Corruption in the Dominican Republic.

B

BushBaby

Silver
Jan 1, 2002
3,829
329
0
79
www.casabush.org
Transparency International has compiled a Corruption Perceptions Index which ranks countries as to how corrupt they are perceived to be. Out of the 102 countries listed, Finland comes out on top (viz. least corrupt), the Dominican Republic ties at 59th place with China & Ethiopia, Russia is in 71st. place & bottom honours go to Nigeria (101) & Bangladesh (102). Cuba is not listed - presumably because of insufficient data.
Top of the list are the rich nations, bottom the poor ones, prompting the question is a country poor because it is corrupt, or corrupt because it is poor?Readers may care to post their Dominican Republic corruption stories, particularly in these pre-election days & also since it will probably be less "fun" chasing a good rate for the dollar in the next few weeks!
Details about methodology of the survey can be found at http://www.transparency.org/pressreleases_archive/2002/2002.08.28cpi.en.html
Translations are also available in Spanish (& Russian!).
Ginnie
P.S. The U.K. came 10th in this survey & the U.S.A 16th but such matters are not properly the subject of this Board & anyway I'd hate to wind anyone up!
 
NALs

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,482
3,186
113
In my opinion, the reason why rich countries are almost always rated as the least corrupt and the poor countries as the most corrupt is because:
1. Those reports are done by rich countries.
2. Rich countries have more ways to hide their corruption.

For number 1, it's just common sense. Do you think rich countries want to consider themselves as corrupt or evil, no way. However, Iraq, the country with the second largest oil reserves on earth, was invaded by Bush and he happens to own a company named Arbusto Oil Corporation. Corruption, no it can be. :pirate:

For number 2, poor countries have their investigative eyes on every dust that settles in their government. Take the DR, every single itty bitty bit of corruption practices in the government or what seems as a corrupt practice makes it to the front page of every newspaper, and then the story might span a good 2 or 3 pages if there is good evidence. In the U.S. for example, people are not conserned with corruption because "it doesn't happen in the U.S.", so the government lies lies and lies, the media only writes about the murders instead of the corrupt politicians and all hell breaks lose when the public schools are failing, the highway system collapse completely, and we find the U.S. as a third world country with no good jobs because all the jobs are heading to India and China. But no, corruption has nothing to do with it and when corruption is looked upon as a motive, it's the corporate CEOs the ones that are corrupt, but not the government. :pirate:

Get the picture, poor country scrutenize their governments from top to bottom because most people have a hard life and in rich countries corruption stares at us on our faces and we simply don't see it, because our life is so comfortable, why mess with it.
 
T

Tony C

Silver
Jan 1, 2002
2,262
2
0
www.sfmreport.com
Nal0whs said:
For number 1, it's just common sense. Do you think rich countries want to consider themselves as corrupt or evil, no way. However, Iraq, the country with the second largest oil reserves on earth, was invaded by Bush and he happens to own a company named Arbusto Oil Corporation. Corruption, no it can be. :pirate: .
Click to expand...


What ridiculous web-site did you get this story from?

Nal0whs said:
For number 2, poor countries have their investigative eyes on every dust that settles in their government. Take the DR, every single itty bitty bit of corruption practices in the government or what seems as a corrupt practice makes it to the front page of every newspaper, and then the story might span a good 2 or 3 pages if there is good evidence. In the U.S. for example, people are not conserned with corruption because "it doesn't happen in the U.S.", so the government lies lies and lies, the media only writes about the murders instead of the corrupt politicians and all hell breaks lose when the public schools are failing, the highway system collapse completely, and we find the U.S. as a third world country with no good jobs because all the jobs are heading to India and China. But no, corruption has nothing to do with it and when corruption is looked upon as a motive, it's the corporate CEOs the ones that are corrupt, but not the government. :pirate:

Get the picture, poor country scrutenize their governments from top to bottom because most people have a hard life and in rich countries corruption stares at us on our faces and we simply don't see it, because our life is so comfortable, why mess with it.
Click to expand...

Do you really believe the stuff you write?

I do not deny that there is corruption in the US but it is ridiculous to compare it to a country like the DR where it is institutionalized. From the top to the bottom.
In the DR you have to support corruption just to function in society. Need to re-new a license plate? Pay a guy to pay a guy to get your tag. If not, waste a day(If your lucky) in line and doing a paper dance. In the US...Walk in. Pay the Tax. Walk out. 15 mins.(Not even that if you do it on-line.) Nobody takes a bribe. Nobody asks for "un mordida"!
Traffic stop. In the US..."Sorry officer" Take your ticket. pay your fine or go to court and fight it. It is not even worth taking the chance of bribing the cop. Odds are you'll just get busted for Attempted Bribery. In the DR...If you do even bother to stop throw him some monopoly money and be on your way. Ok AMET you do have to bribe with more.
I can go on and on about the ways in which you have to grease plams in the DR just to survive. The same thing that in the US is straight forward. No hassles.
As in many countries, corruption is ingrained in the culture. Even if you disapprove of it you still do it just to live.
I am not going to debate US public policy here because this is a Dominican Fourm. So please just drop the "Bush is evil, Tax the rich, Give all the money to the poor" comments. It is getting tiresome.
 
Robert

Robert

Stay Frosty!
Jan 2, 1999
20,574
341
83
dr1.com
Nal0whs said:
In my opinion, the reason why rich countries are almost always rated as the least corrupt and the poor countries as the most corrupt is because:
1. Those reports are done by rich countries.
2. Rich countries have more ways to hide their corruption.

For number 1, it's just common sense. Do you think rich countries want to consider themselves as corrupt or evil, no way. However, Iraq, the country with the second largest oil reserves on earth, was invaded by Bush and he happens to own a company named Arbusto Oil Corporation. Corruption, no it can be. :pirate:

For number 2, poor countries have their investigative eyes on every dust that settles in their government. Take the DR, every single itty bitty bit of corruption practices in the government or what seems as a corrupt practice makes it to the front page of every newspaper, and then the story might span a good 2 or 3 pages if there is good evidence. In the U.S. for example, people are not conserned with corruption because "it doesn't happen in the U.S.", so the government lies lies and lies, the media only writes about the murders instead of the corrupt politicians and all hell breaks lose when the public schools are failing, the highway system collapse completely, and we find the U.S. as a third world country with no good jobs because all the jobs are heading to India and China. But no, corruption has nothing to do with it and when corruption is looked upon as a motive, it's the corporate CEOs the ones that are corrupt, but not the government. :pirate:

Get the picture, poor country scrutenize their governments from top to bottom because most people have a hard life and in rich countries corruption stares at us on our faces and we simply don't see it, because our life is so comfortable, why mess with it.
Click to expand...

Obviously you have never lived in a Latin American or Third World country for an extended period of time.

As Tony C has said, corruption exists on even the very basic levels here and goes all the way up.

If you want to talk about corruption in other countries go do it on another website. This forum is about the upcoming elections, not the DR's ranking in world corruption.
 
B

BushBaby

Silver
Jan 1, 2002
3,829
329
0
79
www.casabush.org
Well, what I was HOPING for......

.....was examples of corruption relating to the run up to the elections, so that those of us spending time writing to the world's press had some concrete examples to pass on. We know about dead people's cedulas & the military, but there must be many other examples. I obviously didn't make that clear. Is there a place for those of us foreigners who have cedulas to check we're NOT on the lists, as we shouldn't be voting anyway?
Ginnie
 
NALs

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,482
3,186
113
For many people on this board and elsewhere, it's hard for them to grasp how I come up with my political points of view. Well, it all goes down to this simple question. Why is it that the U.S. or the "Free World" thinks that a totalitarian or communist or non-democratic country is evil when in many democracies in the world, corruption is rife and yet, those democracy as accepted as being "good" countries. It doesn't makes much sense to me.

Many times with the DR, it seems that the country was much better off under Trujillo than under all the chopos ruling this nation. Under Trujillo if you didn't support him you were killed, but the economy was growing during his reign, people were in generally happy to know that they will live as long that they show some loyalty to the Jefe because they were not really starving to death. Peasants had land to farm on, city dwellers had free non-interruptive electricity, most had running water, and everything was priced in "cheles" or dominican cents, life was much better in Dominicana economically back then then now.

