The Haiti Syndrome

ltsnyder

Bronze
Jun 4, 2003
624
0
16
www.x3ci.com
Hate to say it, but with the devaluation of the peso and the partial collapes of the govenment to provide basic services it seems like this is giving rise to street gangs that have more control than the govenment. If this trend continues, might the DR look more and more like Haiti than we ever dared imagine.

Now let me step back, I know a lot might say this is all doom and gloom but many small businesses that could make it a year ago not (definitly) can't make ends meet, I'm talking about every mom and pop salon out there basically can't meet electric and telephone costs. I'm sure other small businesses are in the same boat. The ones that have jobs that are safe, know through family and friends how bad it is. These basic utility costs, and I'm including telephone here, are driving these businesses into >locked-in< poverty, at this rate then are not saving, they are just slowing thier decline. I can mention one other business type that is not soo great, the over abundance of internet cafes, seems like the ones I know in POP are not making alot now.

ONe other change, it seems the second capital (Santiago) that use to always be viewed as the rich insulated town of the country is getting (economically) hit hard, because the only inflow of money now is through tourism and export trade.

I know this is rambling, but take this conversation where you think it should go, what do you see in the future?

-Lee
 

Chirimoya

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2002
17,850
982
113
I think the DR still has a L O O O O O O O N N N N N N N G G G G way to go before it can be compared with Haiti. I am going there for work quite soon so I will let you know whether any comparisons are worth entertaining.

Chiri
 

Jwb

New member
Jan 10, 2002
254
0
0
Moderatorrrrrrrrrr !

The Comparison of Haiti to the DR is old and insiteful. Do a search buddy............
 

ERICKXSON

Bronze
Dec 24, 2002
1,222
0
0
47
www.creambay.com
Street Gangs taking over? Are you sick or just out of your mind.
Please before making another comparison of that magnitude indulge yourself into life in the DR
 
Apr 26, 2002
1,806
10
0
Re: Moderatorrrrrrrrrr !

Jwb said:
The Comparison of Haiti to the DR is old and insiteful.

Maybe you should have said "old and insightful".

Hyperbole aside, you have to ask yourself: Is the DR becoming more like Haiti or less like Haiti? Anyone who says less is lying to themselves. We have a long way to go to be like them, but with the ongoing discrediting of our institutions, the distance is narrowing.
 

Jwb

New member
Jan 10, 2002
254
0
0
Maybe you should have said "old and insightful".

OK. Old and insightful !

The thought still stands. The DR is at least 3 generations ahead of Haiti. To begin a thread comparing the two, is equivalent to yelling out fire in a crowded hall.
 

samiam

Bronze
Mar 5, 2003
592
0
0
Three generations is too close for comfort in my view.
Yes Haiti is fu&%ed but in what ways are we on our way to becoming another Haiti?

We are well on our way to a process of desertification, just like Haiti was 50 years ago. As a consequence, we are loosing fast our water supplies just like Haiti and we are being invaded and absorbed by hatians and their culture by their silent migration. There are more Hatians in the DR than there ever where at any point in our history. and on the economy, dont get me started, atleast Hatians dont have to worry about some lame ass currency, they use the dollar and the gourd is just for decoration, which I think is worth a little more than our peso now.

The worst part is that no one is doing anything about this. Our lame ass politicians just talk a sh#&load of crap (valga la redundancia) and our country is going to the pits. They should just take em all, from Hippo to Leonel, from Lila to Pacheco and everyone in betwee, line'em up in the rio masacre and ........what was it that trujillo did way back then?

Maybe Haitians will be right in the future and we will be wrong.....you know about the island being one and undivisible.
 

ltsnyder

Bronze
Jun 4, 2003
624
0
16
www.x3ci.com
I know I said take this where it might lead, but . . .

I don't want to hear a blame it on the increasing Haition population cliche. Population increases no matter what color, go to portugal and tell me it is a happy healty country due to it's whitness.

-Lee
 

XanaduRanch

*** Sin Bin ***
Sep 15, 2002
2,493
0
0
Re: I know I said take this where it might lead, but . . .

ltsnyder said:
I don't want to hear a blame it on the increasing Haition population cliche. Population increases no matter what color, go to portugal and tell me it is a happy healty country due to it's whitness.
And just who asked whether you wanted to hear it or not? You started the thread!

Whether your liberal sensibilities admit it or not, illegal immigration is at least one factor at play. This happens anywhere in the world where a government offers it's citizens services for free such as medical care to name but one example, in exchange for part of their income, and then people who are not generating income to pay for the services invade. Look no further than California for a prime example.

For this one small part of the overall big picture problem there are exactly three solutions. 1) Deport the illegal aliens, 2) deny free services to illegals or non-citizens, or 3) stop offering free services to anyone. Frankly I prefer option number three. But I can hear you squirming at your keyboard to yell at me now, so feel free.

Just wanted to point out why that is a legitimate cause for concern. Read some of AZB's posts.

Tom (aka XR)

REVEALING POINT: It is interesting to note that only one person posting in this thread felt it necessary to mention skin color in defense of his arguments. Not the ultra-right-wing-kook XR (Actually, I am a Libertarian). Nope. Guess who? The self-appointed liberal, LTSnyder. Everyone else, and rightly so, referred simply to a nationality, not the color of a people's skin. The problem was blamed by all others on illegal aliens, the Haitians. Why is that, Lee? Why did you feel it necessary to mention that? I guess you're more Dominican than you think!
 
Last edited:
Apr 26, 2002
1,806
10
0
Re: Re: I know I said take this where it might lead, but . . .

XanaduRanch said:
Whether your liberal sensibilities admit it or not, illegal immigration is at least one factor at play.

On a scale of one (least important) to ten (most important) in importance in relation to the DECLINE in quality of life in the DR, I would estimate:

PPH-10
General Corruption-8 (see also Dominican Psyche, below)
Dominican Psyche-6
Poor Education-8
Failed Institutions-8 (see PPH and General Corruption, above)
External Factors(e.g. 'War on Drugs', Financeers, IMF)-4
Baninter-4 (see also Failed Institutions)
Population Growth Rate-5 (see Education, above)
World Trade Center-0 (was previously 5)
War in Iraq-0 (was previously 3)
Haitians-1 (see Population Growth Rate, above)

Obviously, there are other factors at play too. But Haitians? Come on!
 
Last edited:

XanaduRanch

*** Sin Bin ***
Sep 15, 2002
2,493
0
0
Porfio, I agree at least for now, that Haitians do not represent a significant problem.

I was pointing out to the knee-jerk crowd simply that the use of medical and other Dominican government services by illegals to which they are not entitled does represent a net cash loss for the government of the Dominican Republic. One of many, unfortunately.

Border security is one of the primary functions of any nation's government exactly for this reason, and especially when there are such disparate incomes from one side of the border to the other. Unfortunately it appears that the Dominican government is remedying the problem not by maintaining the integrity of the border, but by lowering the standard of living in the D.R. to match that of Haiti so that no one fron anywher else in the world would want to enter.

Tom (aka XR)
 

ltsnyder

Bronze
Jun 4, 2003
624
0
16
www.x3ci.com
X I have to tell you, I don't see why your focus seems to be on something . . . .

The change in the economy in the last year, the devaluation of the peso, the bank collapse etc, the reason I'm posting this all have nothing to do with Haiti. Why the focus on Haitians? What do they have to do with the crisis that has developed over the year? I can't see the relation. But these things are leading to a level of poverty we have all seen before, I mean still far away, but getting closer.

-Lee
 

XanaduRanch

*** Sin Bin ***
Sep 15, 2002
2,493
0
0
Re: X I have to tell you, I don't see why your focus seems to be on something . . . .

ltsnyder said:
the reason I'm posting this all have nothing to do with Haiti. Why the focus on Haitians? What do they have to do with the crisis that has developed over the year?
Man, yopu have to work at being that obtuse. It can't just come naturally.

Please re-read my last post. Put something heavy on your knees so they won't jerk up and hit you in the chin inducing you to use the post-reply button until you have thoroughly thought through what I said. Actualy read it man!

If you don't understand it, sorry can't help you. I am not focusing on the Haitians. You jumped on somebody for mentioning that and referred to it as a tired old cliche and then introduced race. I simply pointed out that ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION is one drain on the government's limited resources regardless of skin color or national origin. And any drain on their resources is a contributing factor to the "Haitization" of the Dominican Republic.

P.S.
If you want to stay on subject you might avoid comments about how white Portugal is, as well.
 

DCfred

New member
Jun 19, 2003
344
0
0
The Haitians were always a convenient excuse during turbulent economic times. I'm surprised Mejia has not played the Haitian card yet....
 
Apr 26, 2002
1,806
10
0
Pib said:
Haiti is hyperbole.

Really? Do you think the DR is closer to Costa Rica or Haiti in current per capital GDP and average quality of life? (And please don't cite statistics because I don't think they'll catch up to our current predicament for a while.) We all agree that the DR is regressing, but I would think that five years ago we were closer to Costa Rica (and gaining on them) and now we're back closer to Haiti (or Bolivia, Uganda, Nepal, etc).

I think that I spend more time in the campo than most on this board. I've seen hunger and malnutrition among children recently that I have not seen since the late 1980s. And, as you can tell from my posts, I'm sickened by it.
 

Pib

Goddess
Jan 1, 2002
3,668
20
38
www.dominicancooking.com
But if I drive to Manzanillo I'll be closer to the US.

Porfi, trust me, we're nowhere near Haiti just yet. I didn't say we're better, I admit we're much, much worse. But things will have to get a whole lot worse to get half-way near Haiti.
 

ERICKXSON

Bronze
Dec 24, 2002
1,222
0
0
47
www.creambay.com
Porfi Have you been to the Campos in Costa Rica? kid i can tell you from persona experiences i was living there for a while and is not different from the DR their situation at this moment is worse their money has devaluated almost at the same pace of ours the COLON is around 430 per Dollar or something last year it was around 290 per Dollar don't compare if you haven't been or experience alot of people talk and talk about beign the best blah blah blah i've been there done that one thing CR is less corrupted than the DR however prostitution is as rampant.



Porfio_Rubirosa said:
Really? Do you think the DR is closer to Costa Rica or Haiti in current per capital GDP and average quality of life? (And please don't cite statistics because I don't think they'll catch up to our current predicament for a while.) We all agree that the DR is regressing, but I would think that five years ago we were closer to Costa Rica (and gaining on them) and now we're back closer to Haiti (or Bolivia, Uganda, Nepal, etc).

I think that I spend more time in the campo than most on this board. I've seen hunger and malnutrition among children recently that I have not seen since the late 1980s. And, as you can tell from my posts, I'm sickened by it.
 

Jwb

New member
Jan 10, 2002
254
0
0
Here we go again

Posted by Samian

line'em up in the rio masacre and ........what was it that trujillo did way back then?


Are you happy now itSnyder? I am assuming you were bored and decided to start up this thread to generate some traffic.

What you dont seem to realize, (or maybe you actually do but choose to pretend as if you dont ) is that, the mentiong of Haiti on this board has a strange effect on some people. Even the most reasonable and clearest thinkers fly off the handle. I am not even going to mention the " Nutty" weak minded ones.

Posted by itSnyder

Why the focus on Haitians? What do they have to do with the crisis that has developed over the year? I can't see the relation.

You asked a question, provided yourself an answer, and now you want to pretend as if you are being sucked into this unpredictable debate.


In the Psychological community there is well known term for this behavior you know. If you ask me twice I will tell you what it's called.
 
Last edited: