The 1%

MaineGirl

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Jun 23, 2002
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We've all heard Robert and AZb talk about the class of Dominican the majority of the board never gets to see. (Correct me if I'm wrong--I'm sure you will.)

We've heard about the bachata wars and the whores, both men AND women.

Visa-crazy newlyweds, political scum, and mangu lovers. Also, in-love couples, and mangu lovers (I mean, it does taste good.)

So, Who's Who?

I've heard a lot of "I'm this, that, or the other..." from the outsiders...

Talk to me about Dominicans of "high class" or "education" or whatever you care to call it. "Good spanish" might be a starting point. Give me a concrete example...

I am trying to teach my students that there's more to the Spanish-speaking world than the migrant Central American and Texicans that they encounter in our small corner of the world (Maine).

I want to say, "These are people who make a living and live well, because..."

Any takers? Be nice.
 

Tony C

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Jan 1, 2002
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Maine girl

I am not sure exactly what you want but I will give it a try.

The main entrance into the Elite class is by Birth. you are born into it. It is breeding plain and simple.
You can be extremely sucessful financialy. Be educated and have all the class in the world this is not enough. If you are not born into then your best hope is to be all of the above and hope that your Offspring will be admitted.
This apllies to just about every country and culture.
To be a member of Domincan elite society your ancestry must be SPANISH. Some Italians have made it but it is the exception to the rule. Some might have "un besito de Sol". In other words maybe no more than 1/8 african blood. Yes they are racist.
Now some people from other countries of origin have been accepted in their social circles but they are not truly a part of it. These people are mainly from western european countries, The US and Lebanon. Nobody from East of the Jordan river, west of the Missippissi or south of the Mediterrainian will ever be a part.
Of Course it is only those of the Elite of the acceptable Countries that will be alowed in.
Rarely do any of the Elite involve themselves in politics as a cannidate. they rather just own them. None will openly admit any alegence to the PRD. Many will own PRD politicians but none will ever associate with them in public.
Education is only in the best schools. College is usually abroad in the US, Spain, France or the UK.
Religion? Catholic. Nobody else need apply. You address the papal Nuncio by his first name.
They Live mostly in Santo Domingo. Some are from Santiago and may even retain residences there but the Majority are in Santo Domingo.
The young might go to the north coast on a surf outing or what-not but the Dominican Elite would not be caught dead Vacationing in Sosua/Puerto Plata. If any do go there it is just business.
They will have a house on the South Coast or a Villa in Casa de Campo. Some of the less afluent will vist Bavaro on occaision.
Now I come to the main point. The Elite are not always the richest people in the DR. They have money sure but just because you have money does not in any way garner you entrance into this club. Old Money does. Sammy Sosa, Pedro martinez will never be a part of the Elite in the DR.
 

pasha

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Sep 4, 2003
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Post Tony's Summary......
where it'll be read by everyone who visits DR1...including the old hands. I can't speak directly to the DR, but in virtually every other country I know of outside North America, the elite/caste system he describes is dead on. France and England spring immediately to mind....along with Yemen, Dubai, Tunisia, Senegal, et al [too many to list out here but you get the idea].

A "de la" in front of the family name in France or a "von" in Germany, immediately confers a level of respect and understanding that has nothing to do with personal wealth. The grandson of the Comte de Paris might be a middle class manager in Monoprix, but everyone who comes in contact with him practically swoons. Parvenues no matter how much lucre they have need not apply to that level of elitism. Your family best be in the Almanac de Gotha if you want to run in those circles. And, the DR seems to be no exception to the upper crust rules Tony talks about.

That's one reason I like the States......at least our caste system is dollar based. Otherwise, would someone like Bill Gates ever see the White House except as a day-tripping tourist?

Best, P
 

Paul Thate

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Jan 11, 2002
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you are very wrong about the States.
They have their elites just the same and not dollar based.
their MD's and I don't mean doctors.
their Daughters of the revolution.etc etc
then you have the Boston clique.Where they say the Lovell's
only speak to God.
To give you an idea about them.
They had a huge dilemma when Kennedy became president.
Because even with all their money they did not belong.
But as president they had to talk to the men occasionally.
No, the Elite system is alive and well in the States.
 

bochinche

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Jun 19, 2003
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i mostly agree with tony c.

to have class in dominican republic, you have to have a peculiar mixture of money, education and family history. to have one or two of the three is not enough. even if you have all three it is still not definite that you would be considered one of the 'elite'.

