Waste To Energy

samiam

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It would be very fortunate if we start thinking about alternative sources of energy, no matter how insignificant to the overall consumption they might be, pretty soon we won't be able to pay the fuel bill for all the ineficient power plants we operate here. There is a wind project already taking place, and some power plants in the east are considering a project to heat water with their steam and exhaust gases.
Recycling is non existent in the DR. its about time someone starts doing something. Especially with water, The crude of the future.
 

Keith R

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You can dress this type of waste disposal up as "energy recovery," but it really is just another form of incineration. As I have posted here in the past, I think there are a number of reservations one should have about advocating an incineration project in the DR. Check out this thread:
http://dr1.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=107271
between the tables I posted I discussed why incineration has not proven a good option for Latin America in general and would probably not be one for the DR in particular.
Best Regards,
Keith

Autor del libro "Solid Wastes and Recycling in Latin America & the Caribbean: Trends & Policies"
 

Criss Colon

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Don't forget the "Barrio Re-cycling Projects"!!!

Every so often we take lots of worn out tires and burn them in the streets! We also burn our garbage all the time! This Refuse-To-Thermal helps in the "Global Warming Project",where we are trying to melt the Polar Ice to increase the Worlds water supply.The DR,"IS" doing its part!!!!! CC
 

Keith R

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Robert said:
Hehehe, I ain't going to argue with Keith on this topic :)
Mmmmeeeeeee? Argue? Talk trash? Neeevvveeerrr :rolleyes: :laugh:

Actually, I certainly have no monopoly on ideas and no pat answers in this field (or any other, for that matter!), so I am always open to discussing it (indeed, love to do so). And as Rob probably knows better than he wishes he did ;) , I may cover many, many consumer protection, environment & OHS issues in my policy work, but solid & liquid wastes and what to do about them has long been a strong professional and personal focus of mine....

Regards,
Keith
 

Keith R

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Re: Don't forget the "Barrio Re-cycling Projects"!!!

Criss Colon said:
Every so often we take lots of worn out tires and burn them in the streets! We also burn our garbage all the time! This Refuse-To-Thermal helps in the "Global Warming Project",where we are trying to melt the Polar Ice to increase the Worlds water supply.The DR,"IS" doing its part!!!!! CC

LOL. CC, you're a riot (pun intended). :cheeky:

Actually, from one public health point of view, it's not bad that those waste tires get picked up and/or burned. At least that way they don't become breeding grounds for dengue- and malaria-bearing mosquitos or hanta-bearing rats.

But there's so much else that could be done with those waste tires. For example, they can be used to make a great, safe covering for playgrounds. Can be used to make better asphalt. Can even be used as fuel in cement "klinker" kilns if the air emissions controls for the kilns in question are good.

Plenty of experience & tech in this, even in Latin America. Brazil is doing some real pioneering stuff in this right now.

Best Regards,
Keith
 

aaemet

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Keith

I?m sure you mean well, but it is that exact negative attitude that we all have that stops us from getting anywhere.

:paranoid: :confused: :nervous: :tired:

In the seventies and early eighties, all the Waste To Energy plants were actually straight incinerators with little energy, and barely any control of emissions. This caused a bad taste to all Waste To Energy. Europe, Australia, Singapore, and even the United States have now been putting up Waste To Energy plants that needs very little separation, creates a steady significant energy flow, and has emission controls more then 50 times better than most of our DR power plants today. Additionally, that project Eduardo is talking about is to recycle at least 50%, paper, metals, plastics, glass, etc?, and only use the remaining 50% for electricity. There are some major European conglomerates that have multiple plants with these new technologies across the globe, that make the diesel plants look like outdated pollution factories. Look at some of the following links. It took me 2 minutes on Yahoo to find them. I know that there is a new one being built in California, clearly complying with the strictest emission requirements, but I couldn?t find it, there are too many articles & web pages to sort through. Look at European technology on the web & you?ll be amazed.

:speechles :knockedou ;) :cool:

I think we should have this company set up a web site or something explaining its project in detail, and not just rely on our politicians to sign some secret deals on the side. But the concept in the last ten-fifteen years has become a total positive solution for trash.

Australia
http://www.brightstarenvironmental.com/html/env.htm

Scotland
http://www.caddet-re.org/public/uploads/pdfs/Brochure/no137.pdf

New York State
http://www.ocrra.org/WTE.html

Norway
http://www.caddet-re.org/public/uploads/pdfs/Brochure/no97.pdf

I?m sure there are some good ones in Singapore and Japan, but I?m getting dizzy looking. Look into it. The last 10 years have changed everything.
Don?t keep thinking backwards??
 

samiam

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Re: Re: Don't forget the "Barrio Re-cycling Projects"!!!

Keith R said:


Plenty of experience & tech in this, even in Latin America. Brazil is doing some real pioneering stuff in this right now.

Keith

I,ve seen a substiture for plywood and sheetrock made out of compacted trash. I remember I saw something about that in the news some 6 years ago where Fello, as mayor, signed a contract with some US company that would use trash for this sort of construction materiall.

Keith, I am going to back and read on your previous posts, I might find the answer there but I am going to ask anyways. Isn't trash a good source for fuel because of contamination? Does it burn dirtier that oil? Can gases be extracted efficiently enough to be burned?
well, let me read up and maybe I just shot myself in the foot.
Laters,
S
 

Keith R

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aaemet said:
Keith

I?m sure you mean well, but it is that exact negative attitude that we all have that stops us from getting anywhere.

aaemet,
1. First, as suggested, read the prior thread before you judge me.
2. My attitude toward energy recovery in general is not negative, but rather in the context of the DR, which presumably is what we are talking about here. I am being quite realistic, not overly negative. Energy recovery schemes work well in Denmark, Japan and Switzerland or perhaps even in California, but in all likelihood not in the DR. Market and cost structure is not the same. Waste mix is not the same (definite differences in materials mix and in the dry/humid ratio). Infrastructure is not the same. Environmental controls & oversight are not the same. Civic attitudes and habits are not the same. Maintenance mentality & diligence not the same. And so forth. The DR is not Denmark, Japan, Switzerland or California. NOT EVEN CLOSE!
3. Think for a minute why Robert said what he said. Perhaps take a closer look at the data and link provided in that prior thread. Could it be that, as a leading authority on waste policy in Latin America and the Caribbean (as Rob well knows I am), I might have a very sound basis for my opinion???

Regards,
Keith
 
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Keith R

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aaemet said:
Additionally, that project Eduardo is talking about is to recycle at least 50%, paper, metals, plastics, glass, etc?, and only use the remaining 50% for electricity.

Aaemet,
Can you name one country in the world that manages a 50% recycling rate (recycling rate, not recovery rate, and do you even know the difference?) for all those materials? You will not find it in North America or the European Union. What makes you think it will be achieved in Santo Domingo?????

Take a look at Brazil, widely considered the furthest along in recycling in all Latin America & the Caribbean:

Recycling of Specific Wastes in Brazil, 2000

Category / Domestic Production / % Recycled Annually
----------------------------------------------------------------

Stationary / 2,092,632 T / 22% (A)
Corrugated / 1,756,049 T / 72% (C)
Aluminum Cans / 10.2 bil. Cans / 78% (P)
Steel Cans / 750,000 T / 40% (C)
Glass Packaging / 900,000 T / 42% (C)
Tires / 45.8 mil. Units / 20% (A)
PET / 255,000 T / 26% (P)
Aseptic Packs / N/A / 15%
Used Oil / 343,000 m3 / 18% (C)
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Sources: ABPO, Bracelpa, Cempre

* expressed in terms of product available in the market (A),
product consumed (C) or product produced (P)

As you can see, even the Brazilians, after 20 years of concerted work at it, have yet to achieve such rates in more than a couple of products/materials. What makes you this this Eduardo and this wonder project will do it?

Don't get me wrong. I'm all for trying recycling in the DR -- in fact, as Rob and Dolores can attest, I have actually worked and fought to bring such concepts to the DR. But from what I know of this project, it most definitely is not the way forward in the Dominican context.

Respectfully,
Keith
 
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Keith R

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aaemet said:
The last 10 years have changed everything.
Don?t keep thinking backwards??

