Fuel Cell Energy To Power Homes

ERICKXSON

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Dec 24, 2002
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Intro to my report.

great news for everyone in the world i love it!

GM AND HONDA ARE CURRENTLY WORKING ON A HYDROGEN GENERATOR THAT WILL POWER HOMES, making it affordable to everyone before the end of the decade, i'll add more later when i get home.
 
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Lurch

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Aug 8, 2003
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its not quite the solution

Somewhat old news as GM created the "skateboard" concept for its cars a couple years ago. Toyota has been trying to play catch up and most estimates place thier R&D spending above that of GM's (1 billion usd) currently.

Unfortunately, the best method for getting the hydrogen is from natural gas. Its not like you could just pour some water into a tank anytime soon and have energy (about 40 years from now, yes you will be able to do that).

The best point of the fuel cell is it would crush OPEC and eliminate the arabs cash cow since most of the natural gas in the world is not in the middle east...it is in Russia.

Also its bad news for the auto workers of the world (you're quite left leaning from your postings) as the skateboard eliminates most of the moving parts in a car and streamlines the manufacturing process thus slashing the need for workers dramatically.
 

Lurch

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hahaha

Geez,

I actually do not know where to begin. Should we start with the scientific reasons why that wont happen (fission/fussion problems). If you just want to pour water into something and derive hydrogen to create energy you are either going to split or fuse (very basic physics....H20).

Economic reasons (now that list is simply too long to type..haha)

Political reasons (ditto)

Check the science behind whatever paper you are reading or do a search for gm's fuel cell project center (believe it was in Michigan and is connected with GE as well)

Sorry to burst your bubble.....
 

ERICKXSON

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I just attend a convention in Miami about fuel cell technology very interesting people with unique points of view and a great welth of information, by the end of this decade we should have generators outside our homes, despite your scientific points these scientists know more than you and are currently working in the evolution of this technology nevertheless my hopes are up waiting for an optimistic outcome on this technology.
 

Tony C

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Jan 1, 2002
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I am a big believer in technology and in particular fuel cell technology but I cannot see how we will all have a generator outside are home at the end of the decade.
6 years is not enough time to get this done. Fuel Cel tech is not ready. Once it is you have to set up manufacturing, distribution, marketing..ect.
Will it be cheap enough? What will the cost be to purchase one to provide the power we have come to rely on? Fossil Fuels are cheap and abundant. The electricity infrastructure is reliable(In the US).
What about maintanence? Right now all I have to do is send in a check every month? Am I going to have to work on this fuel cell? What about filtration? Unless I use distilled water I can see there will be a need for filtration. What about reliability?
What about zonning? Just try to get permission to put a generator outside my home in Pinecrest.
Most Fuel Cell developement is being directed to the Automotive industry. You are looking at least 10 years before one is ready for the mass market. That is one that will provide the Power, Mileage and reliability the the majority of consumers demand.
 

ERICKXSON

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i was going to write a long report but i see te way the thread is going i rather refrain from investing precious time into this, thank you very much.


Hey Tony the reason you do not understand is because you are not completely involve perhaps you attend one of those meetings you will gather more information, reliability? well the US government is trying to get away from oil at all cost due to the ongoing situation in the middle east and the latest in Venezuela.

Best Regards
Erickxsoooooon
 

pasha

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Sep 4, 2003
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ERICKXSON said:
.......the US government is trying to get away from oil at all cost
You're exactly right. There's been intense effort made to develop alternative energy sources, not least of all by the military [the smaller or more compact the technology the better]. Back at the Pentagon in late '80s even, we had sizeable R&D projects [including one for the humble battery], which can only have grown since then. Has anyone pulsed DARPA to see what they're up to?

The way it looks, it's only a question of time for fuel cells and it would be pretty foolish to bet against the technology.

Best, P
 

mondongo

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Jan 1, 2002
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ERICKSON, Please post your conference findings. All of us are eager to learn more. All of us want Fuel Cells to succeed. Don't be dissuaded by some of us who are skeptic (pragmatic). The key question is still: how do you get the hydrogen? The source of hydrogen today is still fossil fuels. Did any of the conference presenters outline a method of cleanly, cheaply turning water into hydrogen?

Since this is an interesting subject to me, I will take some time to research that last question.
 

Chris

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Oct 21, 2002
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The Grapevine..

Well, I heard it from the Grapevine...

Reports in the high up echelons of the US administration believes that the world's oil reserves are getting dangerously low. I've always heard all my life that oil is gonna run out sometime. Never believed it - same category as other stories from Granma! But, I hear companies involved in energy production, are quietly buying up every patent on alternative energy that there ever was registered. So, it is certainly an area of development to watch closely in the next few years...

