The Real Haiti.

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JenniferDiaz

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Everybody, please visit this link:

http://www.sun-sentinel.com/haiti

It is an excellent report done by a Florida newspaper on
the reality of Haiti, and how their way of life is destroying the
western part of the Hispaniola.

The report is titled: "Haiti: The eroding nation"

If we let them, they will destroy the whole island.
 

mountainfrog

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Haiti?s present is DR?s future

Many of the pictures in this excellent piece of journalism could have been taken in this country. Unfortunately the DR has all the ingredients needed to meet the same fate as Haiti:
- most people do not respect their natural resources nor the environment;
- the population growth will thwart any betterment in infrastructure and education;
- corruption and carelessness will sqander the resources of this country;
- selfish and irresponsible "leaders" are
siphoning off aid money;
- greed and envy will eventually erode any ethics left.
God did not help Haiti and there is not
much hope for this country either.
Merecido?
 

JenniferDiaz

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It 's the Haitian culture of conficts and distruction

mountainfrog,

You forgot to mention the most important part,
the large number of Haitians coming into DR.

They did it to the western part of the Hispaniola.
 

mountainfrog

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Without any help

Dear Jennifer,
just wait and see what Dominicans are able to do to their own country without any help from their Western neighbours.
I have not seen any Haitians here sponging on a Dominican Welfare System, in fact most of them are hard working and willing to work.
 

Pib

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BTW, comparing the DR with Haiti shows ignorance of both countries. There is little comparison to be made, and I dare to disagree with the doomsayers. The day I see the Dominican middle class massively pack their bags and go to Miami THEN I will believe it.

What Haiti lacks, first and foremost is a middle class. And before you say there is no middle class in the DR, look at Haiti, look here. See the difference? This is indeed an over-simplistic explanation, there is more I know, but that is a difference that makes a difference. The symptoms of the diseases that both countries suffer are the same; the disease is only the same in the same way that a common cold and tuberculosis may be alike.

I wish I had the answer to the question of what to do with and for our neighbor. I will go and think about it.
 

JenniferDiaz

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Comparing Apples to Oranges

Dear Mountainfrog,

Dominicans had been planting trees for decades,
if you are really Dominican you know this,
the army, students, and private organizations had
carry out reforestation campaigns for decades now.

Haitians don't really have a sense of nation.
They talk a lot about their history, but that is
just an ego thing for them. They don't do any thing
for Haiti, they just talk with a false sense of
greatness, while their country falls apart.
Your try very hard to create parallels, but Haitians have no parallels in the Americas.
 
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JenniferDiaz

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Re: Haiti?s present is DR?s future

mountainfrog said:
God did not help Haiti

This is very typical in the Haitians way of thinking, they always blame others for their own actions. If is not France, is the USA, or the Dominicans, but now it is God's fault.

The Haitians are always the victims, they never do anything.
 

Chirimoya

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Dec 9, 2002
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Why the cocks fight is a good comparison between the DR and Haiti. It draws some parallels in explaining how each country got to where it is now.

It might be an oversimplification but I would say that where the DR got a bad deal, the Haitians got tenfold worse: see bad government, corruption, political violence, repression, poverty, to name just a few.

The environmental problems in Haiti arise as a result of corporate greed on one end of the spectrum and at the other end it is poverty and desperation that drives people to cut wood for charcoal. There are attempts to stop this, like the promotion of coffee as an export crop, because coffee cultivation and reforestation go hand in hand.

There is no doubt, though, that Haiti's problems will not be solved until the fundamentals of governability are tackled: and this is not an easy task. Perhaps the worst betrayal for Haitians has been the government of Aristide that had promised a fresh new start after decades of dictatorship.

Dominicans are right when they say they should not bear the brunt of the consequences of Haiti's tragedy alone. The international community has a responsibility here and already many international organisations working in the DR target Haitians as the most vulnerable sector of the population, especially in the border regions. For example, much of the international aid that entered the country after December's flooding in the NE went to help Haitian flood victims, because the Dominican victims had support networks within the country and were the ones that tended to be targeted by national aid efforts. All or most of the people in shelters were Haitian, apparently. This is said to be one of the reasons that the government was ambivalent about accepting a certain major international donation.