Them's fightin' words, mister! :mad:

I live, breathe, work & think about environmental, public health & consumer issues every day. It's my job since 1981 and my passion. On many issues -- and waste management in general and recycling in particular -- especially their application in Latin America and the Caribbean -- I am probably far better informed and up-to-date than anyone else you will meet, either here on DR1 or elsewhere. I am constantly thinking forward and looking -- with eyes wide open and without rose-colored glasses, unlike some people -- for realistic solutions that will work in the Latin American & Caribbean context, and not just the latest and greatest tech that works fine in Switzerland or Japan but is not appropriate, pratical and/or sustainable in a Dominican context.

Keith:angry:
 

Keith R

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Re: Re: Re: Don't forget the "Barrio Re-cycling Projects"!!!

samiam said:
I,ve seen a substiture for plywood and sheetrock made out of compacted trash. I remember I saw something about that in the news some 6 years ago where Fello, as mayor, signed a contract with some US company that would use trash for this sort of construction materiall.
Fello signed alot of contracts supposedly bringing recycling to Santo Domingo, as did Johnny. Don't remember the one you're refering to (and I should, because I was living in SD and active on recycling issues at the time), but all those deals came to naught.

I think you might be refering to so-called "composite wood" -- wood dust and fiber combined with plastic from recycled shopping bags, shipping wraps and agricultural wrap to make what is sometimes referred to as "plastic woods." Good stuff when done right, highly durable, but a tad expensive. Best example of this is made by Trex (http://www.trex.com), and I have visited their main factory here in Virginia -- in fact, took a Brazilian delegation there, because the Brazilians are considering getting into this business.

Best Regards,
Keith
 

Keith R

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Re: Thnaks

samiam said:
Keith,
Your info was very helpful. Thanks!
Happy Thanksgiving!!
S

Sam, a sus ordenes. Hey, today I discovered an interesting article in an Argentine regional newspaper about how they are experimenting in making house construction materials from recycled trash. If you read Spanish, you might find it quite interesting. Check out this link:
http://www.rionegro.com.ar/arch200311/23/r23p16.php
Best Regards,
Keith
 

aaemet

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People

It can be done. It has been done. You can get 90% reuse, with a combination of recycling & Waste-To-Energy.

So you ask, "Why wasn't it done, here or there?"

Because the friggin Government is involved.

It will work if it is 100% contracted out, and not in Government hands.

The commercial businesses in the U.S. that run transfer stations, do very well from the recycling. The ones run by the cities barely produce anything.

It is a simple process. Give a company the trash and let them pay for it, work on it, sort it, recycle it, burn it.... Who gives a hoot?!
Nobody needs this garbage.
They're not charging even one peso.
Let them do what they want.
Look at the article.....
They want the trash, they'll pay for everything, and if they lose money, tough luck!

The problem is..........
if you want my garbage, "what will you give me?"


I suggest, "A PUNCH IN THE FACE."




AA


:angry: :angry: :angry:
 

Keith R

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aaemet said:
People

It can be done. It has been done.

Where has it been done? In Latin America and the Caribbean? Not that I know of, but maybe I've missed something. Anywhere in the developing world??? Enlighten us. Give us an example to check out.


You can get 90% reuse, with a combination of recycling & Waste-To-Energy.

And where on earth do you get this magic figure from? According to the latest compendium of OECD environmental statistics related to waste (see link provided below), the highest recycling rate (which includes energy recovery in their working definition) was 67% in the year 2000 for Finland. You're claiming that the DR will do better than OECD nations?

So you ask, "Why wasn't it done, here or there?"

Because the friggin Government is involved.

It will work if it is 100% contracted out, and not in Government hands.


That is one of the key problems of applying such a project to the DR. Do you know of any major infrastructure project in the DR that the government has kept totally "hands-off"??? Any??? Bet even Hillbilly, whose expertise on the DR I'd match against anyone's on this board, cannot name one.

The commercial businesses in the U.S. that run transfer stations, do very well from the recycling. The ones run by the cities barely produce anything.


Well, we can agree on one thing -- most municipal-run programs in the U.S. do a poor job of recycling. NYC's program is a case in point. But not all do.

It's interesting that you qualify your point by mentioning "transfer stations." Any data or examples of contracted municipal waste transfer stations you can cite to back up this claim of doing "very well"? As I understand it from friends in the recycling biz here in the U.S., recyclers have had a tough go of it for the last few years. And much depends on which materials they sort and recycle and the market prices for those materials.

In any case, examples from the U.S. should not be expected to be duplicated in the DR. Different market altogether.

