Europe/Egypt threat to Dominican Tourism!

MommC

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What a trip it was!!! We had a marvellous time and laid to rest many unfavourable impressions that had been with us since our last trip to Europe 10 yrs ago.
Everywhere we went the streets were clean, no "homeless" refugees sleeping in doorways and no stench of urine near the train stations where hundreds of Eastern refugees used to hang out.
The European countries we visited have made a great effort to control "illegals", clean up the litter, and re-habilitate many of the architectural treasures that make Europe what it is.
Paris was teaming with tourists, both North American and British,Italians, Germans, Dutch and Eastern European. Even though it was officially "off-season" the streets and tourist attractions were swarming with eager sight-seers! I could imagine what it was like during "high" season.
During our travels we stayed mainly in five star hotels and resorts. What a change from 10 yrs ago! No longer were rates in the $450-$600US range. The highest rate we paid was $368 Euro at the Schwiezerhof hotel in Lucerne although that included wine, water and fruit in the room,breakfast in the morning,free internet and I forget what else! These prices were regular season prices as "low season" doesn't officially start until Oct 15-Nov. 15th depending on which country you're in. While there were still the "stop light vendors" and "street hawkers" in evidence in some of the countries , they are not aggressive and wait for you to call them over or go to them.
Meals everywhere we went were excellent and very reasonably priced, about what you would expect to pay at home in a better restaurant for a four course meal with apperatifs, wine and digestivo. Of course we stayed out of the "tourist" restaurants and made sure we found bistro's and trattoria's where the "locals" ate. It was a gourmand's delight!
In Northern Italy we met many.many tourists from all over the world but most notably Britain,Canada and USA who were doing the "Cooking and Wine tasting" tours of Tuscany.
These tours have become Very BIG sellers and more and more people are joining in the fun every year. They're largest comment to us was that they had grown tired of doing the "Florida/Carribean" thing and were really impressed with the European tours!
Egypt was the biggest surprise of all!! Not at all what we were expecting for a third world country!!
Our first stop was Sharm El Sheik which we expected to be a "tourist" centre much like the Dominican North coast or Punta Cana/Bavaro area with resorts near the sea and small,dirty villages
nearby. What a shock to find a HUGE "city" that was made up of resorts only!! NO villages at all and everything was first class and SPOTLESS! Even with the sea at one side and the desert at the other!
There were workers cleaning everywhere 24/7 and I'm sure you could have eaten your goumet dinner right off the sidewalks outside the hotel.
English and Italian are the languages most commonly spoken although you would be fine with French or Arabic also.
We were told that 1 1/2 million Italians visited the area this past season (not including guests of other nationalities) and that 2 million are expected for the comming season. There are at present 75,000 hotel rooms in Sharn El Sheik and by the end of March 2003 there will be 100,000 rooms.
Now let's not forget the Na'ama Bay is just a 20 minute bus ride away and this total does not include the rooms there!
The whole area is geared to families and couples who wish a quiet, sun-filled getaway but at the same time there is lots of night life and casinos to be found! Baby-sitting services and "kids clubs" make it extremely easy to vacation with your children and have them well cared for when you wish to have some time without them. Also not a "putana or sanki" to be found!!
We met several Americans at our resort who "overlooked" the State Dept's warnings about the area because they wanted to "dive the Red Sea" and had already postponed going several times. They told us they were definitely coming back next year and would be bringing others with them!
In case you're interested a one week AI from Rome or Milan will cost you about $900 Euro although most Italians get the "half board" for a week's cost of $670 Euro's. Half board gives you breakfast and lunch included and you pay extra for dinner. Which is great if you want to leave the resort and go to one of the restaurants along the "sea walk" which runs for miles along the coast. Most of the resorts have their specialty restauants right on the "sea walk" so you can go for a stroll, stop in a bar for a before or after dinner drink and then choose which restaurant you'd like to have dinner in.
Again the food was out of this world and costs very reasonable.
Cairo was a real treat! For a city with over 18 million people in the desert it was a whole lot cleaner than we ever thought possible. Again prices were very resonable,service better than exceptional, food was unbelievable and we only wished we had more than two days for sight-seeing.
We'll definitely go back!!
As more and more people become aware of the fabulous vacation opportunities in the area I can see less tourists frequenting the DR.
The impression we formed was that the Dominican Republic will become less and less a "family or couples" vacation spot and more a "sex trade" hot spot.
Tourists do NOT like to be stuck in a resort so they won't have to see garbage all over, especially when that's all they see on the way from the airport to the resort. Nor do most want to be propositioned every five minutes by either a "vendor" or a "sex seller".
All feedback welcomed!
 

Robert

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Has the DR developed in the past 5-10 years into a better quality tourist destination? Yes.
Just look at Punta Cana and new developments like Cap Cana.
When Cap Cana is finished, it will be without doubt the best quality and most talked about destination in the Caribbean.

Will the DR get better? Of course.

DR as a sex trade hot spot? I don't think so. You only need to look at the numbers that visit the DR to realize that it's a very small and declining part of the overall visitors.
Will sex tourism continue? Yes, just like in 95% of the other countries on this planet.
Would you not go to Thailand, Brazil, Philippines etc because they have sex tourism?
Of course not, 95% of the tourists that visit these countries go for the cultural experience and tourist attractions etc.

Compared to Europe, tourism is very much in it's infancy here in the DR.
Europe and the DR are two very different experiences. It all depends in what your looking for in a vacation? Comparing the two makes no sense, as they are as different as chalk and cheese.

I'm glad you had a good vacation, welcome back!
 

Ken

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MommC Should be Banned

Robert, don't you think that mommC should be banished from the board for bad mouthing the DR and promoting another destination?LOL
 

bob saunders

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So, MommC, What were the negatives on your trip. Past experience tells me you must have a bunch of gripes also. I'm envious because I have too many commitments to be able to take off on an extended vacation like you, maybe in another five years, I'll have that freedom.
 

Bugsey34

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First time I have ever agreed with MommC

But I agree with Rob that you can't really compare the two. One has thousands of years of well preserved history and the other a colony that only gained it's independence in 1844.

However, I hate to break it to you Rob, but after living in Italy and Spain for a year, just about anyone I ever mentioned the DR to said that they only thought of it as a "sex trade" destination, where men went to pick up local girls and it was most often coupled with Cuba in this generalization. The only Spaniards I have ever met that didn't think this way was a friend of HB's in Madrid and another family I met while ion vacation in Sosua.
 

Hillbilly

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Jan 1, 2002
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MommC: As I see it, you had a great time in Europe, and that is good. I thought that while they do Wine and food feasts, here in the DR we could do Rum and food fests. Why not? It just takes some initiative.

On the other hand, your trip to Egypt was rather disappointing. It seems that you were kept away from anything negative in your complex of 75,000 rooms and elegant restaurants on the beach...And all the foul Med to swim in....Anyway, I realize that Egypt does have it's attractions and , of course, the Red Sea is a diver's paradise. But remember, it is closer by far to Italy and the rest of Eurpoe. Good for them.. And it is good for the DR to wake up!

On the other hand, unless you take a bus to Jarabacoa, there is little chance that 25 tourists will die or get machined gunned in the DR.

And, if I can get some support, we will clean this place up...

HB
 

MommC

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Thanks Bugsey! Those were some of the comments we heard too especially when people found out we wintered in the DR!
Some Italians come here to get their scuba certifications however diving itself was much less expensive in Sharm than it is here in the DR!
As for negatives.....well let me see! The trip home via British Airways (never again!!!), missing our train three times (we were just a tad late once and the other two times the train that we were on to connect to another was late in arriving -regional trains versus inter city or high speed trains.)
Not having enough time in the various cities to see and do all we wanted to (a "negative" to every vacation I think!).
All in all there really weren't many negatives- at least far fewer than the last time we went! I guess you could say Europe and Egypt were very "user" friendly this trip! :)
Speaking to friends since we've come back (all of whom have been to the DR once at least) they've all stated that they've been considering one of the "cook & wine" tours or bicycling/hiking tours because of good things they've heard. Only one couple has expressed interest in returning to the DR (if we can get them a deal on golfing and an apt for a month!!).
We also have friends that we met in the DR from Europe-some of whom have been travelling to the Dr for about 10 yrs. who have told us they would gladly meet up with us at the Red Sea however they are no longer coming to the DR., prefering instead to go to the Red Sea or Morocco (which is becoming another mecca for European tourists).
We've noticed the decrease in Italians travelling to the DR in recent years and Germans also. Hasn't anyone else???
 

MommC

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Well HB.....apparently in Sharm things are VERY secure and we did witness the security both at the airport on arrival and departure and also when we took a side trip to Ras Mohammed - a protected national park area.
Cairo and Giza were also well protected however we did hear of one "trouble" spot that might pose problems if you are travelling by road from Hurgada to the Valley of the Kings (where we didn't have time to visit but plan to our next trip.)
We've often said we'd like to visit Egypt and the Red Sea especially since hubby is a Divemaster (and except for our time in Cairo we were on the Red Sea and no where near the Med) however due to all the negative publicity and "happenings" we've never gone. Now that we've been we'll definitely go back (like maybe next year???)
 

Golo100

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Mommc

What is interesting about your analysis is that without you even noticing it you visited an arab league dictatorship, where the word democracy has never been heard of. If we had Trujillo you would have no garbage. But he is gone. Mubarak is in. So is the kingdom of Morocco, another distatorship.

Next time you analyze these things take into consideration the type of country you are visiting. Most people who post in this board are oriented towards living in DR permanently, for business or half and half.