Lastly, I have visited Haiti twice (96, 98) and hope to visit again later this month. I know that a certain fatalism prevails there, as it does here in the Dominican Republic, for reasons that are understandable. This is not always the case, though: there are many Haitian people working hard to improve their country's lot. It might be said to be pissing in the wind, because the odds against Haiti's recovery are so gigantic, but someone has to start somewhere.

Chiri
 

Hillbilly

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I certainly agree with Chiri on this, "You have to start somewhere".

Haitian history reads like a case study in misgovernment, going from bad to worse over two centuries. An amazing tale of death, distruction and despotism.

Yet, there are possibilities. I understand that France is, at last, going to promote reconstruction works, Canada and the DR are joining forces to reforest the Artbonito River watershed area, and there are other steps being taken.There are Dominican entrepreneurs that are joining forces with their Haitian counterparts to begin free industrial zones in PAP and Juana M?ndez (Ounamenthe). I know a chap that is beginning a cigar factory in Jacmel.

The tasks are scary to say the least. An educational system the size of New York City's is needed NOW. Water treatment facilities the size of Chicago are needed NOW.

Remember that the government of Dr. Balaguer, together with the Santiago Development Association and the PUCMM faculty designed the PLAN SIERRA 30 years ago! And one of the basic tenents was to teach urban values to mountain people so that they would abandon the mountains and remove pressure on the forests. Why, you ask? Because it is economically sounder to get them to the cities where one school can handle kids more effectively than 10 schools in the mountians and one hospital can do a better job that ten rural clinics. There is still a huge, long way to go, but the seed is there and lots of people are working on this. Look a what the Banco Popular is doing in Neiba.

Jennifer you did a very good thing by bringing this up. thank you!

HB
 

Chirimoya

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Hillbilly, tell us more about Plan Sierra. It sounds like an astoundingly ill-thought out concept. Cost-effective maybe, but what about the long term consequences of excessive urbanisation, such as we see now? Sprawling marginal neighbourhoods with little or no infrastructure, high unemployment and underemployment, rising crime rate, environmental doom and gloom!

In the seventies the DR, like many other Latin American countries had a 30-70 urban rural demographic balance. This figure (again, as in most other comparable countries) is now reversed.

A more sensible and sustainable plan would have been to promote realistic economic alternatives for the rural population that do not have a negative impact on the environment. Coffee production is just one example, others would be managed forestry programmes, like the acacia cultivation in many areas in the eastern Cibao region, and locally marketable food crops. Preventing migration to the cities is far more productive in the long-term.

Oops, sorry, this has nothing to do with Haiti. New thread perhaps?

Chiri
 

ltsnyder

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like sand between the fingers, how to lose everything

I beleive the Dominican republic can suffer the same fate. The horrible aspect of what is happening to Haiti is that once the top soil is gone, it is gone and you can never grow anything on that soil again. The type of soil and strata in Haiti is the same as what I see in POP and so many areas, a 6 inch top soil layer or so covering lose clay like soil that washes away easily (you need look no further than the lanslide on mount Isabel Torres to see the soil structure).

The only preventive measure is eternal vigulince, but you must remember what will (or could ) happen is a form of catastrophic failure, as the soil errodes more people are left poor to scrouge for a living off of charcoal hunting which leads to more errosion. So be very afaird, by the time you notice something is wrong, it could be far too late. The fact that the population of the DR is not stabilizing is a sure sign that it is only a mater of time.

No it won't be like Haiti, it will be a Dominican version of the same thing. DR Govenment curruption is not a reassuring factor either, stiff pentalties for chopping down trees and stiff immigration enforcement helps.

I see a lot of hills semi-stripped of trees in the DR, and as for a middle class, what the last year has done to the middle class has been a catastophy, so many families I know the have made it by for the last 15 years with few problems, now keep a brave face while they can't see how they can make ends meet for the next year (forget about saving anything).

-Lee
 

Tom F.

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Bosch and Papa Doc

Very interesting thread and reading. I ended up doing some more reading on the subject and found out a few new things. Juan Bosch sent troops to the border to invade.