It is a simple process. Give a company the trash and let them pay for it, work on it, sort it, recycle it, burn it.... Who gives a hoot?!

Nobody needs this garbage.
They're not charging even one peso.
Let them do what they want.


This is one of my concerns about proposals for waste-to-energy (WTE) projects in the DR or anywhere else in Latin America. "letting them do what they want" will probably mean poor emissions controls, resulting in toxics releases into the air and water. And as for the flue ash... are you able to argue with a straight face that the hazardous materials will be diligently sorted out of the waste stream in the DR before the wastes go to the burner? That there will be no ink cartridges, no Ni-Cd or mercury button batteries, no lead-acid car or inverter batteries, no flourescent lamps, no CRTs, no mercury thermometers, no paint cans or oil cans or pesticide containers, no transformers with PCBs, no PVC piping or containers, no asbestos, etc etc? Otherwise, we're looking at the distinct possibility of toxic ash at the end of the incineration, and I have news for you buddy, the DR does not have ANY adequate storage or disposal facilities for hazardous wastes of any kind! Just ask the Environment Ministry. I have.

So if not disposed of within the DR, then what? Export it? To where? Under the DR's Basel Convention commitments, this would be difficult at best. And what country would accept toxic ash? Furthermore, who would pay for such exports? The company that says that they can do this all cheaply, without government largesse, yet still make a profit????


Look at the article.....


I did. Not convinced. Heard similar pitches like this all over Latin America. They weren't convincing either.

BTW, how about some information regarding this company Eduardo is citing? I have never heard of them, and a web search on their name comes up empty. :confused: File that under "things that make you go 'hmmmmm'"

They want the trash, they'll pay for everything, and if they lose money, tough luck!

Gee, sounds almost too good to be true, doesn't it? The people have to pay nothing. No risk, all benefit. Cheap energy (3 cents a KWH???? yeah, right!) is promised. What is that phrase consumers are constantly warned with? "If it sounds too good to be true...."

The problem is..........
if you want my garbage, "what will you give me?"

I suggest, "A PUNCH IN THE FACE."


AA

:angry: :angry: :angry:

Instead of punching people out, maybe you should do some deeper research and consider some questions:

Is waste-to-energy (WTE) really the best way to go with the waste problem in the DR? And who really benefits? What if a concerted effort was made to practice waste minimization and recovery/recycling of key materials, and/or even carving a niche for the DR as an exporter of goods made with quality recycled materials? Wouldn't this extend the economic benefit beyond just the builders/operators of this WTE project?

For those thinking this WTE project will help with the DR's energy problem, consider for a second if any of the increases in production capacity have helped resolve that problem appreciably over the last 10 yrs?

Why on earth would any legitimate business offer to invest in the DR now and insist that it will not cost DR citizens one cent, while solving all their trash and energy problems?

No matter what project promoters will claim, the capital costs of such projects usually is high. Why would someone risk sinking that much money in the DR market right now for a tech & process never proven in the DR context, and involving two segments of Dominican socioeconomic life where historically there have been habitual, nay chronic, government interference and resulting market uncertainty?

Is this even a legitimate company, with a substantial track record in WTE projects?

Why on earth would a DR presidential candidate be pushing the proposal of a single company? [Personally, I always smell a rat in the DR when a politician touts only one company's plan or product as the one that will save us all. Usually means the pol in question gets a cut on the action. Better when they check out competing technologies and put out a tender, picking the one that seems like the best and most appropriate mix for the best price/cost structure overall.]

What is in the DR that can lead people to believe that it can achieve higher recovery or recycling rates than Europe, North America, Japan or even Brazil?

Is the DR's environmental inspection and compliance machinery up to the task of ensuring that there are no toxic emissions from this WTE project, and that the flue ash is not toxic and is disposed of properly?

What happens to the waste that this project will NOT incinerate? If they do things properly, they will NOT incinerate "wet" trash, mainly food residues -- yet that is around 50% of the composition of DR municipal trash! Also, if they do it right, they will first sort out toxics. What will they do with the toxics? Get the government to haul them off (do you trust the government to handle them properly?)? Or dump it themselves or through third parties?

How in the world do these people figure their recycling rate and electricity cost figures? Based on what experience, and where? Are these figures even remotely applicable to the conditions in the DR?

OECD waste statistics
 
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jsizemore

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my unenlightend opinion

My opinion is that it can not be done in the DR for the simple fact as soon as you are successful you will be accused of stealing the government will seize your operation and ruin it.
 

Hillbilly

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My experience

As another hillbilly out of West (By God! ) Virginia, let me give you the word with the bark on it.

My son invested tens of thousands of dollars trying to set up a 25 megawatt waste to energy plant in Santiago. The local ayuntamiento and its greedy sob members along with every other pol in the woods had his hand or hands out!....they effectively killed the project. Now they are looking at the world's greatest oxymoron: A Sanatary Landfill!!

From what I read about efficiency, none of the proposed plants that he tried to purchase would live up to specs. And Dominican garbage does not have enough BTU content to fire the boilers efficiently and would have to be augmented with fuel oil....

I loved working on the project and thoroughly approve of the idea, BUT as a poster above has stated if youget just one SOB in the government involved your costs are going through the roof...


So, I don't see this happening in our lifetime...

HB
 

Keith R

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Re: My experience

Hillbilly said:
As another hillbilly out of West (By God! ) Virginia, let me give you the word with the bark on it.

My son invested tens of thousands of dollars trying to set up a 25 megawatt waste to energy plant in Santiago. The local ayuntamiento and its greedy sob members along with every other pol in the woods had his hand or hands out!....they effectively killed the project.


aamet, I rest my case. The experience of HB's son is not isolated, either. I have heard of several excellently conceived waste and sanitation projects intended for the DR (I personally know the environmental engineers involved in some of them), some with World Bank or IADB money ready to be committed, that fell flat because local pols could not see past the lining of their own pockets.

Now they are looking at the world's greatest oxymoron: A Sanatary Landfill!!


Yeah, as I pointed out in those quotes from my book in last year's thread, PAHO says few landfills exist in Latin America (most sites are dumps, usually open air), and only a few of these qualify as "sanitary" by WHO or EPA criteria. Most are "controlled" or "manual" fills. The most notable exceptions are those under construction in Chile, and a handful in Brazil and Colombia, with Montevideo soon to have one.

Although there is a running debate among experts in the U.S. about the long-term environmental value of even HDPE- lined ("sealed") sites, my attitude is that these are still far better than what the DR has now, which are largely uncontrolled dumps (even Duquesa in Santo Domingo is this). The Environmental Ministry has a plan for a series of mini-landfills, a system that once worked well in Peru and which is the basis for the current Chilean waste plan. But the Lima example shows that even the best-conceived and initiated mini-fill system can fall down if time and money is not put into careful maintenance. And we all know how poor the record is on maintenance of anything in the the DR....

From what I read about efficiency, none of the proposed plants that he tried to purchase would live up to specs. And Dominican garbage does not have enough BTU content to fire the boilers efficiently and would have to be augmented with fuel oil....


Precisely! From a tech standpoint these projects usually fall on their face. A WTE project works ok to well in many OECD nations because the waste composition is much different, something I alluded to repeatedly in my other posts. The organic ("wet") content of US waste, according to the EPA, is 23%, but in Latin America & the Caribbean (LAC) it is from 41-63%. Paper content in US & Japanese waste is around 40%, whereas in LAC it is half that or less. Plastic's share of US waste was 10.5% in the past and reportedly is rising; figures don't exist for the DR, but discussions with Dominican experts lead me to believe it is lower than that. Plastics add caloric value.

In order to get the Dominican waste up to proper caloric value, you would probably have to mix in waste tires, plastics and oil residues. But doing so requires tighter controls on air emissions. I've already expressed my concern about that in the context of the current Dominican environmental (non-)enforcement regime.

I loved working on the project and thoroughly approve of the idea, BUT as a poster above has stated if youget just one SOB in the government involved your costs are going through the roof...


So, I don't see this happening in our lifetime...

HB

As I said before, I am not opposed to municipal-scale or regional WTE projects per se. But I see few places in Latin America where I would recommend one just now, and the DR most definitely is not one of them. I wish I could say it was, but I cannot in good faith. As many of the long-time DR1ers know, I, more than most, want to help the DR with its waste management problem and have been exploring ways to do so that do not create more problems than they solve.

Best Regards,
Keith
 
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