Would you live in a country like Egypt? Or Morocco? I somewhat agree with you about the sex thing. But more than anything I believe people also consider the peace factor and that in DR you can do whatever you please.

TW
 

Robert

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Re: First time I have ever agreed with MommC

Bugsey34 said:
However, I hate to break it to you Rob, but after living in Italy and Spain for a year, just about anyone I ever mentioned the DR to said that they only thought of it as a "sex trade" destination.

I never said the DR didn't have a reputation, all I said was that the statistics on tourism show that it's a very small percentage of overall travelers to the DR. A percentage that's on the decrease...
 

MommC

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What! Egypt is NOT a democracy???? Whatever was I thinking!!!
Of course you have put your finger on one of the most prominant differences between these third world countries. In a democracy one has more "freedom"!
Too bad the Dominicans use theirs to despoil the country they live in!
Too bad "Hippo" and his cronies don't realize just how much they are jeopardizing their own future and the future of the country they "rule". Too bad that four years after the electorate puts a "dictator" in place they get to replace him with another just as eager to "cash in" on the Dominican style of democracy.
Is Dominican tourism in jeopardy?? You bet.....even now they are attracting mainly lower class tourists (those vacationing on a shoe string) or those looking for unlimited "cheap" sexual opportunities.
Those willing to pay a higher price for a much higher standard vacation are staying away from the island in droves.
Would I live in Egypt ? Probably not (though I might go to stay awhile as a quality control manager of a soon to be completed tourist complex.)
But then again if I didn't already own a home in the DR I probably wouldn't buy one there today having seen how the country has gone so far downhill recently.
Yes there are new complexes opening and yes they will attract "snowbirds" for a while but then the same thing will happen to them that has happened to the smaller,older resorts that lent so much charm to the DR when we first started going there almost 13 yrs ago. They're all mainly run down, closed, abandoned and generally an eyesore.
Even the older resorts that we saw in Egypt were still operating, well maintained and VERY different from what you see in the DR.
 
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Jim Hinsch

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The DR has it's reputations, but across most of the USA (outside of NYC and Miami), most people still don't know a think about the Domincan Republic, let alone associated it with that rep.

Level 1 knowledge:
Images of somewhere in Central America
Machine guns manned by teenagers in the back of a pickup truck.
Banannas.

Level 2 Knowledge:
Drugs and baseball players coming in off a clandestine rowboat after a week adrift in the sea, showing up on the shores of Miami.

Level 3 Knowledge:
Travel agent sent my cousin's neighbor's boss's sister's family to a Playa Dorado [sic]. It was cheap. Real cheap. Mediocre all the way around.

Level 4 Knowledge:
Travel agent sent my friend's parents to Punta Cala [sic], or something like that. It was awesome. It's the new Cancun (not!). That's where OJ goes to play golf and Michael Jackson got married.

Level 5 Knowledge:
Me and my friend just got back from the Dominican Republic (wink, wink).


Rarely do I encounter the level 5. My first trip to Rio de Janiero however brought on the instant wink, wink.
 
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Robert

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MommC said:
Is Dominican tourism in jeopardy?? You bet.....even now they are attracting mainly lower class tourists (those vacationing on a shoe string) or those looking for unlimited "cheap" sexual opportunities.
Those willing to pay a higher price for a much higher standard vacation are staying away from the island in droves.

What statistical data do you base the above on?

When you show me something concrete based on real numbers, then I'll reply in depth.
 

MommC

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No numbers Rob.......just the observations of Juan Dolio and Boca Chica,Guayacanes over the past few years.
I know Punta Cana/Bavaro Bayahibe are pulling in the North American tourists with their newer,larger,better resorts but according to the numbers posted on the DR1 news regarding tourism even there the numbers are down.
Most have been chalking it up to 9/11 and the downturn in the American economy however it appears that the European (Italian,German, French) numbers are down also.
The Red Sea area and Morocco however are showing phenomenal growth in numbers of European visitors.
It was a real eye opener for us to talk to the people there (a bit of an inside view due to the fact that our niece is a tour operator to those areas and our vacation was a working trip for her) to hear how much they are doing to be able to accomodate the increasing number of tourists. An expected increase of half a million visitors from Italy (one country only) to Sharm El Sheik (one city only) is staggering if one considers how many European countries there are and how may Red Sea areas there are.
We met people from at least eight countries while in Sharm (American,British, French, Romanian, Bulgarian, Italian, Australian, Astrian, Swiss -ok that's nine-you get my drift!). Also the addition of 25000 rooms in a six month period is also kinda mind-boogling.
So while tourism numbers are down (even here in Canada) the areas we were in (and I do include Italy, Switzerland and France) were showing an upswing that is unparallelled in the DR.
Hey...I live in the DR too! I'd like to see it develop into the paradise it really could be especially having just come back from a place that truly IS a paradise!!
 

mondongo

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I think we need to listen to MommC and others who are voicing their opinion re: DR as a tourinst destination. The impression I have from a lot of the North American posters here is that the DR is in decline.

The facts are that the DR does NOT have 5-star hotels. I wanted to go to the DR for my honeymoon a while back....but went to Four Seasons in Nevis instead. There is a siginficant difference when venturing outside the resort. The DR is by far more of a hassle. The motoconchos....the soliciting....the garbage...the loitering....its unmistakable.

If you are a tourist with big bucks....you are not going to go there. The lack of existence of high-priced hotels is the proof.

I am not suggesting that the DR govt/private business gear their policies toward attracting big tourists dollars...just merely opining on why this does not seem to be happaening now.....and to boot, I didnt even bring up government corruption.
 

JOHNNY HONDA

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A viewpoint as seen by Johnny Honda as a hotel chain employee

Americans on N.Coast up by good %Breezes super clubs takes over resorts on north and south coast
Hilton carribean takes over management of 4 Coral resorts north and south coasts,its a damn good beginning,those of us in the know understand one thing,you start at the bottom and work your way up,if I didnt believe in this country and its potential I would move.Luckily I have seen ups and downs and I believe this country will improve with time and that time is soon no matter how many times stupid politicians try to **** it upJohnny Honda
The Power Of Posiyive Thinking;)
 

MommC

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Thanks Jim and Mondongo......
I was hoping to encourage further observations from some of the "regulars".

Another thing I noticed this trip was the proliferation of clean public restrooms fully equipped (meaning there was "carta higenica" in all) everywhere .Last time it was a BIG problem to find a rest room and then mainly they were dirty and had no paper or if they were clean they had a "cleaning lady who "sold" you the paper. This time it was no big deal and only the train stations charged .60 Euro to use the facilities. Of course there they also sold shaving kits,or "lady kits", or toothbrush and toothpaste kits for travells caught unprepared! The only pay toilet we came across in France was at a bar/bistro on the Champs d'Elysee that was in a high traffic area and the bartender gave the patrons the .10Euro coin for the coin lock on the door. A high number of the facilities had "automatic" crappers that not only self flushed but also self cleaned the seats or seat covers were in a dispenser right on the wall in the stall. The only "dirty" (and it wasn't really) facility was right next to the pyramids at Giza and they did have an attendant who gave you the paper (however it was a long way from a "clean" water source so left a little to be desired but it was still usable "Dominican style" and did NOT smell!!).

Upper middle class tourists from Europe and North America are becoming much more discriminating and do NOT wish to see garbage everywhere (shouts UNHYGIENIC and unsanitary) nor do they wish to venture outside the resort to mingle with the natives knowing (or at least suspecting) that they will not find adequate restroom facilities at their disposal. They also are looking for a minimum of four star accomodation and many , especially with the proliferation of "air travel" points, now look for 5 star hotels. We stayed at several Hilton HHonors properties compliments of the Hilton "point" program.

Forget higher class tourists......they have no interest at all in the DR and to them Casa di Campo is a country unto itself.

I don't think that the hotel owners can do it all themselves! Other than what they have been doing by making their properties as presentable and accomodating as possible, the country (aka gov't and people) must CLEAN up first, then build or upgrade the "tourism" infrastructure (restrooms,restaurants) to welcome visitors and encourage them to come back and bring friends!!
 

Escott

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I went to a Karate Competition on Saturday in Westchester County to see my daughter compete. She took 3rd place btw:.

I was talking to an elder woman who appeared to be wealthy. I was surprised when she asked me if I had been to Casa de Campo. She loves the place. Usually no one is familiar with the DR when I mention I am going. Seems as if I am also seeing it being pushed by Liberty Travel more now than a year ago. Sunday the DR had their own Liberty Travel Advertisement.

So while I have to agree with many about the negative at times I see the possibility of things getting better.

Go figger...
 

swake

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Frankly I'm not with you on the 'sex hot spot' issue. Perhaps perceptions in Italy and Spain are different but I can't imagine that the DR is seen as a prime sex destination in north western Europe. Most Europeans book packages, mainly Playa Dorada and Punta Cana (seems to me that La Romana attracts more US visitors), and I can't imagine they'd even think about 'putas or sankies' when booking their AI dreamholiday. Would anyone think of Amsterdams red light district or Hamburgs Reeperbahn when booking a city break there?

As for Egypt I'm even more surprised. Tourism to muslim Meditteranean countries real plummeted since 9/11, even Turkey took a major blow! And with memories of the Bali bombing still on the eye people are really reluctant to consider a stay in a muslim country, evenso in an enclosed environment. As HB wrote (comparing the DR) you don't want to take the same chances while being on an upcountry trip in Egypt or Jordan or the likes...