Conspiracy as usual

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samiam

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I was speaking to a couple of friends about their impressions for next year and what immediate short term effect a change in the administration we would perceive.
It came as a bit of a shock when they said that it is a real possibility that elections in may 2004 will not be held. The reason for this, a very unstable economy develops in social unrest and disobedience causing an unsafe climate for elections. As a result, the government will have to assume the control of the state untill things calm down and certain economic recovery is felt in short term, this period of stabilization will ofcourse last two years and the unification of both elections, congressional and presidential will be achieved.
The distance and rivalry between the president and Leonel is so far, that Hipolito and his cronies will not feel safe abandoning power in 2004. In addition to this, I saw a poll in Diario Libre today that 54% of Latin Americans favored dictatorships if their quality of life improved. I agree, I personally do not think Democracy works well in our countries because it did not evolve but rather was imposed on Latin American Societies, hence the cultural and social repercussions of adopting that form of government will never allow it(democracy) to act and function with the same levels of 'efficiency' and 'maturity' as other countries that chose democracy as a form of government. But its what we have and we have to make it work. However, I choose not to believe that Hippo is such a nut case that he'll just call things off. I believe we will have elections and not having them represents 50 years of wasted efforts and struggle to develop this place into a slightly civilized nation. I believe that he is not such a nut case....then again if anyone had the audacity to self inflict a coup d'etat it would be Hipolito.
I know this might sound far-fetched and conspirative to some of you, but then again, two years ago I never thought I'd be changing dollars at a 44.5x1 rate.
Anyway, I just wanted to share this point of view with you guys to see if any of you had the same or similar impression.
 
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samiam

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I am not so convinced anymore. The more I see things change, the more they stay the same.
 
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sancochojoe

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Most Democracies don't work in Economically deprived countries.
When the general populations preoccupation is keeping their mouths fed, anybody can assume power of a country and take advantage of the system. The person just needs to give the people a little bit of lip service and act upon some small promises.

Dictatorship for these countries at least provide some form of control and dicipline. The people that need to fear dictators are the ones who oppose them.
In other countries they call them "Kings"

Read the books written by "machiavelli" Thats the game plan followed by many Dictators and beleive it or not followed by Strong Capitalistic Countries and Corporations. Actually some of Bushs people coined some of Machiavelli's quotes. If you read his writings you would thing Bush was following the script word for word.
 
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ERICKXSON

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Sancocho Joe where is your Head at? could you read what you just wrote.....................Muchacho asme el grandisimo favor, how can you dare to say that a dictatorship will work nowdays, let me enlight your day child, first of all you write pretty good English don't you? which leads me to believe that (A) either your family has lots of cash to send you abroad to study or (b) you used to live in the States or still live. i bet life is good You have enjoy freedom your whole entire life and now you want that to be taken away.

Are you nuts or in nee of nuts.

EL GATO ERICK :bandit:
 
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sancochojoe

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Did I say "dictatorship will work" No I didnt, I said what dictatorships provide. Please don't put words in my mouth and misquote me.
I did not advocate anything just explaining some results you get when applied.

We do know that Democracy does not work in all countries. If you live in DR you should already know that.
 
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principe

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Nov 19, 2002
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Reeeeeelax

Ummm, no. Dictartorships are not good for anyone, anywhere. What i seem to be witnessing rather frequently on many of these forums (except golo he's allowed) is a reoccurring theme. One which depicts dominicans, if not latin americans in general as a mass of uncontrollable people. So uncontrollable that they need a hard fisted ruler to "save" them from a precarious existence. Only the enligthened dictator would be able to achieve this. Wrong. Simple responsible financial management would be the solution.

Chile is a great example, consider life under Pinochet, and life now in Chile. "Well only if you oppose him is there something to worry about." As opposed to now there is nothing to worry about in terms of repression agaisnt the public, Chileans enjoy great economic growth and stability, arguably the best in Latin America.

