Is there a middle class in DR??

bobnoxious

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Jan 2, 2002
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According to the recent news threads and the banter on this board, I would guess that it non-exsisant. But it is the back upon which forward moving societies are reliant. How does a debt enrtrenched country expect to endure without such?

All I read about is rich versus poor. Is there anything in-between?????
 

Pib

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Yes, there is. I am a good example I believe. Although I am not rich by any stretch of the imagination I can't say that I am poor either in light of the abject poverty a great deal of Dominicans live in. I usually say that what makes people middle class is the ability to get a mortgage, that usually means that

a) The person is decently and formally employed.
b) The person has a credit history
c) The person has enough money for a downpayment.

The middle class was strengthened during the past administration, this one is doing anything in their hands to destroy it. And as I said before, if the middle class dissapears there goes the hope of this country.
 

mariposa33

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Aug 22, 2002
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I would agree with PIB. The middle class grew during the 90's, but if things keep going as they are now it will digress to where it was before.
I would say there is still a lot larger 'poor' population than middle class though. Depending on what you call poor and middle class. Some of what by a visitor would call poor, are in fact middle class in the DR.
 

Chirimoya

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Dec 9, 2002
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The middle class here can be divided into two main parts: the impoverished middle class which consists of people with university qualifications, professional skills but have a low paying job e.g. a bank clerk on a salary of RD$10,000 and so do not earn nearly enough money to fulfil the material aspirations that go with belonging to the middle class. They might live in a reasonable area and even drive a car, but all at the cost of a heavy debt burden. Interest rates here on loans are enormous. Many people - women especially - supplement their day jobs with other enterprising ventures like selling cosmetics or clothes to their friends. We have already mentioned the pittance that teachers - a middle-class profession by any definition - in the state sector here earn.

Then the upper middle class tend to be in business or have higher paid jobs in the private sector. They live a much more comfortable middle-class lifestyle. It has to be stressed that although visible, the middle and upper classes here are the minority. About 70% of the people here live in poverty.

Chiri
 
Apr 26, 2002
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That Dominicans have been so successful joining the middle/merchant class in the US shows how government policies have aggresively and successfully kept the development of a middle class down in the DR.
 

Tony C

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Porfio_Rubirosa said:
That Dominicans have been so successful joining the middle/merchant class in the US shows how government policies have aggresively and successfully kept the development of a middle class down in the DR.

They have? Where? The 2 largest areas in the US of Dominican Immigrants can be found in NYC and Miami.
Washington Heights, in NYC, can hardly be considered Middle Class.
Allahpatta, in Miami, Is considered one of the worst Ghettos.

I do agree that current DR Gov. policy has destroyed the Middle class
 
Apr 26, 2002
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Tony,

I can't speak for Miami. Washington Heights isn't so bad and, besides, the new Dominican frontiers are places like Allentown, Danbury, Rochester, etc. In New Jersey, Connecticut and Pennsylvania, virtually every bodega is owned by Dominicans. They have supplanted Koreans in this trade - the Koreans having moved up the ladder as their children became university educated.

In New York, the words "building superintendant" and "Dominican" have become synonymous.

Didn't first generation Irish, Italians, etc., also live in bad neighborhoods?
 

mondongo

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using very round numbers:

1.
USA GDP = US$ 10 trillion
USA Population = 300million
amount of GDP going to workers = 7 trillion
USA average pay per person = US$23,000

2.
DR GDP: DR$360billion = US$16 billion
DR population = 8 million
amount of GDP going to workers = US$11 billion
DR average pay per person = US$1400

3.
Income distribution: the DR upper class receives a larger percentage of the income.

http://wbln0018.worldbank.org/psd/compete.nsf/66ce914fdee59ef585256490006019d1?OpenView&Start=59

http://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/fields/2172.html

4. Middle class: those who pay the taxes that fund the lower class. This group will also spend most of its income, but have some left over for savings and investment.

5. In the USA, a middle class family will earn , say US$60,000/yr.
6. The equivalent family in the DR will earn US$3,600/yr or about DR$7,000 per month.
7. My guess is that if you earn DR$7,000 per month, you do not have money left over for saving or invesment. This seems barely enough to pay the bills. Therefore, there is NO EFFECTUAL MIDDLE CLASS in the DR.
 
Apr 26, 2002
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Mondongo,

There is no disputing your math. Perhaps the DR can be broken down into four classes:

1. Wealthy
2. Fully functional poor (Similar to a middle class, but lacking income and savings. Often owns land)
3. Somewhat functional poor (usually can find food to put on the table by working, borrowing, kissing ass of PRD bagman, etc.)
4. Non-functioning poor. Hunger. Disease. Lower life expectancy. Dirt.

I also suspect that there is something of a true middle class in La Capital, though the raw numbers don't indicate it. Remember that foreign remittences come into play.
 
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Chirimoya

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I remember that the figure being bandied around by economists for the minimum amount of money needed for a household in the DR to fulfil their most basic needs, was around RD$8,000 a month. Consider that most people earn much less than that...

Porfio and mondongo, you are more economically literate than I am, but I define middle class according to education and profession as well as just income. In most developed countries these usually complement each other: a teacher is a middle-class professional who although not terrifically well-paid will have the means to acquire what we consider a middle-class lifestyle: mortgage, car, annual foreign holiday etc. In countries like the DR there is an imbalance. Your professional qualification gives you the entry into the middle-class lifestyle but not necessarily the means to acquire it. Hence what I termed the 'impoverished middle class'.

Chiri
 
Apr 26, 2002
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Chirimoya said:
Porfio and mondongo, you are more economically literate than I am, but I define middle class according to education and profession as well as just income. Chiri

Chiri,

From my perspective, don't sell yourself short. You sound quite well reasoned. I think "impoverished middle class" and "fully functioning poor" are about the same thing. One difference may be that I included the land-owning poor in my definition.

I think we all agree that this is the class that needs to grow for the DR (or any other place) to be a successful country and that His Baldness and almost all of the the politicos before him have had no interest in promoting this class. For the politicos, it's much easier to pluck the low hanging fruit.
 

Cleef

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Feb 24, 2002
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My question is: Does the government know what it's doing? Are they that tactically adept to cull out a segment that would threaten them the most?

I think I've answered my own question, thanks.

Great thread.
 

Larry

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Mar 22, 2002
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Porfio and mondongo, you are more economically literate than I am, but I define middle class according to education and profession as well as just income.--Chirimoya

These 3 things are interrelated.Income is the variable you have to look at.
In describing a middle class Pibs definition was OK and mondongos was correct.
Larry
 

bob saunders

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Jan 1, 2002
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It has been my experience that in Jarabacoa there is a small but functional middle class: building contractors that have done well, several appliance store owners, clothing store owners, small business owners that make approximately 20,000 pesos or more after expenses. My wife is one of these people, she was raised poor but with the help of a good education, hard work and determination was able to start her own school(everyone told her she would fail except her mother). She now owns her own school, employes 30 people, has several houses and has a respectable income by North American standards. There are many people in the DR like this.
Many Dominicans are like Americans, Canadians...etc. They like to keep up with the Jones and put themselves into debt or waste their money trying to impress their neighbours. This is especially true for Dominican Yorks.
 
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Pib

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[B]mondongo[/B] said:
...there is NO EFFECTUAL MIDDLE CLASS in the DR.
Can someone smarter than me explain what that means (not the words, the concept).

mondongo how should we call the class I belong to? I don't mind the "impoverished", that's what I think I've become as of lately, but as I said my standard of living is higher than the average Dominican, if only because I can STILL afford the telephone bill.

My point is that there IS a middle class here, some poorer than others but these people can afford housing, food, service, transportation and even some small luxuries (travel, cultural events etc.). Something many Dominicans can only dream about.
 

Chirimoya

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In response to my point 'I define middle class according to education and profession as well as just income' Larry wrote: 'These 3 things are interrelated.Income is the variable you have to look at'.

This may seem pedantic but I still insist that class should be defined according to cultural as well as economic terms. Otherwise we would have to categorise 'nouveau riche' as 'upper class'. Heavens forbid!

Chiri
 

Larry

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Mar 22, 2002
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Chirimoya said:
In response to my point 'I define middle class according to education and profession as well as just income' Larry wrote: 'These 3 things are interrelated.Income is the variable you have to look at'.

This may seem pedantic but I still insist that class should be defined according to cultural as well as economic terms. Otherwise we would have to categorise 'nouveau riche' as 'upper class'. Heavens forbid!

Chiri

Chiri,
Money defines what class you fall into_Other thnigs fall into place accordingly.Meaning the values one develops and the general way people lead their lives.
Larry
 
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Larry

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Mar 22, 2002
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I'll explain

Expanding on what I just posted,people are born into a certain economic class and generally people of that class share similar values and take paths in life that are available to them as dictated by their financial means.If they can economically break through the walls contructed seperating the classes they will find themselves landing in a different class.You cannot say that a poor person that is "very cultured" falls into the upper class.It all depends on money.
Larry
 

Larry

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Mar 22, 2002
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Pib,
I read Mondongos post and I read yours.I dont want to interpret what Mondongo meant by saying the was "no effectual middle class" in the DR but I will say:
In the US,the middle class is heavily taxed to support the poor.A middle class family owns a home...maybe 2 if they are lucky.After the heavy taxes they have some money left over for small luxuries like maybe a new car or a vacation.After those luxuries are purchased,they is no supurfluous money.This cycle supports the lower class through tax and prevents the middle class from moving any higher.It also keeps the majority of the population in the middle class category.What percentage of the DR falls into this category?
Mondongo,please correct me if I am wrong.
Larry
 

Pib

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[B]Larry (ILoveDR)[/B] said:
Pib,
In the US,the middle class is heavily taxed to support the poor.A middle class family owns a home...maybe 2 if they are lucky. After the heavy taxes they have some money left over for small luxuries like maybe a new car or a vacation.After those luxuries are purchased,they is no supurfluous money.
Then there is a middle class in the DR albeit not a large one (compared to those who fall below the poverty line). We also are heavily taxed, both in the form of income tax as well as sales taxes. Who ever then pays the taxes the government charges for "luxurious items" such as air conditioners, beverages, entertainment, air tickets and more recently added all household items, vehicles, clothing, and even health insurance? The guy living in Guachupita? I don't think so. We do.

I know my complaints (there's no way I could have worded the above without making it sound as such) sounds pretty lame in light of the misery of so many of my fellow Dominicans, but the failure of our class will only bring more misery to those that can barely bear any more.