This is from the Library of Congress website

A more tense and confrontational situation developed in April 1963 between Duvalier and Dominican Republic president Juan Bosch Gavi?o. Duvalier and Bosch were confirmed adversaries; the Dominican president provided asylum and direct support to Haitian exiles who plotted against the Duvalier regime. Duvalier ordered the Presidential Guard to occupy the Dominican chancery in P?tionville in an effort to apprehend an army officer believed to have been involved in an unsuccessful attempt to kidnap the dictator's son, Jean-Claude Duvalier, and daughter, Simone Duvalier. The Dominican Republic reacted with outrage and indignation. Bosch publicly threatened to invade Haiti, and he ordered army units to the frontier. Although observers throughout the world anticipated military action that would lead to Duvalier's downfall, they saw events turn in the Haitian tyrant's favor. Dominican military commanders, who found Bosch's political leanings too far to the left, expressed little support for an invasion of Haiti. Bosch, because he could not count on his military, decided to let go of his dream to overthrow the neighboring dictatorship. Instead, he allowed the matter to be settled by emissaries of the Organization of American States (OAS).

http://memory.loc.gov/cgi-bin/query/r?frd/cstdy:@field(DOCID+ht0025)

I will always be a fan of Juan Bosch but never knew he had this in him.

Plan Sierra, Plan Quisqueya, reforestation projects, lets start a new thread on the environmental forum

After working in rural areas in various parts of the country, it is evident the younger generation is not staying. If the road is maintained and it isn't too difficult to get back and forth, it happens less. Maybe thats why the government does such a poor job on the roads in the campos.
 

Don Juan

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Long term solution.

Haiti's present problems are DR's future problems. It is obvious that the uncontroled population explotion affecting Haiti is at the root of this situation. As with anything that exist on this earth, environment can only support so much given a certain land area. I don't need to explain the consequences of over- population. Evironmental degradation will continue to worsen or recover in direct proportion to its' flora-fauna link. The best and most effective cure to our islands' catastrophic,and frightening future is to enact a strong family-planning policy to limit our numbers and to drastically curtail inmigration from everywhere especially from Haiti. Education on conservation and smart management of our resources is vital to our continued survival. Also getting rid of Aristide and the Hippo would be a good start.
 

Chirimoya

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Some good observations in your post, Don Juan

Haiti's present problems are DR's future problems.

This goes without saying.


It is obvious that the uncontroled population explotion affecting Haiti is at the root of this situation.

It is a factor, yes, but the real root problem is poverty.


The best and most effective cure to our islands' catastrophic,and frightening future is to enact a strong family-planning policy to limit our numbers and to drastically curtail inmigration from everywhere especially from Haiti.

Family planning policies will not work in isolation. As long as people are poor and uneducated they will continue to have large families, for a range of reasons. They tried it in India, it hasn't worked. In China they have a one-child policy but it is enforced by draconian methods and leads to tragedies like widespread abortion of female foetuses, female infanticide and abandonment.


Education on conservation and smart management of our resources is vital to our continued survival.

Undoubtedly, but you need a certain level of affluence where people have their basic needs met and are not struggling to survive on a day to day basis, before they are in a position to care about such "luxuries".


Also getting rid of Aristide and the Hippo would be a good start.

In the case of Aristide, who or what would replace him?

Chiri
 

suarezn

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Maybe is the optimist in me, but I don't believe the DR will ever get to the level of Haiti in terms of deforestation. I now see, particularly amongst the younger people, a certain level of understanding of how important it is to have trees, etc. In addition people in the DR DO NOT want to use charcoal anymore for cooking. Almost everyone nowdays has a stove and uses propane gas for cooking. Overpopulation is a whole different story. That I think is already happenning in certain bigger cities. The bigger issue will be how to control immigration from the other side if famine breaks out.
 
I look at Haiti no different then I look at DR. Both have similar backgrounds and both have had limited time to develop givin
the multiple occupations in history that would not allow growth.
You could never compare countries like Haiti and DR to countires you see in the far east or Europe because by reading the below timeline you would see the majority of the countries existence was nothing but occupation, division, outside influence, slavery and ill management due to not knowing.
After all the occupying countries and cultures got what the came to get, the remenants is what you see today. Nothing but Crumbs. Dont have historic perspectives limited to just your life time and come with a conclusion that this is why they are what they are. history says a lot about the essence of a country but try to include the whole history. Dont blame these people, they are just the result of what took place. The Island and the two countries need time, and it wont happen in your life time. We tend to get caught up in this easy fix mentality when it comes to problems of other countries. "Rome wasn't built in a day"

1492 Christopher Columbus lands and claims the island Hispaniola for Spain. He encounters the Ta?no Arawak people, who call their land Ayiti, or ?mountainous land?.

1520s The Spanish first import African slaves.

1629 French adventurers establish a base in western Hispaniola.

1697 Treaty of Ryswick divides Hispaniola into St. Domingue (French) and Santo Domingo (Spanish).

1791-1803 Slavery uprisings result in an abolition of slavery and an eventual defeat against European forces.

1804 Haiti is declared independent from France, making it the first Black republic in the western hemisphere.

1807-20 A civil war divides Haiti into a northern kingdom ruled by Henri Cristophe and a southern republic governed by Alexandre Petion.

1820 Reunification under Jean-Pierre Boyer.

1822-44 Haiti occupies Spanish Santo Domingo.

1915-34 United States occupies Haiti.

1957 Fran?ois ?Papa Doc? Duvalier is elected president with the support of the Haitian army and the US.

1964 Duvalier declares himself President-for-Life and forms the paramilitary group Tontons Macoutes.

1971 Duvalier dies. His son, Jean-Claude ?Baby Doc? Duvalier, replaces him.

1986 Widespread protests lead the US to assists Duvalier?s exile from Haiti.
1990 December 16 First free presidential election. Jean Bertrand Aristide is elected with a 67% majority vote.

1991 September 30 General Cedras leads a coup d?etat; Aristide leaves Haiti. The international community decrees an embargo on Haiti.

1993 July 3 The Governor?s Island Agreement, which provides for Aristide?s return to Haiti, is signed. Its provisions are not carried out.

1994 September 19 A UN multination force led by the US begins a military intervention.
October 15 Aristide?s peaceful return.

1995 December 17 Presidential elections; Ren? Pr?val is elected.

1996 February 7 Pr?val is sworn in as president. February 15
Rosny Smarth is appointed Prime Minister.

1997 April 6 Senate elections. June 9 Prime Minister Smarth resigns. An indecision over the transition of a new Prime Minister creates a political deadlock within the parliament and the government ?functions? without a Prime Minister for 18 months.

1998 December 15 Jacques Alexis is confirmed as the new Prime Minister.

1999 January 11 The terms of members of Parliament expire. Ren? Pr?val dissolves the parliament and rules by decree. January 14 Alexis enters into office. The cabinet and the governmental program are established without parliamentary approval. March 16 Ren? Pr?val establishes a provisionary electoral counsel in charge of organizing the elections.
2000 April 3 Assassination of Jean Dominique, a well known and outspoken journalist. The killing marks the beginning of a decline in the human rights condition in Haiti. May 21 Elections for local and parliamentary administrations. The vote counting is contested. The electoral counsel used a flawed vote count to favor Fanmi Lavalas (Aristide?s party). The opposition declares the vote illegal; the OAS, EU, US and Canada demand a revision, Haiti does not respond, and the donors suspend their aid programs. July 9 Second round of elections: Fanmi Lavalas obtains 72 of the 83 seats in Parliament and 2/3 of the 75,000 municipal seats. November 26 Presidential elections, with opposition refusing to participate. Jean Bertrand Aristide is elected President.

2001 February 7 Aristide is sworn in as president. The Democratic Convergence creates a parallel government: G?rard Gourgue is sworn in as a provisional president. December 17 Attempted coup d?etat. According to the opposition, it is a government production staged in order to pursue the opposition. The Convergence headquarters are burned down after the ?coup?.

2002 January 21 Prime Minister Ch?restal resigns. March 1 The OAS signs an accord with Haiti to allow an OAS mediation mission in the midst of the political crisis. September 4 The OAS adopts resolution 822. The resolution calls for immediate disarmament, new elections in 2003, and an end to the block on international aid.
 
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