Back to DR, elections will take place and Hippo will be defeated.

Since most of Hippos peeps will not be allowed into the US or anywhere else for that matter we got them by the you know what.
Machiavelli this: Just give time, time. If i were Leonel I would chill for a year, and in collaboration with the Department of Justice bring a strong case forward all of the "dirty ones."
 
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principe

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Sancochojeoy got a point

Ni tanto, ni tampoco.

I dont know what one would compare the Dominican democratic experiment to. Certainly, I hope that it is not being compared to the US. "Why that's not fair, a democracy is a democracy."

No, the DR is at a point of consolidation of its democratic process in every aspect (ie it still has the new car smell) Although yes the country is generally moving in the right direction from a democratic point of view, it still has to shed some of strong links to the past. Thus, your reference to dictator like tactics.

Anyone in favor of returning to a dictatorship at this point in time probably is a person facing rather strong economic hardship and neccessity guides this desire. Not an objective reality that indicates that developing nations have a need or use for dictators. Feel me??
 
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samiam

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Re: Reeeeeelax

principe said:

Chile is a great example, consider life under Pinochet, and life now in Chile. "Well only if you oppose him is there something to worry about." As opposed to now there is nothing to worry about in terms of repression agaisnt the public, Chileans enjoy great economic growth and stability, arguably the best in Latin America.
Click to expand...

The question you should ask is not what is Chile after Pinochet but rather what it was before.

So what happens when a nation can not achieve the self discipline to carry out a 'responsible financial management' policy that will bring stability, growth and prosperity to the people? After a long time electing presidents someone who thinks they can get things done will rise for the ocation and if all conditions permit, will go for the glory, and they majority will support that person untill they get tired of him and kill him on his/her way home in the middle of the malecon.

Again, I really dont care much for dictators and dictatorships but I dont think the times we live in rule out this possibility, just because we have moved along and have the illusion that the powers in government are separate. If you believe that, think about who controls the senate, the congress of diputados, the JCE and the armed forces in this country. There is no way a democracy can flourish under these conditions. Furthermore, the poor education, lack of vision and tigueraje that plagues most of our representatives have kept the municipal and legislative branches under the shadow of the presidency, hence we have no real system of checks and balances which is a fundamental pillar needed for any democracy to works. The lack of education, vision of state and surplus of tigueraje that our elected representatives have in these the different branches of government asures me that our democracy will never have a balance of real power and maybe it should not for the time being.
 
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Porfio_Rubirosa

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Apr 26, 2002
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Postponed Elections

I agree with Samiam's original premise. Elections could be "delayed". I believe this for two reasons:

1. I do not believe that Hippo, Gomez Mazara, Malkum, Pepe Goico, etc., are pro-democracy and, as we all know too well, their greed and lust for power knows no limits; and

2. The PRD has a working relationship with the syndicates. When Balaguer was President, Pena Gomez could orchestrate strikes. Civil unrest can occur at any time upon PPH request.

I also believe that Leonel is very aware of this. Thus, you will not see the PLD leading, participating or encouraging any strikes or protests.
 
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ERICKXSON

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Re: Postponed Elections

Porfio_Rubirosa said:
I agree with Samiam's original premise. Elections could be "delayed". I believe this for two reasons:

1. I do not believe that Hippo, Gomez Mazara, Malkum, Pepe Goico, etc., are pro-democracy and, as we all know too well, their greed and lust for power knows no limits; and

2. The PRD has a working relationship with the syndicates. When Balaguer was President, Pena Gomez could orchestrate strikes. Civil unrest can occur at any time upon PPH request.

I also believe that Leonel is very aware of this. Thus, you will not see the PLD leading, participating or encouraging any strikes or protests.
Click to expand...


Is not going to happen even if they stay in power by creating an unrest situation in the country.....The DR FRIENDS will come to the Rescue......

Friends for example those with large amount of money in the DR
do i need to say more? well i guess yes 1. those that have lend money to the DR.


are you nuts or in need of some?
Erick the cat :bandit:
 
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Golo100

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My two cents

Elections will take place, rain, thunder or shine. There is no way Hippo can stop elections, even under rioting. If anything, experience shows that rioting only overthrows governments and create an atmosphere for new fair elections. Besides, the U.S. has ordered elections. No way Bush will allow Hippo by force. He does not like Hippo anyway, neither Leonel. But he prefers clean elections. The military is under tight reigns by the U.S. military. Bush has a large contingent of U.S. specialized troops and technical people already infiltrated in the country. We are very much under siege by the U.S. The DEA, CIA and other intelligence agencies are here to stay. Jimmy Carter will be here. Clinton and Casa De Campo owners want no disturbances. The business community want Hippo out of the way. They will invest heavily on the elections to try to bury his career for good. Hippo has offended too many big people in DR. Many people, like me, are even ready for commonwealth talk. I prefer U.S. control rather than chopos running this show.

TW
 
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samiam

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Elections will be held

I am not saying elections won't be held the 16 of may. I believe they should be held. And I wish to get rid of Hippolito tomorrow if there was a way(Just for the record erickxon).

I am just saying that the possibility of elections being postponed is real. It happens all the time accross the border.

Just as the possibility of electoral fraud might keep this bastard in power 4 or 2 more years. I am just saying HE IS capable of this and more.
It happened exactly 10 years ago (not such a long time) when Balaguer stayed in power from 1994-1996. although it was not the same because economic conditions wherevery stable but the PRD controlled the masses.
 
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Porfio_Rubirosa

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Re: My two cents

Golo100 said:
Many people, like me, are even ready for commonwealth talk. I prefer U.S. control rather than chopos running this show.

TW
Click to expand...

This overly inflated view of the importance of the DR in the New World Order never ceases to amaze me.

Message to Golo, Tony C., and others: The US doesn't want you. The US doesn't care about you. The US has a moderate interest in the DR in regards to controlling drugs and money laundering. Otherwise, a barbaric thieving president is okay as long as the country pretends to be a democracy.

Unless and until we get some oil wells or some real honest to God terrorists, we're a speck on the map. Acceptalo!

As for Dominican elites wanting Hippo out, well, I thought he bailed you all out of your Baninter and Bancredito accounts that paid you absurd rates of interest for years? Surely that was worth something. And he provided troops for George Bush. Accordingly, the Dominican elites and the US seem happy to deal with the Hippo. It's only every other non-lambon in the country that suffers.

Like Balaguer, Hippo knows he will have to dance a few rounds with the US and OAS after the next elections. He's already taken the IMF to the cleaners. Next up: Collin Powell.

Erixson also thinks that the US will swoop into the rescue. Well, they won't. At least not immediately.

I hear a chant building: "Two more years, two more years, two more years" [and, of course, an immunity agreement].
 
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samiam

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Mar 5, 2003
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Finally someone seems to know how things work here.

Again, it has happened before and COULD happen again. Whoever thinks those days are gone, has no idea where they are living in.
 
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Texas Bill

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IF there is sufficient impetus behind a country-wide protest , and IF the UN, US, Others Overseers of the electoral process see enough fraud being committed, there Might be reprocussions from those fronts. I must agree with those that say there will be no form of intervention from external forces should this happen.
It is possible that if Hippo declares Martial Law in the wake of massive rioting, FOR WHATEVER REASON, he will have a modicum of support from the US, the UN and others from a "wait and see" stand.
It is still the prerrogative of the legitimate government to police it's population in such an aftermath.
If the causitive factors are not corrected, ie., hold another election, then it would be another matter entirely. I'm sure there would be sanctions against any "democratic" government attempting to stay in power under such circumstances. Cuba and the embargo(by the US) is a good example.
That's not to say that would happen, however, but merely suggestive of actions taken by other nations against a rogue government.

Texas Bill
 
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