the difference, at least in europe, is that it is possible to be high class, but not have any money.
it is also possible (but more difficult) to be considered high class without such a good education - the windsor family are well known for buying their way into colleges and universities which usually base entrance on merit.

if someone tries to discredit one's class in the d.r., it is usually based on one of the above three qualities.

two points with pasha's post.
if your name starts with 'de la' in the d.r., you are almost doomed to be classified, at best, middle class.
as paul thate says, the elite system is alive and well in the u.s. (although it has its differences with europe) - just as it is alive and well in africa, asia, etc. - i don't believe it is solely dollar based and i have difficulty believing that people really consider bill gates as 'high class'. one of the richest men in the world, intelligent - but high class? i don't believe he would think that either.
anyone truly high class in the states wouldn't make an issue of visiting the white house - it is just another political base.
 

pasha

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"Don't want to hijack.....
or deflect the thrust of this thread, so will keep it very short.

Exceptions to the rule. Sure, there are a small number of elites/groups in the States [we might even be tempted to point out Mensans and West Pointers, but they're pseudo elites] , but relatively speaking American [and dare I say Canadian] society really doesn't give a large hoot about one's familial pedigree.

I'm not at all convinced that the DAR has the kind of power and influence that DR elites wield; or that the DAR is as closed to normal society [from which it is drawn anyhow] as I suspect is DR's upper crust. But not to drift too far off the thread point I'll refrain from further commentary. Promise.

Best, P
 

mobrouser

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Jan 1, 2002
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mg, if you can find any messages in the '99/2000 archives posted by natasha you will get a glimpse at the Dominican lifestyle you are asking about. one post in particular that i remember described her growing up, dating, etc. now, compare that to the stories we have read about the "Santiago scene" and then you will truly appreciate what is Dominican upper class behaviour.

i tried looking this morning, but there were too many posts for me to sift through. the information is there if you have the time to look.

mob :classic:
 

MaineGirl

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Jun 23, 2002
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Thanks and thanks. "Elite class" seems to be the term that floats to the top. I still have wonderings.

In a thread from a few days ago I asked, "What do you give a Dominican that has everything?" The people in question have done very well for themselves in my estimation. They came from humble beginnings, so no history to speak of. One's father was a farmer in Puerto Plata and the other the daughter of a divorcee who bounced between homes and was basically fatherless. Education--yes, they have that. Various master's degrees and education is the main thing for their family. As for the last requirement, money, they are classy enough to not reveal all their assets in a boastful way. Granted, they are not to the manor born but by American standards they have pulled themselves up by their bootstraps.

Maybe another way to phrase my question would be:

Define the "Dominican Dream" and compare it to the American Dream.
 

Tony C

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Jan 1, 2002
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MaineGirl said:

Define the "Dominican Dream" and compare it to the American Dream.

That's easy.

American Dream: White picket fence, Good Job, House, Family, kids....ect. AT elast it is what they tell you.
In actuality it is to be rich, Famous, Have lots of expensive toys

Domincan Dream(Typical Dominican that is): Be rich, Famous, have lots of expensive toys. But in the US.
 

Tony C

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Jan 1, 2002
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ERICKXSON said:
The American Dream? do not exist, IS JUST A DREAM

The American Dream is alive and well. I know. I am living it!

The only people who say that it doesn't exist are the ones who are not living it. Usually due to nobody's fault but their own.

Ditto the Dominican Dream.

ERICKXSON,
If you don't believe in the American Dream then what are you doing here? There must be some reason why you are staying and not moving back to the DR. Is it because of Job Oppourtunity? You have a home here in the US? Better lifestyle?
 

pasha

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Sep 4, 2003
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ERICKXSON said:
The American Dream? do not exist, IS JUST A DREAM
Whoa Buckaroo..... Beg to differ and so would about 10 gazillion other people around the world who line up for even a visit visa outside American Embassies under broiling sun, tropical downpours, ice storms [you get the idea]. Not to mention the ones wallowing in proverty who would give an arm [literally] for a shot at making a decent living and better life for themselves and kids. Nor those who may even have the "good" life back home, but best watch their pie hole lest some government thug shoves a baton in it...or worse.

Where do you live by the way? Anywhere your own pie hole might be fitted out with a trunchon?

Best, P
 

Tony C

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Jan 1, 2002
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How can a Dominican immigrate to the US, live there sucessully enough to have a PC and have time to surf the internet and then claim that there is no American Dream?
Some people just don't get it!!!
 

