Actually Rob, many of the students who will be affected by this policy are Dominican immigrants. I teach bilingual and ESL Social Studies classes in NYC. 75% in the Spanish bilingual program are Dominican. I'm suprised Mass. took the same turn as California in regards to bilingual education. The core problem is that 25-50% have serious literacy issues which are not addressed. The immigrant students who are reading and writing at grade level in their native languages go through the bilingual program in 3 years or less. Because immingrant kids are a nicer bunch to teach than native born kids, many want to stay in the classes because of the more positive environment. I am always advocating for students who are programed in the ESL program or the bilingual program who do not belong there. There is a big hueco in the system. I read the article about the IDB loan to the DR for education. This sounds like it is going to set up the administrative structure for the program. Who knows if phase 2 will ever happen. Too many Dominican students enter the US system at 14 or 15 and are 2-4 years behind in grade level and can barely read and write in Spanish. They will probably eliminate bilingual education in NYC someday also.
- Thread starter Tom F.
- Start date
Bilingual Education/Dominicans
Tom
I hope they don't. I live outside Niagara Falls in Upstate and if INS ever get off their a** my wife and step-daughter should be here early next year. Because there are not many "Hispanics" in my area there are no formal programs. I was talking to the school last week and they are telling me that because some of their teachers have Spanish minors, they are going to place her in the main class, but for 1-2 hours each day they will be working with her one on one in a ESL type environment. Every time I go down I bring back Spanish children books. I hope that she can maintain her language and learn to read and write both Spanish and English.
Jerry
I hope they don't. I live outside Niagara Falls in Upstate and if INS ever get off their a** my wife and step-daughter should be here early next year. Because there are not many "Hispanics" in my area there are no formal programs. I was talking to the school last week and they are telling me that because some of their teachers have Spanish minors, they are going to place her in the main class, but for 1-2 hours each day they will be working with her one on one in a ESL type environment. Every time I go down I bring back Spanish children books. I hope that she can maintain her language and learn to read and write both Spanish and English.
Jerry
When I came to the USA from the DR I spoke ZERO English. I was in the 6th grade. I enrolled in a school which had ZERO spanish speaking teachers/students. For 3 months I was totally lost. But survival insticnts kicked in and I was forced to learn the language ASAP. I am totally for English immersion in the USA. When you are in the USA, English is not your second language, its your first language. Learn it.
Conversely, when foreigeners come the DR and complain about not finding enough English speaking natives....tough shit. Spanish is the first language. Learn it.
Conversely, when foreigeners come the DR and complain about not finding enough English speaking natives....tough shit. Spanish is the first language. Learn it.
This is a very hot issue in the town I live in since it is a Spanish community. The families in my neighborhood have children who are now 3rd generation immigrants. I hear the children outside playing and ALL of them are speaking English except on the weekends when they have large family gatherings. Thier parents and Grandparents do not speak English at all and some of them have been here for 25 years. The kids have been in a good school system where they have had bilingual classes.
When I moved to Santo Domingo I spoke no Spanish at all. I felt the same as Mondongo; meaning that I felt if I was living in a Spanish speaking country that it was up to me to learn thier language and not for them to know English for me. Most of my friends prefered to speak English with me so they could learn from me. I had to insist that they speak Spanish so that I could live in thier country. I spoke bad Spanish but asked them to correct me when I had the grammar wrong. I also hired a private teacher which helped a lot. It has been 5 years and I still do not speak perfect Spanish(but I do not use it daily now) so that is one reason I feel total immersion for immigrants is not good. I have seen and heard both sides of the issue and I hope the school systems deal with each ethic group on an indvidual basis.
When I moved to Santo Domingo I spoke no Spanish at all. I felt the same as Mondongo; meaning that I felt if I was living in a Spanish speaking country that it was up to me to learn thier language and not for them to know English for me. Most of my friends prefered to speak English with me so they could learn from me. I had to insist that they speak Spanish so that I could live in thier country. I spoke bad Spanish but asked them to correct me when I had the grammar wrong. I also hired a private teacher which helped a lot. It has been 5 years and I still do not speak perfect Spanish(but I do not use it daily now) so that is one reason I feel total immersion for immigrants is not good. I have seen and heard both sides of the issue and I hope the school systems deal with each ethic group on an indvidual basis.
I will always be thankful to my teachers at Colegio Sagrado Coraz?n de Jes?s in Santiago. All classes were in Spanish except English (in which I always got notas az?les). They expected me to do math, and science. I learned the periodic table in Spanish. I learned many physics concepts in Spanish. By the end of the 8th grade, I had learned enough Spanish to memorize my first passage in history class. My proudest day was to stand and recite the paragraph in front of the whole class. Pretty good for someone who didn't recognize their own name on the first day of class. I had learned enough Spanish to place in to 3rd/4th year Spanish back in the states the next year.
Bilingual classes would have delayed my learning of Spanish.
I was fortunate to have come from a private American school into an excellent, not international school in the DR. I don't know if kids moving to the states have the same educational advantage or even the patient teachers I enjoyed.
mk
Bilingual classes would have delayed my learning of Spanish.
I was fortunate to have come from a private American school into an excellent, not international school in the DR. I don't know if kids moving to the states have the same educational advantage or even the patient teachers I enjoyed.
mk
Jerry, Good luck with the school. It sounds like they are very accomodating and have the time to work with her. Your are lucky. The situation in New York City is quite different. Most schools are overcrowded unless you are able to get your kid in a special type school which usually take the top students.
Others, I agree that immersion is good when the student has the proper foundation, support and learning environments, and the resources which often times allows them to attend private schools. I see Dominicans, Polish, Chinese, Iraqis, and students from all over the world in my ESL classes. I don't speak all their languages and besides Spanish, we only have a Chinese bilingual program. I have students from Pakistan, Ivory Coast and many others who have no idea what I am saying let alone me understanding what they say. Try reading their research projects. At the high school level, students lose quite a bit in their subject areas when it is not in their first language. The early grades are much different. We only teach Math, Science and Social Studies in the native language and the remaining classes are all in English with 3 periods focusing on the English language. These kids don't get the individual attention they need if we had a total immersion program. 30-35 kids in a class for 40 minutes a daily with limited materials. I bet the colegio had a little better student to teacher ratio.
The exceptions are kids from wealthier families who went to private schools or the kids from European countries where many learn English in the native country.
Others, I agree that immersion is good when the student has the proper foundation, support and learning environments, and the resources which often times allows them to attend private schools. I see Dominicans, Polish, Chinese, Iraqis, and students from all over the world in my ESL classes. I don't speak all their languages and besides Spanish, we only have a Chinese bilingual program. I have students from Pakistan, Ivory Coast and many others who have no idea what I am saying let alone me understanding what they say. Try reading their research projects. At the high school level, students lose quite a bit in their subject areas when it is not in their first language. The early grades are much different. We only teach Math, Science and Social Studies in the native language and the remaining classes are all in English with 3 periods focusing on the English language. These kids don't get the individual attention they need if we had a total immersion program. 30-35 kids in a class for 40 minutes a daily with limited materials. I bet the colegio had a little better student to teacher ratio.
The exceptions are kids from wealthier families who went to private schools or the kids from European countries where many learn English in the native country.
Mary, absolutely great!.....I had a similar experience in Guatemala.
While I wouldn't mind getting paid to teach in a Bi-lingual Program after I retire completly here, I like total immersion.....
Kids up to 15 are sponges with language. Like Mondongo said: he had to learn, and he did...
HB
While I wouldn't mind getting paid to teach in a Bi-lingual Program after I retire completly here, I like total immersion.....
Kids up to 15 are sponges with language. Like Mondongo said: he had to learn, and he did...
HB
When I first came to the U.S when I was only 8 years old. My parents enrolled me in a bilingual program at a private school. I was in the program an entire year and I still didn't know any english. It wasn't until we moved to Denver, CO that I was forced to learn english. At the time there were no biligual programs in the Denver school system even though there is a large population of mexicans there. I was the only spanish kid in my school so it wouldn't have made any sense to have a ESL program anyways.
Had it not been because of the lack of choice I think it would've taken me much longer to learn english. We were only in Denver for 8 months but by the time we got back to NY I had to start taking spanish lessons again.
Kids pick up language much quicker than adults, If I did at the age of 9 and in only 8 months I am sure other kids can do the same.
Had it not been because of the lack of choice I think it would've taken me much longer to learn english. We were only in Denver for 8 months but by the time we got back to NY I had to start taking spanish lessons again.
Kids pick up language much quicker than adults, If I did at the age of 9 and in only 8 months I am sure other kids can do the same.
Mary and HB, I third that with my experience in Venezuela. Sink or swim, baby. After seven months everything was swimming along beautifully in my brain.
When I came home my senior year I took an independent Spanish 3 course (my only "formal" training). In my current job I had to take a proficiency exam in order to be exempt from having to take 30 college credits in Spanish. I took the MLA exam and tested at native proficiency.
Darlins, I was only in Venezuela eleven months....IMMERSION WORKS.
Edited to tell Tom F.: I hear you with the ESL program at your school, though
. I had much less pressure on me to perform...and would you believe my high school in Maine didn't accept my transcripts...made me wish I'd skipped more often to go to La Mansion Del Pan with my friends!
When I came home my senior year I took an independent Spanish 3 course (my only "formal" training). In my current job I had to take a proficiency exam in order to be exempt from having to take 30 college credits in Spanish. I took the MLA exam and tested at native proficiency.
Darlins, I was only in Venezuela eleven months....IMMERSION WORKS.
Edited to tell Tom F.: I hear you with the ESL program at your school, though
. I had much less pressure on me to perform...and would you believe my high school in Maine didn't accept my transcripts...made me wish I'd skipped more often to go to La Mansion Del Pan with my friends!
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The biggest thing that I worry about, is that she might fall too far behind. She is all ready coming in mid year and then even if she takes only 6 months to learn ..... she just might be doing first grade again. I am hoping that between her mom and me, we can keep her up to speed. I figure that the immersion part will pretty much be everything else. Her friends, family (except mom and me) only speak english. At 6 I figure that she will be real quick at picking it up.
I gues time will tell.
Jerry
I gues time will tell.
Jerry
You will be surprised at how well she will be. At six, nothing really bothers them....Fall behind? As a bilingual child? Now that's funny....They aren't teaching astrophysics at that level are they? John. John sees the dog. See the dog? that is John's dog.
HB
Just a thought: My 4+ yr old grandson, that lives with us, has only heard me speak to him in English. I have been quite thorough on this, and it does cause him some problems. He will answer anything you ask him in English, but he answers in Spanish. I haven't the heart to force him to go it in English. Pretty soon, though. And in his English class in school, he is very restless, since he has been hearing "Eye blinkers, nose smeller,,, mouth eater, chinny chin chin!" Since he was 12 months old...
HB
Just a thought: My 4+ yr old grandson, that lives with us, has only heard me speak to him in English. I have been quite thorough on this, and it does cause him some problems. He will answer anything you ask him in English, but he answers in Spanish. I haven't the heart to force him to go it in English. Pretty soon, though. And in his English class in school, he is very restless, since he has been hearing "Eye blinkers, nose smeller,,, mouth eater, chinny chin chin!" Since he was 12 months old...
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My stepson took ESL Classes( Grade 5) for 2 hours each day, and then for Grade 6, it was sink or swim. Now he is in Grade 7 and although not fluent he is getting C+s anf Bs in School. At home his mother speaks to him mainly in Spanish but as all TV is in English, his stepbrothers only speak English and there is only a small Latino population here( many orientals), he has been forced to learn English. It is expensive to provide ESL in the school system, but if you want people to fully intergrate in to a society, it is necessary. I would vote for it. Of course, here in British Columbia we have French immerision schools and spanish and chinese are taught in many schools also.
Put your kids in Chinese classes....They will be ready for the next generation of business. Just think how few Westerners speak Mandarin!!
HB who wished he spoke more and more languages....
I just found this article on CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/11/09/fbi.linguists.ap/index.html
HB who wished he spoke more and more languages....
I just found this article on CNN: http://www.cnn.com/2002/US/11/09/fbi.linguists.ap/index.html
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There was a news special here the other night that kind of goes hand in hand with the CNN article. It stated that many people were hired without the proper security checks and they actually hired a "spy". What this lady was doing, was to leave important information out of her translations. Basically they read stuff and write up a translation of the parts they believe to be important, the rest they just place a comment that says not of any importance. There was another lady that turned her in and was fired. Image that. Anyways after a further investigation they found that the lady in question was the girlfriend of one of the guys that they were investigating and she was leaving out alot of things from his phone call transcripts. Turkey the country was mentioned, but I do not remember if that was the country that he was from or she was from. Amazing part was firing the person who reported it. That makes no sense to me at all.
Jerry
Jerry
Cognition
Great posts, good topic.
I just wanted to add that I wonder if full immersion is going to make teaching a bit more difficult in some aspects. I currently have classes where some of the students are borderline college level and others (in the same class) that have trouble forming a complete sentence verbally, nevermind written.
The challenge of keeping both groups involved and interested can sometimes be quite difficult - Hell hath no furry as a bored 7th grader. In bigger schools it may be easier to break the groups up by more specific skill levels, but that requires another teacher, which requires more money and........ on and on.
On a positive note, I think that full immersion will have some peripheral benefits as well. Students will begin to acquire problem solving skills more rapidly and that should elevate their confidence. In turn that confidence should carry over to other subjects and throughout their lives.
Great posts, good topic.
I just wanted to add that I wonder if full immersion is going to make teaching a bit more difficult in some aspects. I currently have classes where some of the students are borderline college level and others (in the same class) that have trouble forming a complete sentence verbally, nevermind written.
The challenge of keeping both groups involved and interested can sometimes be quite difficult - Hell hath no furry as a bored 7th grader. In bigger schools it may be easier to break the groups up by more specific skill levels, but that requires another teacher, which requires more money and........ on and on.
On a positive note, I think that full immersion will have some peripheral benefits as well. Students will begin to acquire problem solving skills more rapidly and that should elevate their confidence. In turn that confidence should carry over to other subjects and throughout their lives.
I agree, great topic!
My family (both parents and 6 siblings - I was then born in the US a couple years later) went to the US when all the children were under the age of ten - back in the 60's.
All the children were speaking Spanish in 3 months time and fully accustomed to the school system. Therefore, I'm all for "full immersion".
I do wonder however; if things would have been different if my siblings would have been older (say... around 14, 15, 16...) when peer pressure, self-confidence and the like, kick in. Would they have fallen behind or developed an inferiority complex because they would have cared more about what others were thinking and saying about them?
I don't know the answers but it may make sense to have bilingual programs for certain age groups (ex. older kids 16, 17...) who may have difficult times learning a new language.
Just a thought.
My family (both parents and 6 siblings - I was then born in the US a couple years later) went to the US when all the children were under the age of ten - back in the 60's.
All the children were speaking Spanish in 3 months time and fully accustomed to the school system. Therefore, I'm all for "full immersion".
I do wonder however; if things would have been different if my siblings would have been older (say... around 14, 15, 16...) when peer pressure, self-confidence and the like, kick in. Would they have fallen behind or developed an inferiority complex because they would have cared more about what others were thinking and saying about them?
I don't know the answers but it may make sense to have bilingual programs for certain age groups (ex. older kids 16, 17...) who may have difficult times learning a new language.
Just a thought.
My wife teaches ESL in a public school here in Miami. 95% of the students in here school are Latin. Even she thinks it does more harm to the children and society than it does good. ESL is just another of those "feel good" programs that the Liberal controlled education system forces down our throats.
We don't have ESL at our school. We had one girl last year who did not speak great English and was failing. Her mom pulled her out and put her in public school. She recently told me that now Agnes is on the honor roll. She went through 6 months of ESL and then was told she didn't need it anymore.
I have never been in an ESL classroom but I imagine it could be confusing or chaotic--just as if they were placed in English classes right away. What is the real difference--what do ESL programs do that helps ease that confusion and chaos?
I teach Spanish to 7th graders and have found with this particular group, the more Spanish I speak to them, the more challenged they become and often rattle out whatever I have said in English. On days when I speak as much as 90% Spanish to them, they are really on their toes and feel a great sense of accomplishment when they figure out what it is I am saying
In my 8th grade class I have a girl who went to an immersion school for Spanish and she is completely bored--she should be reading novels instead of conjugating verbs. In her old school they taught three subjects in Spanish and the rest in English.
I have never been in an ESL classroom but I imagine it could be confusing or chaotic--just as if they were placed in English classes right away. What is the real difference--what do ESL programs do that helps ease that confusion and chaos?
I teach Spanish to 7th graders and have found with this particular group, the more Spanish I speak to them, the more challenged they become and often rattle out whatever I have said in English. On days when I speak as much as 90% Spanish to them, they are really on their toes and feel a great sense of accomplishment when they figure out what it is I am saying
In my 8th grade class I have a girl who went to an immersion school for Spanish and she is completely bored--she should be reading novels instead of conjugating verbs. In her old school they taught three subjects in Spanish and the rest in English.
ESL and Bilingual
Programs are different depending on the state and the school district. States with more immigrants have legislated the issue and the courts have set a few precedents. The Pueto Rican lead the initial fight. Most programs are being dismantled around the nation. The Department of Education website has a bilingual education section with a lot a good information. In NYC, schools are supposed to have teacher of the native language of the students when there are 20 or more students whose first language is other than English and have a common language. Obviously Spanish is the most common program. Chinese is offered in many schools and I have heard of a Haitian Creole program somewhere in Brooklyn. The students who do not have a teacher available in the native language for Math, Science and Social Studies, they are in the ESL program. All students in the ESL and bilingual programs take one regular English class and a double period ESL class. This is basically another English class with a teacher who is trained to deal with English Language Learners and they like to call them now. The other English class is taught by a regular English teacher.
The students in the ESL program tend to take their subject classes together because of how programs are put together. These teachers focus on content when evaluating students rather than their English skills. It is hard and no one is directing this in the schools, but rather teacher to teacher in it's imprementation. Students in both programs are given extra time when taking Regents Exams (state tests) and allowed to use a glossary of terms in their native language if we have it. I give consideration on the amount of time they need for tests in my classes. That is about it. In NYC, about 75% of the students in the bilingual Spanish programs are from the Dominican Republic. ( I had to get that in Rob)
If you remove the students who do not have literacy issues from the program, it is a huge success. I counted today in my eight period ESL class and 8 out of 28 where born in the US. These kids got to HS and because they have a Spanish last name and low English Lab scores, they are first put in the Spanish bilingual program and after and made a fuss, they were put into my ESL class. I thought they would go into regular classes. Everyone is happy because the ESL classes are nicer places to be and we will work more with the students' literacy issues than they would in regular classes. It's really a messed up system.
Enough for now.
Programs are different depending on the state and the school district. States with more immigrants have legislated the issue and the courts have set a few precedents. The Pueto Rican lead the initial fight. Most programs are being dismantled around the nation. The Department of Education website has a bilingual education section with a lot a good information. In NYC, schools are supposed to have teacher of the native language of the students when there are 20 or more students whose first language is other than English and have a common language. Obviously Spanish is the most common program. Chinese is offered in many schools and I have heard of a Haitian Creole program somewhere in Brooklyn. The students who do not have a teacher available in the native language for Math, Science and Social Studies, they are in the ESL program. All students in the ESL and bilingual programs take one regular English class and a double period ESL class. This is basically another English class with a teacher who is trained to deal with English Language Learners and they like to call them now. The other English class is taught by a regular English teacher.
The students in the ESL program tend to take their subject classes together because of how programs are put together. These teachers focus on content when evaluating students rather than their English skills. It is hard and no one is directing this in the schools, but rather teacher to teacher in it's imprementation. Students in both programs are given extra time when taking Regents Exams (state tests) and allowed to use a glossary of terms in their native language if we have it. I give consideration on the amount of time they need for tests in my classes. That is about it. In NYC, about 75% of the students in the bilingual Spanish programs are from the Dominican Republic. ( I had to get that in Rob)
If you remove the students who do not have literacy issues from the program, it is a huge success. I counted today in my eight period ESL class and 8 out of 28 where born in the US. These kids got to HS and because they have a Spanish last name and low English Lab scores, they are first put in the Spanish bilingual program and after and made a fuss, they were put into my ESL class. I thought they would go into regular classes. Everyone is happy because the ESL classes are nicer places to be and we will work more with the students' literacy issues than they would in regular classes. It's really a messed up system.
Enough for now.