NYTimes Article, is the DR seeing more poor Haitians?

ltsnyder

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Jun 4, 2003
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The NY Times published an article that Haiti is spiraling into a state (i.e. condition) that is even more poor than it already is. Is this effecting the DR by seeing more Poor Haitians with out work permits in the DR?

Is the NY Times article missguided? or is this a state of condition due to the armed struggle that still continues. Evidently the "rebels" (i.e. the force that liberated Haiti) are still "purifying" thier areas from Lavalas members, and are still in charge in the north of the country.

Here is the article (in this case you need to register yourself for free before viewing the article):

Deepening Poverty Breeds Anger and Desperation in Haiti

-Lee
 

deelt

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Mar 23, 2004
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Will it affect DR, yes but it will affect the US more since more people in general will try to excape the island. In attending some of the dialogues within the int'l community I find a dichatomy between the perceptions of the diplomats and those of the grassroots ngos. It's very interesting.

At the end of the day what I see is a catch-22. The position of the Open Society Institute said it best in my humbl opinion: The Int'l financial institutions SAY they will "support" who ever ends on top, but will not help the rebels disarm and they will not give money. Now you go figure...
At the end of the day...everyone was pessimistic on the prospects for Haiti's future...it's hard not to be.


ltsnyder said:
The NY Times published an article that Haiti is spiraling into a state (i.e. condition) that is even more poor than it already is. Is this effecting the DR by seeing more Poor Haitians with out work permits in the DR?

Is the NY Times article missguided? or is this a state of condition due to the armed struggle that still continues. Evidently the "rebels" (i.e. the force that liberated Haiti) are still "purifying" thier areas from Lavalas members, and are still in charge in the north of the country.

Here is the article (in this case you need to register yourself for free before viewing the article):

Deepening Poverty Breeds Anger and Desperation in Haiti

-Lee
 

Larry

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Mar 22, 2002
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deelt said:
Will it affect DR, yes but it will affect the US more since more people in general will try to excape the island. In attending some of the dialogues within the int'l community I find a dichatomy between the perceptions of the diplomats and those of the grassroots ngos. It's very interesting.

At the end of the day what I see is a catch-22. The position of the Open Society Institute said it best in my humbl opinion: The Int'l financial institutions SAY they will "support" who ever ends on top, but will not help the rebels disarm and they will not give money. Now you go figure...
At the end of the day...everyone was pessimistic on the prospects for Haiti's future...it's hard not to be.

No, it will not affect the US more. The US is a country of 250 million people. What is the population of the DR ( I don't know). People wash up daily on US shores by the hundreds from countries like Haiti. They either get deported or wind up with some menial job like washing dishes for 6 dollars per hour. At least at that rate, they can feed themselves in the United States. You get a hundred thousand penniless Hatians running over the border into the DR and you have a different story. They will only add to the DR's economic problems. Not to mention they are spooky looking.
Larry
 

deelt

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Mar 23, 2004
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Good Point

I guess I should have expressed myself a little different. I was going on the assumption that if things stay as is (meaning Hipolito gets reelected) then BOTH Dominicans and Haitians will be trying to escape the misery. You are right that on a national scale this may not impact the US, but it will on the local scale. Immigrants tend to congregate in certain cities that are already overburdened such as NYC. If immigrants were to spread out then achieving the $6/hr can be possible but from an inner city perspective all I see is widespread unemployment and overburden systems that tend to practice political exclusion. My family and I, as a whole, are facing bringing over 6 to 13 people and we just can't do it. We are barely making ends meet as is. Yet almost all are assuming 1) we can afford to bring them because "we are rich" and 2) they will be come instantaneously rich upon stepping on US soil. I keep with my mantra, the US Dominican community sends $2 billion/year to DR and lives on $11,000 per capita. If we are to avoid the pitfalls that have affected some PR and African-American communities then more needs to be done to construct stronger and legitimate goverments in La Hispanola.
D

Larry said:
No, it will not affect the US more. The US is a country of 250 million people. What is the population of the DR ( I don't know). People wash up daily on US shores by the hundreds from countries like Haiti. They either get deported or wind up with some menial job like washing dishes for 6 dollars per hour. At least at that rate, they can feed themselves in the United States. You get a hundred thousand penniless Hatians running over the border into the DR and you have a different story. They will only add to the DR's economic problems. Not to mention they are spooky looking.
Larry
 

frank alvarez

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Apr 13, 2004
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big problem!

Larry said:
No, it will not affect the US more. The US is a country of 250 million people. What is the population of the DR ( I don't know). People wash up daily on US shores by the hundreds from countries like Haiti. They either get deported or wind up with some menial job like washing dishes for 6 dollars per hour. At least at that rate, they can feed themselves in the United States. You get a hundred thousand penniless Hatians running over the border into the DR and you have a different story. They will only add to the DR's economic problems. Not to mention they are spooky looking.
Larry

Yes, absolutely that it is a big problem for the DR. Obviously, it's a lot easier to stroll across a poorly guarded border than to get in a boat to the USA. The DR has a population of about 9 million and Haiti has at least that many people in half the territory and 95% of it has had all forests leveled for the quick solution of charcoal-energy use. Haiti is a country that has never worked, really, and it is a mirror image of most black African countries, unfortunately, with the constant change of governments, uprisings, killings, extreme poverty, etc., etc. :alien:

The big problem for the DR is that both countries are totally different in culture, language, religion and customs (probably the only sharing of an island by completely different peoples in the planet) and Haitians are very different and stand out. They are discriminated against, of course, and are used mostly as cheap labor, just as all illegal immigrants in the developed countries. They come across with ease paying their way to the corrupt Dominican government officials or military posts at border crossings. They are a heavy burden for the already lacking poor services provided by the Dominican government and can be found all over the country. A huge invasion! :angry:
 

deelt

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Mar 23, 2004
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I think we are a lot more alike than Dominicans would like to believe. This I know from my experience growing up with Haitians in NYC. A good book that discusses these very similaries is "When the Cocks Fight" by Michelle Wucker.
-D
frank alvarez said:
The big problem for the DR is that both countries are totally different in culture, language, religion and customs (probably the only sharing of an island by completely different peoples in the planet) and Haitians are very different and stand out.
 

Forbeca

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Mar 5, 2003
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Forgive me deelt but I have not read that book or any other book relating to haitian history etc. nor do I have haitian friends or know anything about them. I am a little curious about this statement and, if you don't mind, would like you to please list the ways in which haitians and dominicans are alike.
Thanks.



deelt said:
I think we are a lot more alike than Dominicans would like to believe. This I know from my experience growing up with Haitians in NYC. A good book that discusses these very similaries is "When the Cocks Fight" by Michelle Wucker.
-D
 

nycVu

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Mar 30, 2004
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Larry said:
Not to mention they are spooky looking.
Larry

And what the hell does THAT mean? :rolleyes:

Anyrate, the economic and polical turmoil which affects Haiti can be traced directly to its history. Soon after gaining independence, they were cut off politically and financially from France and the US. While other countries and territories in the Caribbean continued to flourish (due in large part to their continued practice of slavery), Haitians suffered yet they were free from the chains and cruelty of slavery. How ironic...

I'm afraid the UN and the US should not continue to stand still as this situation spirals out of control. For the stability of the region (ie, DR) it is in the U.S. and the UN's best interest to promote realistic political and economic agendas and not more idle promises.
 

deelt

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Mar 23, 2004
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Well said!

You are right on point historically and politically. And let's us not forget that prior to Haiti's freedom it was the richest port in the world.
D
nycVu said:
And what the hell does THAT mean? :rolleyes:

Anyrate, the economic and polical turmoil which affects Haiti can be traced directly to its history. Soon after gaining independence, they were cut off politically and financially from France and the US. While other countries and territories in the Caribbean continued to flourish (due in large part to their continued practice of slavery), Haitians suffered yet they were free from the chains and cruelty of slavery. How ironic...

I'm afraid the UN and the US should not continue to stand still as this situation spirals out of control. For the stability of the region (ie, DR) it is in the U.S. and the UN's best interest to promote realistic political and economic agendas and not more idle promises.
 

frank alvarez

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shared responsibilities

nycVu said:
...I'm afraid the UN and the US should not continue to stand still as this situation spirals out of control. For the stability of the region (ie, DR) it is in the U.S. and the UN's best interest to promote realistic political and economic agendas and not more idle promises.

Unfortunately, the rumor mill in the DR has always been that the US, France and Canada, the traditional 'helpers' of the Haitians, have it in their minds to solve the problem by letting the DR take the brunt of the illegal immigration and all the negatives this represents for this struggling, developing country.
In any case, they sure have made a mess of things!
 

nycVu

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deelt said:
And let's us not forget that prior to Haiti's freedom it was the richest port in the world.
D


Without question. And yet at the same time, Haiti's independence was seen as a threat to the institution of slavery and so they were marginalized when in fact, they should have been supported and even championed as an independent republic. But to have done so at the time, the US would have had to acknowledge that their ongoing participation in "the peculiar institution" was morally and politically reprehensible. :dead:
 

deelt

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Mar 23, 2004
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Forbeca

If you get the chance you should really read that book. It is not about Haitian history rather discusses the (sadly often exploitative) relationship between Haiti and DR as a whole. It's from a more objective point of view. Personally I don' think you can trully separate the histories of the two countries. They are inherently intermingled. It's like trying to separate the history of Mexico and the US, post-Manifest Destiny (1840s). You can't b/c they feed off each other. History is a story written by the winners with a winner's perspective. Inherently biased. Thus, this is why reading multiple perspectives should be required.

Similarities, are in the musical beat, food (not all but the main staples), patua aspect of the languages, penchant for expressing certain expressions, Yoruba-based religious practices, literature styles.

The main distinction is the language. The rest IMHO is socialization and survival of the fittest. It's like being told that you won't amount to much every single day of your life...after a while you start to believe it unless you are of a strong mind and heart.

D

Forbeca said:
Forgive me deelt but I have not read that book or any other book relating to haitian history etc. nor do I have haitian friends or know anything about them. I am a little curious about this statement and, if you don't mind, would like you to please list the ways in which haitians and dominicans are alike.
Thanks.
 
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Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
4,821
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Great responses.

Deelt,

I am not getting in this discussion for diverse reasons but I read all your posts and I can clearly see that you know your stuff and that you have obviously educated yourself via observation, reading and maybe interaction with Haitians whereas most people just comment on the subject based on what they hear from others (after all it's easier that way). I am more your style- read, observe and then deduce.

Te felicito desde el alma. Tus respuestas son muy valiosas y me es obvio que eres una persona de gran calidad humana.

Suerte & Chao,

LDG


deelt said:
Forbeca

If you get the chance you should really read that book. It is not about Haitian history rather discusses the (sadly often exploitative) relationship between Haiti and DR as a whole. It's from a more objective point of view. Personally I don' think you can trully separate the histories of the two countries. They are inherently intermingled. It's like trying to separate the history of Mexico and the US, post-Manifest Destiny (1840s). You can't b/c they feed off each other. History is a story written by the winners with a winner's perspective. Inherently biased. Thus, this is why reading multiple perspectives should be required.

Similarities, are in the musical beat, food (not all but the main staples), patua aspect of the languages, penchant for expressing certain expressions, Yoruba-based religious practices, literature styles.

The main distinction is the language. The rest IMHO is socialization and survival of the fittest. It's like being told that you won't amount to much every single day of your life...after a while you start to believe it unless you are of a strong mind and heart.

D
 
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NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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We are all humans!!

Of course people of different cultures will have similarities, in this case Haiti and the Dominican Republic, we are all humans. However, its the little difference that make the big difference in the cross cultural aspect of things. Haiti and the Dominican Republic are as much alike as they are different.

"Likeness" (sorry for inventing this word) between Haiti and the DR include same island, similar history, and some other minor stuffs like the passion for cockfighting in both countries, etc.

The differences are what make each country what it is, otherwise the entire island would have been one unified country, right!

Haiti speaks French-creole, have a very strong african element in it's culture (the most africanize country outside of Africa), its something like 99%black with the 1% left being mulattos, have about 3/4 of its population in abject poverty and about 28% in "normal" poverty with the rest being super rich. Smallest economy in the hemisphere and it has been shrinking non stop since 1997, and many other.

Dominican Republic speaks Spanish, have a very strong european element in it's culture, its 3/4 mulattos, 16% white, and the rest blacks (excluding Haitians in the DR), have about 8% of its population in abject poverty and about 52% in "normal" poverty with half those getting weekly checks from family in NYC, 30% are middle class, and 10% rich. It has the largest economy in the Central American/Caribbean reagion, the largest tourist industry in the Caribbean and growing, love of baseball, and many other.

My point is this, when people want to find similarities between cultures, they will always find them because we are all (the entire planets homosapiens) are all humans. However, its the minor similarities that makes the millions of cultures, hundreds of countries, billions of individuals who they are.

And about my opinion on the Haitian thing in the DR, yes, it is a problem that will only get worst. The best thing happening from abroad towards Hispaniola is that project sponsored by the European Union for creating free-trade zones along the border, other than that it's a sad landscape. Haiti has always been seen (and probably is) a threat to anything dominican. In the past it was a life or death deal with constant bloody invasions, today its a cultural deal. The Dominican culture is one that can be very easily influenced by outsiders, the more Haitians enter the DR, the more Haitianize the DR will become and the less Dominicanidad will survive. With this in mind, it is safe to say that the economic stability, cultural vitality, and overall sovereignity of the Dominican Republic is under threat from Haiti over the long run. In my opinion, the only thing that would create the U.S. and Europe to reconsider their "let the DR and Haiti doom each other" plan is to increase the amount of either white or well off people in the DR and/or Haiti. It would be ideal if the white/affluent number of people would increase. I am a strong believer that race is still a major player in decisions worldwide and that money is a close second. Lets not be oblivious to reality, this is the truth.

Other than that, the DR is doomed. Of course, if I keep rambling on I could also say that Puerto Rico could see its stability threatened in the long run too. The poorer Haiti gets, the more will cross into the DR. The more in the DR, the poorer the DR gets, the more will swim to PR. The more enter PR, the darker and poorer PR will get, the more incentives for the U.S. to either ditch PR, otherwise this problem will infiltrate into the American mainland and uncle Sam don't want that, because if Mainland USA was under any uncontrollable threat from Haiti's economy disaster, the USA would have been shifting the billions of dollars of aid to Haiti and made sure that capitalism survives in Haiti. But since that is not the case, for now at least, the U.S. is not interested in such proposal, so the brunt falls on the DR. These are my 2cents into this aspect. Feel free to either praise me or criticize, but please don't offend, thank you in advance.
 

DRsScarface

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Feb 26, 2004
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What do you mean?

Deelt,

what do you mean when you say yoruba-based religions?

Isn't the DR 80%+ Catholic and the rest is mostly of some other form of christianity? I can agree more with your other statements about music, staple foods etc. but i know for a fact that vodoo type of religions are not largely accepted by the population or government and are largely considered "brujer?a" and devil worshipping.
 

Narcosis

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Dec 18, 2003
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Gee Deelt, what insight! How similar where you guys? did you guys take the same trains and buses or was it the fact you were both on welfare?

Check back when you have a clue.

Please stop following your stupid NGO/UN agenda and quit trying to convince everyone including Dominicans on the island we are the same as Haitians!
 

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
4,821
766
113
One last thing and then I will only read the discussions:

Has anyone read the book:

EL Pasado Dominicano by Frank Moya Pons?

It's interesting as it discusses the Dominican past from a political, cultural, social and ethinic perspective. Always good for controversial issues like these especially when everyone has a different point of view and mostly not factual. Just wondering. I was glad to find a copy in Sto.D in 2001 although the edition is old history does not change every 2/3 years. It sheds some light on Dominican-Haitian relations.


deelt said:
Forbeca

If you get the chance you should really read that book. It is not about Haitian history rather discusses the (sadly often exploitative) relationship between Haiti and DR as a whole. It's from a more objective point of view. Personally I don' think you can trully separate the histories of the two countries. They are inherently intermingled. It's like trying to separate the history of Mexico and the US, post-Manifest Destiny (1840s). You can't b/c they feed off each other. History is a story written by the winners with a winner's perspective. Inherently biased. Thus, this is why reading multiple perspectives should be required.

Similarities, are in the musical beat, food (not all but the main staples), patua aspect of the languages, penchant for expressing certain expressions, Yoruba-based religious practices, literature styles.

The main distinction is the language. The rest IMHO is socialization and survival of the fittest. It's like being told that you won't amount to much every single day of your life...after a while you start to believe it unless you are of a strong mind and heart.

D
 

Forbeca

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Mar 5, 2003
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Thank you D. This summer I will certainly make it a point to read "When the Cocks Fight" by Michelle Wucker. I guess my curiosity stems from the fact that most dominicans fear haiti could be such an integral part of our culture and that we would lose our own values in the process. I don't see that happening, but like I stated before I know nothing of this controversy, not yet anyway. Thanks again.
 

deelt

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Mar 23, 2004
987
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I like you already...

I couldn't have said it better myself. Thank you.
d
nycVu said:
Without question. And yet at the same time, Haiti's independence was seen as a threat to the institution of slavery and so they were marginalized when in fact, they should have been supported and even championed as an independent republic. But to have done so at the time, the US would have had to acknowledge that their ongoing participation in "the peculiar institution" was morally and politically reprehensible. :dead:
 

deelt

Bronze
Mar 23, 2004
987
2
0
The way Dominicans practice Catholicism is suspect. Santa Barbara, Santa Ana, etc. all have directed correlated attributes (colors, "powers", target audience) to spirits within the Yoruba based religion. The idea that our Candelo is their Chango is a difference of labels. While Dominicans SAY they are practicing Catholics they in fact all have strong belief in superstitions, etc. Even Balaguer had his little charms accessible to him. Same as Truijillo was part Haitian and am sure was exposed to these types of practices; the man powdered his face to look whiter for christsakes!

The process of slavery involved conversion to Chrisitianity. The way most slaves rebutted against this was by using the given Catholic saint and super imposing their own beliefs. It hasbecome so intermingled and so mainstream that people can no longer tell the difference. A strategic practice done by the Church is taking pagan events and giving them church blessings. Do you see Carnival as a catholic staple. It is not. Yet is integral to how we see ourselves as Dominicans/caribbeans regardless where we are in the world.

-D

DRsScarface said:
Deelt,

what do you mean when you say yoruba-based religions?

Isn't the DR 80%+ Catholic and the rest is mostly of some other form of christianity? I can agree more with your other statements about music, staple foods etc. but i know for a fact that vodoo type of religions are not largely accepted by the population or government and are largely considered "brujer?a" and devil worshipping.