I like the 'water into wine' story. If we can add water to a device and produce energy for my computers, wow. But somehow it also sounds like another story from Granma! Tell us what you find out Ericxson
 

Lurch

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Aug 8, 2003
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shrug...still waiting

I look forward to being proven wrong, unfortunately just the physics are going to prevent it.
 

Tony C

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Yes I am a Skeptic and I am pragmatic. I belive Fuel Cells do have a future.

But anybody who thinks that we will all be running our houses on Fuel Cells by the end of the Decade(A little over 6 years) does not have a grasp of reality.

In 6 to 8 years you might see a fuel cell car that is practical and marketable(i.e. Profitable).
For a large segment of private Homes powered by fuel cells we are talking at least 15-20 years away.
3 things have to happen.

1. the cost of electricity would have to go up almost 3 fold. I pay about $300 a month during the summer. Don't even bother me with Fuel cells till it hits $700-$900 a month.

2 The fuel cell unit would have to cost less that $5000 in todays US dollars. Any more than that and forget it for most people.

3. It has to be virtualy maintenance free. I mean I must almost forget it exists. Don't ask the average person to clean it every week or manage their energy consumption. For most people they want to turn on the AC when it is hot. They don't want to have to go over their finances to do so.

Today both Honda and Toyota are selling Hybrid-Cars. Both are technology Demonstrators. Niether one is making either company a profit. they are selling them to try to get a jump on the market.

Erixkson got mad because somebody had the audacity to disagree with them. A case of him taking his ball and going home!
 

Jon S.

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Jan 25, 2003
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Tony C said:

Today both Honda and Toyota are selling Hybrid-Cars. Both are technology Demonstrators. Niether one is making either company a profit. they are selling them to try to get a jump on the market.

Very true. If it were to be introduced to the commercial marketplace, it would be at least 15 years from now. Otherwise, we (the military) would've been playing with those toys years ago hehehe
 

mondongo

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Jan 1, 2002
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Lurch.....excellent point. You cannot split water into hydrogen and oxygen without a fission reaction (atomic energy). There are ways to get hydrogen from water now, but you have to use more energy during the conversion than you get from the released hydrogen. Conservation of energy (matter)......

The day you pour water into your car and get free energy (lets not talk about the waste) is the day we all have portable nuclear power plants.
 

Kelsey

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Sep 27, 2003
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Unless I'm the ignorant one here, fission involves the splitting of an atom's nucleus. Water is a molecule, not a single atom, therefore separating the hydrogen from the oxygen would not be fission.

Actually people have been playing with fuel cells for a while now:
Fuel Cell History
Fuel cells were invented in 1839 by Sir William Grove, and were first used in practical applications in the 1960s to provide electricity on spacecraft in the Gemini and Apollo space programs.

During the 1970s, fuel cell technology was developed for systems on earth. And during the 1980s, it began to be tested by utilities and automobile manufacturers.
 
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Lurch

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Aug 8, 2003
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You're not ignorant Kelsey

The reasoning behind the fission/fusion comment is it would be the only realistic method to create hydrogen from water OUTSIDE of an existing power grid. The process of electrolysis (if I remember my terminology) is actually the process to seperate the molecules, however this requires an prexisting source of power that would defeat ericxson's purpose of disconnecting your house completely from the grid and only pouring water into your car.

My entire issue with his posting is the time frame he insists upon and the pouring of water into your car/house without the use of an existing hydrogen supply or power supply.
 

Kelsey

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Ok, but it's not fusion. :)
You probably won't be pouring water directly into your car, but it is entirely possible that the energy to produce hydrogen will come from the sun- a great pre-exsisting and free energy source.
 

mondongo

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Jan 1, 2002
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Kelsey,
By definition, spitting water into H2 and O2 is not fusion. By definition, however, it is fission. It is not nuclear fission. As you pointed out, nuclear energy involves splitting atoms, not molucules.

From my non-nuclear physicist point of view, the two important concepts in a nuclear reaction are :1) converting matter to energy according to Einstein's relationship, 2) run-away (positive feeeback) reactions. When Uranium is bombarded with neutrons, the resulting split matter has less mass than the original. The lost mass is given off as energry. That is why a fist-full of Uranium can generate a massive amount of energy.

The energy that was released was the binding energy that held the original atom together. How is all this relevant?

If you are a physicist, then I have a question for you: is the binding energy/mass that is release when splitting an atom an equivalent concept to the binding energy released when you split a molecule? The magnitudes are obviously not the same, otherwise we would be splitting water (instead of Uranium) for nuclear energy.