Now, the DR is a democratic country and yeah, no one gets killed for no reason (in theory), there is no electricity, many people can't live on their meagre wages, no one in the government have an ideology for the future of this country other than line their pockets with as much public money as possible while the country falls into a hell hole. Many times I ask my self whats better, bondage with economic security or freedom with economic insecurity?

The thing now is that many people (not just in the DR, but across Latin America) are now questioning whether democracy is the right thing for their countries. Notice how in Brazil they elected a President that had never been in public office of any kind, in Venezuela they voted a strong leftist into power-though they regret it now-, in Peru the same thing has been unfolding.

Tony C, what you quoted the first time I did not get from any web site. I simply did a very lengthy research on Bush, his family's history, his connection with the Bin Laden family, his most obvious reasons to go after Saddam (whom don't have nuclear weapons) rather than North Korea (who has nuclear weapons practically pointing at the U.S., the N.K. leader has even threatened the U.S. a couple of times now), and an in depth research into the taxing policies of this country (Rich put money of Tax Shelter, Middle Class pay the brunt of Taxes, Poor keep seeing subsidies like welfare diminish, etc. etc. etc.). So, I am very up to date with information that most people don't dig into until it's too late to do anything about it. Did I mention that Politicians in Washington give preferential "treatment" to the demands of major economic donors to their parties such as electric companies with Bush and his push to deregularize the electric industry in the U.S. and his proposal to did for Oil in a wildlife refuge in Alaska- although that was put down by congress, so surprisingly the case for Iraq (2nd largest oil reserves on earth)started to build up after that ruling, and Haliburton (Co-owned by the U.S. vice president) getting most of the rebuilding jobs in Iraq and over charging the government. So yeah, I know corruption exist in the DR, in US, everywhere. But Corruption is not worst in the DR than it is in the US. Its just that the US has more ways of hiding it and the DR doesnt. Oh yeah, most of the largest media companies (CNN, ABC NEWS, FOX) are owned by "politically frendly corporations" meaning corporations that give huge monetary gifts to the democratic and republican parties in the U.S.
 
T

Texas Bill

Silver
Feb 11, 2003
2,174
26
0
97
www.texasbill.com
Corruption in the Dominican Republic

Nal0whs said:
For many people on this board and elsewhere, it's hard for them to grasp how I come up with my political points of view. Well, it all goes down to this simple question. Why is it that the U.S. or the "Free World" thinks that a totalitarian or communist or non-democratic country is evil when in many democracies in the world, corruption is rife and yet, those democracy as accepted as being "good" countries. It doesn't makes much sense to me.

Many times with the DR, it seems that the country was much better off under Trujillo than under all the chopos ruling this nation. Under Trujillo if you didn't support him you were killed, but the economy was growing during his reign, people were in generally happy to know that they will live as long that they show some loyalty to the Jefe because they were not really starving to death. Peasants had land to farm on, city dwellers had free non-interruptive electricity, most had running water, and everything was priced in "cheles" or dominican cents, life was much better in Dominicana economically back then then now.

Now, the DR is a democratic country and yeah, no one gets killed for no reason (in theory), there is no electricity, many people can't live on their meagre wages, no one in the government have an ideology for the future of this country other than line their pockets with as much public money as possible while the country falls into a hell hole. Many times I ask my self whats better, bondage with economic security or freedom with economic insecurity?

The thing now is that many people (not just in the DR, but across Latin America) are now questioning whether democracy is the right thing for their countries. Notice how in Brazil they elected a President that had never been in public office of any kind, in Venezuela they voted a strong leftist into power-though they regret it now-, in Peru the same thing has been unfolding.

Tony C, what you quoted the first time I did not get from any web site. I simply did a very lengthy research on Bush, his family's history, his connection with the Bin Laden family, his most obvious reasons to go after Saddam (whom don't have nuclear weapons) rather than North Korea (who has nuclear weapons practically pointing at the U.S., the N.K. leader has even threatened the U.S. a couple of times now), and an in depth research into the taxing policies of this country (Rich put money of Tax Shelter, Middle Class pay the brunt of Taxes, Poor keep seeing subsidies like welfare diminish, etc. etc. etc.). So, I am very up to date with information that most people don't dig into until it's too late to do anything about it. Did I mention that Politicians in Washington give preferential "treatment" to the demands of major economic donors to their parties such as electric companies with Bush and his push to deregularize the electric industry in the U.S. and his proposal to did for Oil in a wildlife refuge in Alaska- although that was put down by congress, so surprisingly the case for Iraq (2nd largest oil reserves on earth)started to build up after that ruling, and Haliburton (Co-owned by the U.S. vice president) getting most of the rebuilding jobs in Iraq and over charging the government. So yeah, I know corruption exist in the DR, in US, everywhere. But Corruption is not worst in the DR than it is in the US. Its just that the US has more ways of hiding it and the DR doesnt. Oh yeah, most of the largest media companies (CNN, ABC NEWS, FOX) are owned by "politically frendly corporations" meaning corporations that give huge monetary gifts to the democratic and republican parties in the U.S.
Click to expand...

Why don't you take the advise of Robert and take all your stupidity elsewhere along with your flawed "research" ???
This thread is about "Corruption in the Dominican Republic" and NOT a forum for your anti American propaganda BS!
You get the drift???
If you don't, then you're just as stupid as your comments indicate you are.

Now, let's get this thread back on track and forget abput "First World" corruption and the like!

Texas Bill
 
NALs

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,482
3,186
113
I'm sorry if any one reading any of my coments have felt insulted or demized in any way. That is not my intention. I simply post my points of view on things and my knowledge of how the world works in our modern gobalized planet. I understand many people just don't like to hear about the real possibilities until it's too late. Look at Hippo, anyone that knows dominican politics could have told the Dominicans that the current party would screw the country up, but no one listen, and look at the country today. So, again I am sorry if anyone has felt any animosity towards my coments. I always thought this was a civilized board where I could express my opinions with out being personally attacked by anyone else, after all, check all my posts and you'll see that this "stupid guy" respects the rules of this boards of keeping things in general rather than personal. But "I'm the stupid one here" so, next time I'll simply write what everyone wants to hear, I'll be like the politicians of all democracies in the world. Say a bunch of bulls**t during the campaign, then screw everyone once in power. I really thought there were people here that were worthy of having a coversation with. But I'm the "stupid one" so what would I know, right Texas Bill? Oops, I made it personal.
 
O

Ogre of the Caribbean

Bronze
Sep 20, 2003
1,217
44
48
i think tony c hit the nail on the head about the united states and corruption. we have a certain degree of corruption in the U.S., but not the kind that affects people in their everyday life. i have never had to pay a bribe in the united states in my entire life . i have had to pay bribes in other countries to get along down the road. american is not a corrupt society where corruption is imbedded at all levels of society. in many latin american, africian, and eastern european countries, it is a fact of daily life.

trujillo was a brutal dictator. but, he ruled at a time when latin america was dominated by dictators.(batista, peron,somoza, etc) the difference between trujillo and other dictators is that trujillo actually improved the nation he ruled over. he built roads, ports, bridges, a modern infastructure. he built a state of the art sugar refinery that was one of the largest in the world. the electricty was always on and the water was actually drinkable. the civil service was efficent,hard working, and there was little corruption among government workers.(with the exception of trujillo and his family) trujillo would fire any civil servant he caught being slow or inefficent on the job. the police and army were squared away. granted , they were an insturment of repression against potential threats and enemies, but they did maintain strict order and crime was extremely low.

trujillo did steal a lot of money for himself, but not so much as to cripple his nations economy, infanstructure, or government services. that was the big difference between trujillo and thugs like papa doc who looted his own country and ran haiti completely into the ground.

president meija has robbed his country to the point were it endangers the future of his own nation. trujillo did not do that. he did many bad things, really awful things,i am not a defender of trujillo's cruelty, but he did leave a modern and efficient nation behind him. also, trujillo paid off the nations national debt, unlike meija, who has a least doubled it in 3 years.

i don't think dictatorship will necessarily save the DR. trujillo had a peticular personality that balanced out corruption and re- investment that no other 3rd world dictator in latin america had. the DR needs a president with a severly disciplined, hard working personality like trujillo had. it is not necessary to be cruel to be effective. but, one needs to be hard nosed, use the legitimate means avalibale to punish corruption(trial and lengthy jail sentences, plus the state seizure of stolen money) i don't know if anyone in the DR's political arena is like that.
 
Last edited:
NALs

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,482
3,186
113
Thank You Joel Pacheco

For responding to my way of thought in a professional and dignified manner. You just proved to me that there are dignified people with whom I can have a dignified, professional, and respectable conversation with, even if I may not agree on the subject. Also, your way of thought about the DR, Corruption, Dictatorship, Democracy is the same one I have, though it might not have seem through my post. The only big difference, is that I have lost hope based on the last 40 years of Democracy the Dominican Republic has had. It appears that for every 1 step forward, the country takes 4 steps backwards. It doesn't makes sense and doesn't go with the ideology of what a democracy should be or with the ideology of developed countries defending whats right and justified, but kind of accepting a corrupt democracy thats more or less no good. I'll leave it at that.

Thank You again for being a professional when it comes to expressing ones views over anothers. I hope you'll respond to other post I make before less tolerant people (very undemocratic) do in the future. Have a nice day!
 
A

andy a

Bronze
Feb 23, 2002
532
0
0
"...NOT a forum for your anti American propaganda BS!"

But another place nearby is. There was even a post about Cuba today, so why don't all the anti-Americanistas take their bodies and souls (including internet forum postings) there.

At least while in Cuba, one can get away from American influence, including its protective umbrella.

Who knows, with things heating up both in the DR and in Haiti (again), US intervention might even be a remote possibility. Why take a chance being in the DR?

Concerning corruption in the DR, it has to be greatly reduced before meaningful advances can occur. In previous threads, I have said that I thought that Finland's fantastic success has been based upon honesty, pride, and hard work. I have been extremely fortunate to have witnessed some of it first hand.
 
NALs

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,482
3,186
113
People actually think that I am an anti-american? All I am saying is due to extensive research with alot of internet searching, time devoted in the library, and talking with as many politically motivated people in local government and state government with whom I have connections with. I'm not an anti-american, in contrary, I am concerned with the way things are being run in the U.S. the last decade or so. But enough about America, this forum is about the DR. I will not be posting anything else on this thread due to it's tendency of expanding well beyond the actual topic, and I would not like this thread to be closed down. It would be unjust for the thread starter. Thats a very democratic move of my, being tolerant! Have a nice day!
 
T

Texas Bill

Silver
Feb 11, 2003
2,174
26
0
97
www.texasbill.com
Nal0whs said:
People actually think that I am an anti-american? All I am saying is due to extensive research with alot of internet searching, time devoted in the library, and talking with as many politically motivated people in local government and state government with whom I have connections with. I'm not an anti-american, in contrary, I am concerned with the way things are being run in the U.S. the last decade or so. But enough about America, this forum is about the DR. I will not be posting anything else on this thread due to it's tendency of expanding well beyond the actual topic, and I would not like this thread to be closed down. It would be unjust for the thread starter. Thats a very democratic move of my, being tolerant! Have a nice day!
Click to expand...

Now you have the right idea!
However, I re-submit that your research is severly flawed and skewed toward negativism about what you perceive to be the 'norm' of politics in the US.

Notwithstanding, the elite of the DR, the people themselves are a very selfserving group as a whole and thus have evolved a corrupt manner of governing and doing business. I don't feel that statement is far off the mark and if it is, I will certainly be the first to apologize for offending.

I'll leave it at that and let the marbles roll into whatever corner appropriate.

Texas Bill
 
B

BushBaby

Silver
Jan 1, 2002
3,829
329
0
79
www.casabush.org
Thank you, Samiam

I punched in my cedula number & up came "this citizen could not be found", which I suppose means no one else is using my number to get a voting card. Am I right in not feeling entirely convinced?
By the way, & as a small reminder, any examples of electoral fraud/corruption would be gratefully received for onward transmission before this thread gets closed!
Ginnie
 
P

Pib

Goddess
Jan 1, 2002
3,668
20
38
www.dominicancooking.com
BushBaby said:
I punched in my cedula number & up came "this citizen could not be found", which I suppose means no one else is using my number to get a voting card. Am I right in not feeling entirely convinced?
By the way, & as a small reminder, any examples of electoral fraud/corruption would be gratefully received for onward transmission before this thread gets closed!
Ginnie
Click to expand...
Don't worry. Nobody will vote with your cedula, it would have come up in that list when you punched the numbers. Mine did. :)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom