Policia Nacional

simpson Homer · Oct 12, 2004

When the action is going to stop with Dominican Police Killing innocent people?
reading an article from The Dominican News Paper Listin Diario is hard to believe what's going on. A 15 years old girl was wounded almost to dead by an Drunk armed police. Way to go ahh! Those cases never are going to end even worse there is not justice for then. People better go out with bullet proof jacket.

What's going to happen with this police?
Question that never has answer positive answer for the community?

Spanish link

http://www.listindiario.com/cuerpos/republica/rep12.htm

what a shame!

bienamor · Oct 12, 2004

Nothing until

simpson Homer said:
When the action is going to stop with Dominican Police Killing innocent people?
reading an article from The Dominican News Paper Listin Diario is hard to believe what's going on. A 15 years old girl was wounded almost to dead by an Drunk armed police. Way to go ahh! Those cases never are going to end even worse there is not justice for then. People better go out with bullet proof jacket.

What's going to happen with this police?
Question that never has answer positive answer for the community?

Spanish link

http://www.listindiario.com/cuerpos/republica/rep12.htm

what a shame!

Nothing ever is going to happen until they start holding them responsible for their actions!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :bandit:

MrMike · Oct 12, 2004

They kill alot of guilty people too

The application of the famous latin american "runnaway law" is pretty much the only justice this country ever sees.

Maybe someday the criminal justice system here will be elevated above joke status, but until then I's just as soon the NP continue to gun down delinquents for the time being, at least that way we know the criminals are the ones with the uniforms on. It's probably the only useful thing they do.

stallion · Dec 26, 2004

MrMike said:
The application of the famous latin american "runnaway law" is pretty much the only justice this country ever sees.

Maybe someday the criminal justice system here will be elevated above joke status, but until then I's just as soon the NP continue to gun down delinquents for the time being, at least that way we know the criminals are the ones with the uniforms on. It's probably the only useful thing they do.

The cops in DR are the most corrupt cops in the world. They are violent and aggressive. i think someone should send Presidente Leonel a message. I think the Cops improvement should be on his #1 agenda list.

DunHill · Dec 26, 2004

stallion said:
The cops in DR are the most corrupt cops in the world.

Yes they are
Most common reason, they are HUNGRY, their wife and kids are HUNGRY, unpaid salaries etc, just think what: would you do in this kind of situation?

stallion said:
They are violent and aggressive.

You have good and bad cops, just as all over the world, only here are a few more bad cops.
In the 5 years i live here (san Pedro de Macoris-BB and Juan Dolio) i never had a real bad-cop experience

stallion said:
i think someone should send Presidente Leonel a message.

Don't think that it would do any good, L likes to be frontpage news, and fixing the bad-cop situation is not really frontpagenews but hard work.

stallion said:
I think the Cops improvement should be on his #1 agenda list.

see above, will be #9999999 after fixing the old bad roads.

Don Juan · Dec 27, 2004

Thiefs, goons, oppressors and scofflaws........

MrMike said:
The application of the famous latin american "runnaway law" is pretty much the only justice this country ever sees.

Maybe someday the criminal justice system here will be elevated above joke status, but until then I's just as soon the NP continue to gun down delinquents for the time being, at least that way we know the criminals are the ones with the uniforms on. It's probably the only useful thing they do.

...Is pretty much what the PN. is composed of. A friend once said that collectively, these SOB's raked-in billions RD$ a year from drugs,extortion and downright thievery. What's even worse is that they can kill you and me with impunity! These mothers are above the law and they know it! I can't think of what could possibly stop them. Here's hoping Leonel can have the "aguacates" to at least fire if not prosecute these MF's and put them away for a very long time....I can dream, can't I?

badpiece33 · Dec 27, 2004

How many times have you been personally robbed or beaten by these so called police thugs? Everyone is quick to throw stones here but let me hear some personal stories not just newspaper articles or a friend of a friend told me this and that. I am not saying that the police in DR are not somewhat corrupt but making them out to be assasins is just crazy.
Badpiece

Chirimoya · Dec 27, 2004

Not a pretty picture,

according to the US State Department:

Just a few extracts:

The police and, to a lesser degree, the military tortured, beat, or otherwise abused detainees and prisoners.

Police arbitrarily arrested and detained suspects and suspects' relatives.

The authorities sometimes infringed on citizens' privacy rights, and police entered private homes without judicial orders.

Police on several occasions used excessive force to disperse demonstrators.

There were no reports of political killings; however, members of the security forces committed many killings that were unlawful, unwarranted, or involved excessive use of force. The National Commission on Human Rights reported approximately 250 extrajudicial killings, the National Police reported approximately 150, and the Dominican Committee for Human Rights reported 292 such killings.

In the majority of killings by police, the police stated that the deaths resulted from an exchange of gunfire in the course of an arrest, requiring officers to act in self-defense. A number of eyewitness accounts matched police reports; others did not. In a few cases, the police rearranged the crime scene to make it appear as if deadly force had been required for self-defense. For example, in September police officer Cristino Alvarez Ventura killed a youth in a case of mistaken identity. Realizing he had killed the wrong person, Alvarez planted a revolver in the victim?s hand to back his claim of self-defense. Public outcry prompted an investigation by a police commission, which determined that Alvarez was the sole person responsible for the killing. The case is expected to be tried in a civilian, rather than a police or military, court.

In September, police officer Rubio Blondy and another officer killed a 22-year-old in another case of alleged mistaken identity. According to relatives, the victim showed his identity card to police officers before being shot while having a snack at a cafeteria in Santo Domingo.

In October, two off-duty police officers, Abel Garcia and Luis Castro Concepcion, shot and killed an advertising agent in San Francisco de Macoris.

The new National Police Chief, appointed in 2002, submitted several cases of human rights abuses committed by members of the National Police and armed forces to civilian criminal courts. The National Commission on Human Rights reported that in the first 11 months of year, authorities remanded 114 members of the National Police to courts on accusations of extrajudicial killings. Of these, 79 were remanded to civilian courts.

Human rights organizations stated that the police employed unwarranted deadly force less often against criminal suspects than in previous years, although uniformed vigilantism persisted on a less-than-deadly level. Criminals who refused to pay police "commissions"--bribes to ignore criminal activity--were sometimes beaten or shot in an appendage rather than killed. The lack of qualified investigators and the nontransparent conduct of investigations of killings in "exchanges of gunfire" resulted in impunity in a number of cases.

Private Eduardo Ortiz Delgadillo, who allegedly killed a bus driver in March 2002, was free on bail at year's end. His case was in the 7th Penal Court in Santo Domingo, but a hearing had not yet been scheduled.

Police officer Carlos Manuel Ramirez Herrera remained in Najayo prison for the April 2002 killing of a youth during a protest. His trial was pending in the San Cristobal court of instruction.

There was no further action in the case of the military officers accused of killing Reformist Social Christian Party (PRSC) activists in May 2002.

Police lieutenant Juan Bautista Berroa and his accomplices remained in a prison in San Francisco de Macoris for an unlawful killing in May 2002; their trial remained pending.

In February, a court sentenced police officer Demetrio Mario Leonardo to 12 years in prison and ordered him to pay $60,000 (3 million pesos) in damages for an unlawful killing committed in 2001.

In November, the trial began of police Private Francisco "Tyson" and codefendant Sergeant Medina Medina, charged with a 2001 killing. A civil court ordered Tyson jailed at the Special Operations Camp in Manoguayabo; Sergeant Medina Medina was free on bail.

Pedro Encarnacion Baez, charged with the 2001 killing of Carmelo del Rosario, has been free on bail since December 2002. His case was assigned to the Court of Instruction in La Romana.

Lambada · Dec 28, 2004

I totally agree that the picture is not pretty, Chiri, but as I'm not too impressed by the painter either, I'm wondering if there is another source you know of & in which I might have more faith (than the State Dept.)?

NALs · Dec 28, 2004

I agree the PN is pretty corrupt, but common, don't paint all of them with the same brush.

There are a few who are actually doing their job, because they actually love their job - despite not being paid well!

Don't paint everyone with the same brush. After all, American cops (especially those from Los Angeles, New Jersey, and New York among others) have a good reputation, despite the many sexual and racial profiles that are discovered every year!

Wasn't a Haitian once beaten by a police at the police precinct. I remember being in New York during a trip and being shocked to hear such news. What about that African guy who was shot over 10 times?? Or the racial profiling that was found evident in New Jersey cops??

Forgot the cops who beat the crap of the Illegal Mexicans who crossed into California on a falling apart pick up in the late 1990s?? Or maybe the incident of the LA police beating Rodney King (I think that's his name) after stopping him for whatever reason???

US cops still have a good reputation overall. People are not painting them all with the same brush, as such, do the same with Dominican cops.

Some are bad apples, but many are not rotten.

Besides, given that AMET is actually stopping people and giving tickets from traffic violations and not accepting bribes simply shows that a good police force is possible in this country, when there is a will...