Criss Colon

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Jan 2, 2002
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The "American Dream" is very much "Alive & Well"!

"Problem" that many immigrants have with the "American Dream" is that no one ever told them that you had to "WORK" for it!!!!

Funny how you never meet a "Korean" in the "Welfare Line"! Guess they are to busy working 18 hour days at their Grocery Store,and Greeks and Italians busting their ass's to save money for a house of their own!Seems like lots of people DO realize that to live a "Dream",you must first work hard enough to get tired and "deserve" your sleep,"Perchance To Dream"!

Please no "anecdotes" about a "Dominican" who "Made It"!I already heard about "Him"!

CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC:cool:
 

bochinche

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Jun 19, 2003
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not a monkey's bollock for the 'american dream' - give me the dominican dream anytime

Criss Colon said:
[B....Guess they are to busy working 18 hour days at their Grocery Store,and Greeks and Italians busting their ass's to save money for a house of their own!...... [/B]

is that a dream?.....sounds like a nightmare.

the whole idea that there are 10 'gazillion' people lining up to get into the u.s., to be part of the 'american dream' is simply not true. americans believe it because they are told to believe it.
there is a big gulf between the way americans perceive thmselves and the way they are perceived by the rest of the world. this conceited, unkowledgeable attitude is one of the biggest reasons why the u.s. is despised so much.

the idea of an american dream is drilled into them (americans) from birth, it is spread by word of mouth, media, other forms of propaganda and is used to convince poorly educated people to come, get rich, eat hamburgers, etc. never do they think to question if the idea is actually true.

in the d.r. there are great quantities of people lining up to get a u.s. visa, that is true, but consider the level of education of the majority of these people. what chance do they have of being part of the american dream? not zero - but close to it.

the spanish are giving out visas to girls who qualify as house-maids, nannies, etc. this is a blatant exploitation of the dominican workforce. the u.s. is doing exactly the same thing, but the spanish are somehow more honest about it.


extreme poverty exists in the u.s. - are you suggesting these people are not living the american dream, because no one ever told them they had to work.

every jerry springer guest would tell you that the u.s is the best country in the world, but they are unable to name any other country in the world. - are these people living the american dream, they probably think they are, everyone else can see they are not. even other americans will mock them, but because they believe themselves that they are living the american dream, the notion that there is one in the first place will continue to exist.

tony c claims he is living the american dream.
by his own definition, he may be rich, have lots of expensive toys, but unless he is tony curtis, i doubt if he is famous.

no, i prefer to live the dominican dream - and this is not the one defined by tony c, nor the one any government tells you is 'the' dream. my dominican dream is to be happy, remain happy and enjoy it (whatever 'it' may be) while it's here.
 

pasha

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Sep 4, 2003
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Re: not a monkey's bollock for the 'american dream' - give me the dominican dream anytime

bochinche said:
is that a dream?.....sounds like a nightmare.

the whole idea that there are 10 'gazillion' people lining up to get into the u.s., to be part of the 'american dream' is simply not true....my dominican dream is to be happy, remain happy and enjoy it (whatever 'it' may be) while it's here.
Sorry friend.... but you should have put a lot more thought into your post and used the "preview" button to read what you wrote.

Many of us didn't fall off the turnip truck yesterday and have been a little further afield than vacations to the DR. My bona fides for talking about visa seekers - and I mean ALL categories - comes from having seen with my own baby blues the lines that form up before dawn every day in places like: the DR Congo, Gabon, Ivory Coast [where I lived about 100 meters from the Embassy], Senegal, Central Africa Republic, Ghana, Mali, Mauretania, Guinea, Rwanda, Tunisia, Morocco, Egypt, Kenya, Qatar, The Kingdom, United Arab Emirates, etc, etc.

And before you respond with another fuzzy, inaccurate submission, the people standing in those lines were not shoe shine boys, fruit vendors, maids, prostitues, baseball players, etc. Nope, they were people who were well off or reasonably so and were "living the dream" in the context of their own countries....and I suspect that if/when I have the pleasure of coming to the DR, I'll see the same scene. [That is, middle-to-upper class people and not the poor, ill educated, desperate kind you mention .] And they won't just be lining up for American visas, but German, French, Spanish, Canadian, etc. Now, why do you reckon that would be?

As a note aside you imply that the US Embassy is trucking in visas for "maids"....if that's true, make an appointment with the Consul General or better yet the Ambassador and report the illegal activity. Can't speak to the "honest" Spanish process, but given the nutty tone of your post that's not very credible either.

Don't know where you've travelled to, but hope it's further afield than Miami, Atlanta, Detroit and New York; and even then, that you made it past the ghettos [yes, there are upper class ghettos too] and discos. Or have you in fact ever left the DR?

I have the impression that the word "work" is what bothered you most in Tony's post. Do you do some of that?

Be Happy and Enjoy "It", P
 

caicos

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May 22, 2003
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American Dream vs Dominican Dream

Hi,

New poster here, so if I step on anyone's toes - sorry in advance. The American Dream is just that - a dream. It does not mean that one gets a house with a white picket fence, a car and enought to eat. It does mean that there is a chance to improve one's position in life if one works (AKA teaches a work ethic missed by many young Americans today and many new immigrants) for it; unlike many places in the world where no matter how hard one tries, one can never improve one's position in life.
 

Tony C

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Re: not a monkey's bollock for the 'american dream' - give me the dominican dream anytime

bochinche said:

the idea of an american dream is drilled into them (americans) from birth, it is spread by word of mouth, media, other forms of propaganda and is used to convince poorly educated people to come, get rich, eat hamburgers, etc. never do they think to question if the idea is actually true..

Come to Miami. I can show you 1000's who prove that it is possible.

bochinche said:
in the d.r. there are great quantities of people lining up to get a u.s. visa, that is true, but consider the level of education of the majority of these people. what chance do they have of being part of the american dream? not zero - but close to it..

Every single one of them has the chance. Whether they succeed or not is totally up to them.

bochinche said:
extreme poverty exists in the u.s. - are you suggesting these people are not living the american dream, because no one ever told them they had to work.

They were told. They never paid attention.



bochinche said:
tony c claims he is living the american dream.
by his own definition, he may be rich, have lots of expensive toys, but unless he is tony curtis, i doubt if he is famous.

Semi-Famous....But I am personally not into the fame bit.

bochinche said:
no, i prefer to live the dominican dream - and this is not the one defined by tony c, nor the one any government tells you is 'the' dream. my dominican dream is to be happy, remain happy and enjoy it (whatever 'it' may be) while it's here.

I see many Dominicans working hard. Buliding their businesses and succeeding in life. maybe it is not for you but it is good for them. I am happy and so are they. For some reason I don't think you are living in a shack on a hillside outside of Bonao.
So be happy. I hope you stay happy. Just remember that happiness for many people is what I say not what you say. The American Dream is there. If you don't want it thats no problem.
 

Jon S.

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Jan 25, 2003
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Re: American Dream vs Dominican Dream

caicos said:
Hi,

New poster here, so if I step on anyone's toes - sorry in advance. The American Dream is just that - a dream. It does not mean that one gets a house with a white picket fence, a car and enought to eat. It does mean that there is a chance to improve one's position in life if one works (AKA teaches a work ethic missed by many young Americans today and many new immigrants) for it; unlike many places in the world where no matter how hard one tries, one can never improve one's position in life.

Took the words right outta my mouth........welcome to DR1, by the way.

It's all about hard, intelligent work, not just leaving your country and waiting for things to land on your lap. Screw that shit, I like to work and see the fruits of my labor, it makes me feel good about myself. My father taught me at an early age that to succeed in life you have to work hard, not just wait for everything to come to you. And oh yeah, education has something to do with the equation too. The point is regardless of where you're from, work towards your goals consistently and don't quit either. It bothers me to see people my age just slacking all the time, with so many opportunities out there. I understand things are hard now, not everyone's giving a chance, but you can still get things done. For example, because of me being accepted to the Air Force, 9 other people got rejected but success can be achieved. The problem I'm seeing with a large part of society, and alotta people are guilty of this, is instant gratification. Everyone wants a fast buck now, they want to have everything right now, at this very moment. The internet is a great help, specially with what I do but it's also a culprit. Wait until Internet 2 comes out of development and testing........I'm guilty of doing alotta things wrong, but I won't ever let those flaws stop me from achieving my goals.

Anyways, there's no need to go to an extreme when you come on a message board like this one and want people to pay attention to what you want to say. It'll only guarantee 2 things: mocking by a bunch of good, and (at times) reasonable people ;) , and getting banned from the board while you miss out on a great learning experience. Take advantage of being here and have patience, this isn't a regular run-of-the-mill message board, it's a step above most message boards out there and it's about one of the greatest, although craziest places on earth. There, I spoke my piece................ahhhhhh what a relief.

It's time to get off my soapbox:cheeky: