x-man.....if you're in telecom these days, you are difinitely hurting....many other disciplines also....the catalyst of my thought was seeing a friend of a friend leave a good job here in the states to work for an engineering design center in India...in fact, a lot of the USA educated Indian (and other) nationalists have gone back to their country to start many high tech companies...I'm just wondering out loud if there could be a competitive advantage to making use of an inexpensive but motivated educated work force....and whether these Domincan engineers are trained to the highest standards...
 

Hillbilly

Moderator
Jan 1, 2002
18,948
514
113
Until 1962, the only degrees offered in the Dr were Law, Medicine, Arquitecture and Civil Engineering.
With the opening of the PUCMM in Santiago, Electro-Mechanical Engineering came on line, as well as Education, Nursing, Ecomomics, Business Administration. the first university based computer center prompted the Computer Engineer program, Geology followed, then Industrial, Telematics, and finally Systems Engineering..

Other universities, like INTEC and UNPHU and UASD have followed. There are several very High-Tech industries situated in the Free Zones that are manned by DR graduates.

In general, I would say that a graduate of any of the upper crust universities can hold his/her own with a graduate from most US universities...at least it seems that those that do do graduate work in the States seem to come out quite well. A lot have been stolen away from the DR, that's for sure.

Mondongo, I am sure you know that India is the heart of the programming industry....Guys that were in the States on special visas had to re-locate back home but they took with them the management techniques and the market knowledge to make a go of it over in India.

HB
 

mondongo

Bronze
Jan 1, 2002
1,533
6
38
Thanks for the info, HB. I looked at some of the university websites and did not find as much information as I hoped. It appears that there isn't much devoted to my specific area of interest. My guess is that there is a lot of info not posted on th website...if only there were a DR engineering graduate lurking here somehwere...oh, well...
 

Jim Hinsch

Bronze
Jan 1, 2002
669
0
0
geocities.com
Anybody that has an Engineering degree and has worked as a professional engineer (like me - Chemical Engineering) knows that VERY little of what you learn in college will be used in practice. Almost everything is learned on the job and is very specific to the industry you work in.

Ditto for Computer Science.

I've been interviewing and hiring professional programmers for years and I won't touch a college graduate without at least 2 years experience and I'll hire an experienced programmer over a college educated but with much less experience in a heart beat. What you need to know just isn't taught. The university is a great broad level training. Chemical Engineers are taught mechanical, electrical, civil, metallurgical, nuclear, and systems engineering, but just the basics.

You can ONLY learn what you need to know by working in the field as the most current technologies are either too new to make it into the education program or proprietary, only known within the specific industries.

Yes, some of the hottest technologies come direct from the university. Go try and get a job with it. That and a bus ticket will get you on the bus.

That said, I've got a lot of buddies that have engineering degrees from great universities. They work as engineers. We have these discussions all the time, and most of them can't remember even basic things that were taught in the second year. And they don't need to know either. In real life, everybody specializes in a very specific sliver in the field.

I worked making paint. Do you think I learned ANYTHING about making paint in college? I am a wizard programmer. Do you think the kind of programming I do is taught in schools? If it was, they would not be paying so much money for the few that can do it.

Besides, most of the guys I graduated with were good on paper and that's about it. The captains of the industries will tell you the same.

There are exceptions but the above is the rule.
 
Last edited:

x_man

Bronze
Jan 1, 2002
668
0
0
Jim,

I do treasure the basics I was taught in school because they make it so
much easier to keep up with the changing technologies because they too are
based on ....... the BASICS.
But that does not mean you can relax for a couple of years if you don't want
to be a gonner.
Anyway I hope you know about the fate of engineers and salesmen?
In the end the eng's know everything about nothing and the salesforce
knows nothing about everything. X

Back to Serena and Venus
 

mondongo

Bronze
Jan 1, 2002
1,533
6
38
Speak for yourself, Mr Hinsch

Jim, Your post leaves me in an uncorfortable position. I am forced to ponder 2 scenarios that are not necessarily mutually exclusive:

1) You didn't learn anything in college.
2) Making paint is not a science.


Is it a surprise to you that making paint is trial and error process not easily modeled by chemistry/physics/math? Isn't "color" a very subjuective topic? Is green described by its electromagnetic spectrum?....by its chemical reaction to certain agents?....does the perception green depend on other colors physically near it? does it depend on the type of light reflecting from it?...does it depend on the person viewing the color green?

I am frankly stunned to see someone who purports to be intelligent make such sophomoric statements. Let me say that it is clearly obvious even to a blind man that experience is just as important as raw intelligence. Who would you rather hire..an experienced worker who phucked around in college and learned squat....or an experienced guy who learned his basics?

P.S. What a caboose and set of headlights on Serena!...wow..
 
Last edited:

Jim Hinsch

Bronze
Jan 1, 2002
669
0
0
geocities.com
Well, I've had this discussion before here. Tell me what experience you have to know what you are talking about.

Color? Great, you know the theory. Here we use a colorimeter and eyeballs.

Paint? Great, you took some courses in polymer synthesis. We buy our resins. Our formulas are secret. Here they are. Get mixing and find out why it is screwed up at our customer's site.

You took artificial intellegence in school? Great. Now go fix this bug in the accounting software and while you are at it, we need a new report generated. Here's what they want on it. Ken here is going to work with the users in coming up with the screen. You go write a server to produce the report. Real high-tech.

The real point I wanted to make prior was that quality engineers are not a product of their education. They are a product of their experience and natural ability. Their education is mostly wasted. I learned all kinds of incredible things in school. Like how to design a nuclear reactor, how to build advance electronic circuitry, how to process metals and synthesize polymers, how to build bridges, and compute the probability of just about anything. I learned how to build heat exchangers and distillation columns, molecular theory and thermodynamics. Sadly, no matter what job I take, 90% will never be used. Specialization is the name of the game in engineering and that education begins on the job.

So nobody will ever care if I scored well in fluid flow or analytical geometry, organic chemistry or advanced physics. What I need to know, I learned on the job. This is how it works in the field of engineering. You learn a little about everything, then work in one small area and most of it will be forgotten, including where you went to school and what grades you received.
 
Last edited:

sjh

aka - shadley
Jan 1, 2002
969
2
0
52
www.geocities.com
i agree whole heartedly with jim here. As a professional computer programmer, I learned everything i needed in the first week of compsci 101... how to use a compiler.... Everything else has been useless...
 

Jim Hinsch

Bronze
Jan 1, 2002
669
0
0
geocities.com
Hillbilly said:
... I am sure you know that India is the heart of the programming industry....HB

The USA is the heart of the programming industry. Probably something like 85% or more of software is American made. There are a lot of Indians in medicine and programming working in the USA but nowhere near as many as there are Americans.

They just happen to be one of the biggest groups of foreigners in the industry and there is a minor trend to contract well defined projects out to cheap foreign firms (that do a very good job sometimes). Microsoft has some major operations in India. It still pales compared to what is done in the USA.

The programming business isn't as hot as it was a few years ago, especially if you are plain vanilla (as is taught in schools). But the big guns (Mainframe and Minis, Unix networks, ) have never stopped developing. Lots have open reqs at all times. They can't find people with the skills needed. A good programmer can ALWAYS get a job, it just might not be a 200K/year this year and they may have to relocate where the action is.

The dot bombs dropped but they were never the heart of the industry. Sure they got all the hype. Internet Internet. They mostly used small computers. Those programmers are a dime a dozen right now and disappearing fast as they "move on". Watch for a shortage as the internet continues to grow.

Large corporations all have big data processing departments with years of work on queue, from bug fixes and enhancements (that will NEVER get done) to the latest rewrites and new projects. Budgets have been cut, but attrition is very high in data processing and competition to get the best talent is fierce.

What other field outside of celebrities can you quit and come back the next day at double the pay, because you decided to wise up and go "independent", where vacation days are unlimited and hours are as you please, where you can work when and where you want, or dress the way you want, or can command great respect yet only be 25 or 30 years old, where you can actually become a millionaire while working for someone else.

Most programmers are earning US$25-65/hr but I know a heck of lot that earn US$100-250/hr (and they work a lot of hours).

When a programmer complains of unemployment, it is because they aren't willing to take a pay reduction, change skill sets (it's almost like starting over for some), or take just "any" job.

I'd say this training is about the most secure background a person living in an industrialized country can have right now. It is probably the easiest to go solo, and hasn't even begun to see its growth potential. This is the information age.
 

GringoCArlos

Retired Ussername
Jan 9, 2002
1,416
40
0
Re> Mondongo's starting post: It seems to ME that the future economic growth of the DOMINICAN REPUBLIC depends on having enough trained engineers and others as well, to do the necessary work to make THIS country prosper, and one day get off the US's welfare wagon.
 
Last edited:

mondongo

Bronze
Jan 1, 2002
1,533
6
38
gang tackling!!

I never claimed that education is superior to experience. Depending on what you do, you might need more or less training before the job market is willing to further train you. When hiring someone, the most recent experience is often taken as an indication of future performance. If you are 2 years removed fom college, then candidates with good college training will have the upper hand. If you are 10 years removed from college....then college training is of little importance.

What I guess I did not make clear in the Original Post was that the free market is not willing to take an uneducated campesino and traing him/her for many years before he/she becomes productive. On the other hand, If there were already a source of well eductaed Dominicans who were willing to work for less pay than their USA counterparts....then.....this might provide an incentive to attract foreign capital and brain power.

I am personally not keen on the idea of the DR economy mostly dependent on exporting natural resources, tourism, and cheap manufacturing labor. To rise above the level of 3rd world country, the DR needs to compete in the high paying jobs areas. The first step is a well educated work force (mothing knew there).

GringoCarlos...you make a great point....to compete internationally...the DR mentality does have to change to the "GET THE JOB DONE" mentality that you find in all the top notch Western companies. That is something that can be taught....I hope.
 

Jim Hinsch

Bronze
Jan 1, 2002
669
0
0
geocities.com
That's why the DR needs foreign companies right now. A degree in the DR right now, while a very good thing, is still very difficult to put to good use because there just isn't a lot of industry or what there is doesn't pay much. There is more industry than the other Caribbean islands, but it still lacks opportunity. There headed in the right direction though. What other Caribben island has a cyber park, toll roads, and 5 international airports?

The DR is poised to become a major financial center and they refine their banking laws., the new high end tourist and golf haven, to become a major trading partner, and to lead Latin America into the next generation. Tourism still has tremendous room for growth.

To deal with the rest of the world, they need to learn a thing or two about quality, productivity, substance behind the face, honor in business, customer longevity, and seeing things from a grander perspective. Foreign influence, with all its bad things, still is an overall a postive thing .

They don't need so engineering degrees just yet, they need foreign influence. Investment. Infrastructure. The schools should put more concentration on life skills. Wait, that's where I see them heading. Horaay! So long as the bottom doesn't fall out before they get there.

That's why I've always said that education is not the immediate priority. First infrastructure, then industry, which brings jobs, training, skills, and money to feed their families (so as to not always be on the brink of desperation), then formal education, culture, and civility.

Back to the original post, a bunch of degreed engineers isn't much of a resource to tab. A bunch of experienced engineers would bring the world knocking that their door. Think Germany. They are reowned for engineering education, they are renowned for engineering marvels. Japan isn't known for their education as much as their manufacturing efficiency and quality controls. People go their to see them operate their factories, not how to run a good university.

How can one be prompted not to throw trash if it isn't being collected and burns in the street?

How can one be prompted to drive correctly when the roads are chaos.

How can one take time to be in school when the school doesn't even have a working toilet, the roads close when it rains or the schools close because the roof leaks.

What is the motivation for education if half the degreed people are working in clerical positions. I see a lot of people that are in school now that don't care about learning, they care about passing. It is not good when the degree is more important than the education and knowledge.

What good is an engineer that has never worked in the field and probably won't.

Someone needs to drill it down their throat that haste makes waste, the rest of the world will walk if you cheat them, and a win by deceipt is not a win but a nail in their own coffin. Things don't just need to look like they work, they really do need to work. That a house, an SUV, a couple cell phones, and a suit and tie do not impress people from the industrialized countries - they want function before face.

Don't foreigners get so annoyed when that well dressed and straight faced looking manager stands there looking important in posture and elegance while even the most simple problems don't get tended? Don't they know that time is money? That being made to wait in lines doesn't signify importance? That a fancy lobby doesn't go as far as good food with good service? That nice shoes aren't as important as reliability? That the ability to garner wealth by cheating your neighbor is frowned upon?

Engineers indeed.