What's happening with the FAD?

CoolNYer

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Well I think that most of you know that the Dominican Republic doesn't have a strong Armed Force, but currently there are no planes protecting the air over the Dominican Republic!
The A-37 'Dragonflies' that served in the FAD have been out of service since 2000. No other planes have replaced it since then so now there is an air defense problem. What do you all think should be done about this?
 

Tony C

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According to Aeroflight.co.uk This is the Current Status of the FAD
The first number is inventory the 2nd is operational Aircraft.

The DR is covered fine with the Super Tucano COIN aircraft. They really don't need the A-37B's They are old. obsolete costly and problematic.




Cessna A-37B Dragonfly 8 2
Embraer EMB-314 Super Tucano 10 10
CASA 212-400 3 3
Piper PA-31 Navajo 2 1
Cessna U206G 1 1
Cessna 337 (O-2A) 5 1
Bell UH-1H Iroquois 6 6
A?rospatiale SA-313 Alouette II 5 1
A?rospatiale SA-365 Dauphin 2 2 1
A?rospatiale AS-550 Fennec 10 10
Enaer T-35B Pillan 8 7

http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/americas/dominican_rep/DomRep-af-home.htm
 

XanaduRanch

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Dios Mio!

That's the Dominican Airforce? I'm qualified to fly most of those planes! I think the Hooterville Crop Dusting Service had more available airplanes! The U.S. Air Force could knock the whole Dominican continigent out of the sky in 30 minutes with a dozen Predator drones. Or U.S. Space Command could do it in 5 minutes with ... whoops. Can't say that! Never mind!

Well ... at least all Haiti has is a few slingshots, and those air-pressure powered foam kid's toys ... supplied by Jimmy Carter and F's-O-B.

Tom (aka XR)
 
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Timex

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May 9, 2002
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And what about???

That cool black P-51 Mustang, that was on display in the Capital,
I wonder who stole it.... Oops, I meant swaped it with the cessna, A-37????????????

That was such a cool display, now all we have is a Tonka toy in it's place!!!!

Thanks
Tim H.
 

CoolNYer

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Tony C said:
According to Aeroflight.co.uk This is the Current Status of the FAD
The first number is inventory the 2nd is operational Aircraft.

The DR is covered fine with the Super Tucano COIN aircraft. They really don't need the A-37B's They are old. obsolete costly and problematic.




Cessna A-37B Dragonfly 8 2
Embraer EMB-314 Super Tucano 10 10
CASA 212-400 3 3
Piper PA-31 Navajo 2 1
Cessna U206G 1 1
Cessna 337 (O-2A) 5 1
Bell UH-1H Iroquois 6 6
A?rospatiale SA-313 Alouette II 5 1
A?rospatiale SA-365 Dauphin 2 2 1
A?rospatiale AS-550 Fennec 10 10
Enaer T-35B Pillan 8 7

http://www.aeroflight.co.uk/waf/americas/dominican_rep/DomRep-af-home.htm
Actually that order seems to have been canclled or put on hold. Embraer said that the FAD bought the planes, but they actually the FAD didn't sign the contract.

Here's a list of possible planes though:
T-6 Texan II
The Super Tucano still may be a plane
Embraer AMX-T ( A jet fighter produced by Embraer)
F-5(Second-Hand from Spain/Taiwan)
Mig-21(Last version built equip with a radar system similar to the F-16)
 

Texas Bill

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Man, what a joke of an Air Force!!!!!!!!!!

Not a single one of the aircraft are equiped for a "Defence" role!

The A-37 is a rehash of the T-37 Primary/Basic trainer (which may have been replaced by now) and was designed for a "close support" role, proving to be very vulnerable to ground fire. In addition, this airframe was originally designed as "business" thyp aircraft by a French firm from which Cessna bought manufacturing rights. The Citation series aircraft are another foreign purchase by Cessna, originally, I believe a Piaggio/Douglas design that had severe marketing problems and was abandoned by that consortium.

I'm not familiar with the helicopters mentioned, but the other's cited seem to be "transport/administrative" role aircraft.

Maybe the DR could con Uncle Sam out of a squadron of F-5's for an Air Superiority role if they knew the right strings to pull. That aircraft was successful as a multirole fighter/attack aircraft for MDAP countries.

As I have commented in a previous posting, the DR really has no need for a standing military since they have no threat to defend against. Their military would best be employed in a national police force/border patrol role.

Texas Bill
 
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Tony C

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Bill,

The Toucano is an effective COIN, Close air support aircraft for what the DR needs.
All they have is a need for is interdiction mission and maybe some COIN roles in the Future.
What do they need F-5's for?
They can't afford them and who is going to attack them? Haiti? Not bloody likely. Cuba? The Cuban Airforce would wipe them out in mins(That is if they don't defect first). Venezuela? f-16's there.
What do DR does need is more SAR aircraft.
 

pasha

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Loose lips Tom.....

XanaduRanch said:
[B....whoops. Can't say that! Never mind! Tom (aka XR) [/B]
and all that. Actually all other things being equal those Tucanos, if carrying right kind of pod mix, can pretty much outfight anything within its own "envelope".... including some pretty advanced front line jets. USAF and Army declined some years ago to run some real-time tests [Swiss turbo fixed wing against F16 and helicopters]....we were looking at theoretical possibilities for cheap, robust "Mud Fighter" that would be flown by a resurrected "Flying Sergeants" corps. Young kids who had great reflexes, good eyes and sneered at death. Advanced physics degree not needed.

Needless to say the MF never got past a few creative dreamers in the Pentagon....falling away with other great ideas as the proven FOG-M [fiber optics guided missile]. It was too effective against tanks [the armor mafia wore garlic for a couple of years until the danger passed] and MUCH too cheap.

Anyhow, with a sigh and best P
 
Apr 26, 2002
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Why does the DR need more than helicopters, transport and rescue aircraft?

1. The country has never been able to maintain jets. I remember reading about how unpleased Juan Bosch was when he needed to attack Haiti and learned that NONE of the vampire jets were servicable.

2. Historically, aircraft have only been used for domestic repression purposes (notably, Santo Domingo was the last place that P-51s saw combat. Two of them were shot down by small arms fire in '65).

3. Air superiority versus Haiti? Give me a break. As Bosch learned, the two countries could never effectively combat each other because both totally lack the ability to project forces.

4. The country is too poor and backwards to catch up with other potential adversaries like Cuba or the US.

5. The drug intradiction role is essentially performed for the benefit of the US. So the US should either provide it or pay for the planes and training to do it for them. Stopping drugs and/or emigration is actually counterproductive to the DR economy (though, ironically, the "war on drugs" is good for the DR economy).

6. In the case of the DR, the money would be much better spent on butter.

Interesting, though, that there are no Super Tacanos deployed. If that's really the case, than I would agree that the DR essentially has no air force.
 

XanaduRanch

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Re: Loose lips Tom ..... and all that.

Yes, well. When CJCS for the first time ever hails from Peterson and wears AFSPC wings on his uniform it sets your mind off in other directions.

pasha said:
Actually all other things being equal those Tucanos, if carrying right kind of pod mix, can pretty much outfight anything within its own "envelope".... including some pretty advanced front line jets.
Being near the International Airport and Dominican 'Air Base' - and I use the term loosely - we see just about everything that's ever in the air overhead from here, and quite a bit at sea, too. I've seen the military helicopters often, but that's it. Just commercial traffic otherwise. And I'd have noticed military aircraft. Over a few years I've noticed some U.S. military traffic high overhead, though. So I don't think if the Dominicans have anything they ever fly it. Not around here at least.

Maybe the Pentagon could just sell 'em an ACMS or two and let them think they're flying combat. Whoops! No money. OK, maybe a couple of Play Stations? Or a used copy of Flight Simulator '97. Yeah! That's the ticket!

Then again, maybe the DR doesn't need much in the way of an advanced fighter to be effective. You see how Dominican drivers behave down here? Now imagine having to do areal combat with a Dominican pilot!

Some things are just to scary to contemplate!

Tom (aka XR)
 
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pasha

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Sounds like the Free Polish.....

Some things are just to scary to contemplate!
Tom (aka XR)
RAF squadron in WWII....very few of them were wrapped all that tightly.

Hard to imagine why the DR needs an AF anyhow, except maybe for coastal patrol [?]. They oughta hit the US Government up for a couple of dozen free OV10 Broncos. Probably a ton of them in mothballs out at Davis-Monthan AFB, Tuscon.

Better yet, if the government wants to make entreprenurial bucks follow the Russian model and fly tourists around in those Dragonflys....or use the Tucanos in a tame aerial combat ride. Maybe train some of the taxi drivers to be the chauffeurs. FLAMES over Sousa!

Best, P
 

Tony C

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Porfio,

Bosch NEEDED to invade Haiti? Tell us more.

The Vampire was a 1st Generation combat Jet. Was never reliable when it was new let alone 20 years old.

Don't worry about the FAD. Remember that Hippo signed a contract for $700 Million US to build a aircraft factory in the DR. Soon they will be cranking out Antonovs....LOL!
 
Apr 26, 2002
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Tony C said:
Porfio,

Bosch NEEDED to invade Haiti? Tell us more.

The Vampire was a 1st Generation combat Jet. Was never reliable when it was new let alone 20 years old.

Don't worry about the FAD. Remember that Hippo signed a contract for $700 Million US to build a aircraft factory in the DR. Soon they will be cranking out Antonovs....LOL!

Tony,

I didn't write "invade Haiti", I wrote "attack Haiti".

You'll recall when Papa Doc seized the DR embassy in Port au Principe while also working with the Trujillo family who were plotting to re-take control of the DR (reference "Overtaken by Events" by former Ambassador Martin). Bosch, quite legitimately, wanted to attack Haiti in response but found out it was impossible. The DR military, as created by the US in the 1920s and honed by Trujillo, could only be used as a garrison force for domestic control.

So you've decided to defend the professionalism and maintenance standards of the FAD. Odd decision. How many Dragonflies do you think were functional at any given time during the best of times?

I do agree with you on one thing: With Hippo's Ukrainian contracts, the conversion of the DR into a massive aircraft exporter is only a matter of time. ;) ;) ;)
 
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Texas Bill

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Sorry All.

I'm afraid my knowledge of the more modern military aircraft leaves much to be desired.

The point I was trying to make was this; the DR AF doesn't have the expertise to field an effective fighting force as relates to air superiority, nor can they properly maintain such a force should they field it!
They simply don't have the capability!
For the DR, the only use of aircraft would be for transporting men and equipment from place to place and helicopters would suffice in that role. I doubt seriously if pilots and maintenence personnel could be trained for combat use of more sophisticated equipment even if the country could afford such.
As I have stated previously, the military really has no role in this country and would be more effective in a border patrol and/or national police role. That is if they ever decided to get off the checkpoints along the road that are an absolutely ineffective control.

Texas Bill
 

Texas Bill

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Porfi.

This is off-thread, but should the military role be changed to that of Costa Rica, the first act would necessarily be to eliminate the top commands down to and including company level, then start all over again with an academy dedicated to proper police procedures, then install the command levels, properly trained in administration, to assure compliance at all levels.

Even with that scenario, I'm of the opinion that it would be an exercise in futility to assure an effective force which would recognize individual rights, use effective investigstive procedures, et., etc., etc.!!!
In addition it would necessitate combining ALL existing police(?) forces into the overall structures. I think the propencity for power grabbing amoung the remaining personnel would spoil the endeavor.
The existing governing bodies simply don't have the inclination nor the discipline to form such a force and keep the corruption out of the process. ou would still have incompetents running the show.

Texas Bill
 

pasha

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Is Panama Another Good Model?

Porfio_Rubirosa said:
Tex,

I couldn't agree with you more. The DR could take a lesson from Costa Rica in so many ways.
I'm asking in all sincerity, since it seems to have reformed itself enormously since Noreaga's time. How about Belize?

Seems to me that no country down that way, ie Caribbean/ Central America, really needs a defense force. Is there an active rebellion anywhere, other than in Mexico [and I may be behind times on that]?

Cuba? When the Old Fart goes, the place is going to have one big celebration.

Best, P
 

Tony C

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All you have to do to change the DR military to be like Costa Rica is change the name.
Costa Rica has an Army they just don't call it one. The National Police of CR has APCs, Tanks and even Anti-Aircraft artillery.
Panama doesn't have a Army the same way Costa-Rica does. Also the US doesn't want panama to go back to their old ways. Plus we don't want to have to work to hard for when the US wises up and takes back the Cannal.
Belize doesn't need an Army because the UK is their protector. Up until recently they even had a flight of Harriers stationed in Belize on a rotational basis.

"So you've decided to defend the professionalism and maintenance standards of the FAD. Odd decision. How many Dragonflies do you think were functional at any given time during the best of times?"

I am in no way defending the DR's military professionalism. I do know that once Bosch took over the Military fell apart quickly. No surprise there. I was just pointing out that the Vampire was a POS. Why do you think the Brits gave them away so quick. The only people that made them work were the Swiss and that was after they reamufactured them.

I do remember seeing 8 A-37's in the air over the DR at one time. It is a great little scooter. I was lucky enough to get a ride in one back when they were new to the FAD.
 
L

Luis Puesan

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The True about the A-37B

The data of the FAD that are listed in all of your comments are wrong, including the list of aircraft that is posted here.
If you like to know more about the FAD and the rest of the Dominican Armed Forces go to this web site

http://www.fuerzasmildom.com

Also, in regard about the threads to DR from foreign countries, the Fuerzas Militares Dominicanas site you will fine the cuban version of the incident where Cuban FAARC's MIG-21 flew over Puerto Plata and Santiago in 1978.

I think many of your question will be answered there.

Also, the A-37 always had been a problem for the FAD, never all flew together, and only one is still there in storage and she is for sell. Also, the Tucano deal is not go. The Dominican government only opened a "letter of purchase" to EMBRAER but that does not mean that they will buy the aircraft. In addition, Raytheon offered a contract of $50 millions dollars for 10 Raytheon AT-6 Texan II and an executive jets for the President, but this deal also is not go, or the Dominican government is keeping secret their final decision.
 

Tony C

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Luis

I stand Corrected!
Damn Cool Site. Is it yours? I noticed the illustrations were done by you!

The DR military is in worse shape than I thought.