Don Juan · Dec 28, 2004

You want a personal story?..........

badpiece33 said:
How many times have you been personally robbed or beaten by these so called police thugs? Everyone is quick to throw stones here but let me hear some personal stories not just newspaper articles or a friend of a friend told me this and that. I am not saying that the police in DR are not somewhat corrupt but making them out to be assasins is just crazy.
Badpiece

......Well, I'll tell you one.!! Back in 1989, I went home for two weeks to visit my folks in east SD. You know how it is, you have to go see every single one of your relatives and do sight-seeing before flying back. One afternoon, I went to visit my aunt and cousins who lived about two miles from my folks. We had a good time chatting and quaffing a few presidentes, we forgot how late it was, (about 9:00 pm.), and they offered to give me a ride home but the car would not start so I decided to walk home via a well lit avenue. As I went pass a construction zone, I was comfronted by a bunch of police in a jeepeta and asked what I was doing in the area. Before I could explain myself, I was grabbed and whacked with a wooden pole and thrown inside it. They immediately accuse me of "lurking with intent to steal" and told that if I didn't come up with a "substantial" sum of money, I would be taken to prison and beaten. I gave them all I had, about $500 pesos, but was told it wasn't enought so I was driven over to my old folks and under thread of sending me to prison, extorted from them whatever they had in the house which to this day was never told how much. I was let go after much pleading from my elderly parents. So you see Mr. badpiece, I consider myself very lucky I wasn't killed. You better pray it never happens to you. Anyone of us can end up as dead meat regarless of our status in DR society. My advice to all of you is not to walk alone late at nigh and be sure to carry enough $ for the bribe.......or who knows where you'll end up!

Texasfool · Dec 28, 2004

Nalwals travels continue, in nYC this time enroute from LA

Nal0whs said:
I agree the PN is pretty corrupt, but common, don't paint all of them with the same brush.

There are a few who are actually doing their job, because they actually love their job - despite not being paid well!

Don't paint everyone with the same brush. After all, American cops (especially those from Los Angeles, New Jersey, and New York among others) have a good reputation, despite the many sexual and racial profiles that are discovered every year!

Wasn't a Haitian once beaten by a police at the police precinct. I remember being in New York during a trip and being shocked to hear such news. What about that African guy who was shot over 10 times?? Or the racial profiling that was found evident in New Jersey cops??

Forgot the cops who beat the crap of the Illegal Mexicans who crossed into California on a falling apart pick up in the late 1990s?? Or maybe the incident of the LA police beating Rodney King (I think that's his name) after stopping him for whatever reason???

US cops still have a good reputation overall. People are not painting them all with the same brush, as such, do the same with Dominican cops.

Some are bad apples, but many are not rotten.

Besides, given that AMET is actually stopping people and giving tickets from traffic violations and not accepting bribes simply shows that a good police force is possible in this country, when there is a will...

Nalwal

I assume of course that you or a "friend" was present at each of these incidents, as you were in Kruger Park in Nairobi

You fail to recognize that when you read about these incidences in US Law Enforcement it is quite different from DR police because the evil doers were caught and punished, in other words held accountable for their actions unlike their Dominican counterparts

BTW, don't you ever tire of your fantasy world or do you think we all actually believe you experienced the silly propositions you continually put forth?

NALs · Dec 28, 2004

Texasfool said:
Nalwal

I assume of course that you or a "friend" was present at each of these incidents, as you were in Kruger Park in Nairobi

You fail to recognize that when you read about these incidences in US Law Enforcement it is quite different from DR police because the evil doers were caught and punished, in other words held accountable for their actions unlike their Dominican counterparts

BTW, don't you ever tire of your fantasy world or do you think we all actually believe you experienced the silly propositions you continually put forth?

No, but I do have Satelite TV and I do get CNN and FOX and all those other hurly burly of media sprouting from the US. So, I really don't see your case?

OJ Simpson is still free...

not all evil doers were punished in US....

And about my life, I careless what people believe. After all, whether they believe or not, I continue to live my life here in wonderful SDQ in Los Cacigascos in my beautiful house driving around in my Mercedes attending social gathering with well cultured and educated peoples and attending my business interest both here and abroad.

Believe what you want and disbelieve what you want! All I know is that this is my life and quite frankly, not everybody will like me for it.

Oh well, envy is the best way a person can show admiration for someone else.

mharshman · Dec 29, 2004

Nal0whs said:
No, but I do have Satelite TV and I do get CNN and FOX and all those other hurly burly of media sprouting from the US. So, I really don't see your case?

OJ Simpson is still free...

not all evil doers were punished in US....

And about my life, I careless what people believe. After all, whether they believe or not, I continue to live my life here in wonderful SDQ in Los Cacigascos in my beautiful house driving around in my Mercedes attending social gathering with well cultured and educated peoples and attending my business interest both here and abroad.

Believe what you want and disbelieve what you want! All I know is that this is my life and quite frankly, not everybody will like me for it.

Oh well, envy is the best way a person can show admiration for someone else.[/QUO

The Great Quote.

Living well is the best revenge.

Texasfool · Dec 29, 2004

voyeuristic dreams

Nal0whs said:
No, but I do have Satelite TV and I do get CNN and FOX and all those other hurly burly of media sprouting from the US. So, I really don't see your case?

OJ Simpson is still free...

Oh well, envy is the best way a person can show admiration for someone else.

I seem to forget which law enforcement agency Simpson worked for (The subject of your post, bad cops) and envy you, pleeeeeease. I realize you are a legend in your own mind, but fortunately it stops there

Were you not in NYC when the Haitian incident occurred, in Kruger park in Nairobi (Guess they moved it) Nalwal, we all realize 99% of your posts come from reading the net, your hyperlinks are dated, your bibliographies of supposed texts are laughable your descriptions easily reproduced from websites etc, who are you trying to fool? Not this "fool," I see through you more easily than the worst of con men

I also realize most people on this site cut you a lot of slack because they feel bad for you, but you only dig a deeper hole each time you pretend to be what you are not.

You claim to be a Dominican living in the DR (Where of course there are no blacks or whites, only mulattos), why not write of experiences you actually have had, ones that can not be so easily shown to be a false voyeuristic dream?

NALs · Dec 29, 2004

Were you not in NYC when the Haitian incident occurred

Listen, I go to the NYC area up to 4 times a year. I happened to be in Weschester county (Pound Ridge, NY to be exact) visit a friend of mine when the story broke.

in Kruger park in Nairobi (Guess they moved it) Nalwal

It was actually the Nairobi National Park in Nairobi, Kenya. I confused the name with Kruger National Park located in South Africa, near Johannesburg.

I suppose you have never confused the name of some places that you visited over 7 years ago???

we all realize 99% of your posts come from reading the net, your hyperlinks are dated, your bibliographies of supposed texts are laughable your descriptions easily reproduced from websites etc, who are you trying to fool? Not this "fool," I see through you more easily than the worst of con men

May God bless you. Critics are really something. Oh well, I guess this world could not be as exciting to live if there was no critic to stirr up the moment!

I also realize most people on this site cut you a lot of slack because they feel bad for you, but you only dig a deeper hole each time you pretend to be what you are not.

Funny, because even people who appear to be my enemies in public threads on DR1 have confessed to me to actually liking my postings in private PMs.

Maybe it has to do with the fact that in a private PM I treat people better than in Public threads because in a PM its only me and the person, rather than me and the person and 8,000 other lurkers.

There may be some people who truly dislike me here, but there are also many people who do put attention to some things I say. That is fine, I am not Jesus trying to make people believe in me, all I am doing is exercising my right to speak my mind.

If you have a problem with that, tough.

You claim to be a Dominican living in the DR (Where of course there are no blacks or whites, only mulattos), why not write of experiences you actually have had, ones that can not be so easily shown to be a false voyeuristic dream?

Why write about something people never show interest on. Quote a single incidence when a person on DR1 every asked me to write about an experience of my own.

Up to this moment, you have been the only one and that was only in criticism towards me.

I'll suggest you stop being so, how do I put it, irrational. Maybe you should just accept things as they are.

It would save you alot of time and energy instead of posting criticism of a man you have never in your life met or even consciously seen.

I say consciously, because many DR1 have starred right into my eyes in various occasions throught the DR and they don't recognize this guy is the one behind Nal0whs. The power of the media gallery...

So, please. Keep your worthless attempt at bashing me to yourself. If you want to bash somebody, do it to someone you know inside and out and not someone who may know more about you than you would feel comfortable with...

Texasfool · Dec 29, 2004

Juvenile musings

Nal0whs said:
So, please. Keep your worthless attempt at bashing me to yourself. If you want to bash somebody, do it to someone you know inside and out and not someone who may know more about you than you would feel comfortable with...

Why write about something people never show interest on. Quote a single incidence when a person on DR1 every asked me to write about an experience of my own.

Now that is valid. You at least admit NO ONE would have any interest in ANYTHING YOU have actually experienced or have personal knowledge of, I guess there is some truth in your ramblings after all

You have got to be kidding kid! I feel comfortable with anyone knowing anything about me, especially some punk who thinks he is "worldly"

My "worthless" attempts certainly seem to warrant "worthless" verbiage from yourself, or does the truth make you uncomfortable?

I have yet to see you post one remark of any incidental or current value, let alone provide an interesting concept

My guess would be that you are a College student trying to impress us "poor dumb" Gringos with your ability to surf the internet and post links, quote outdated info and most of all; love to see your words in print.

I assume this will be deleted, my mistake for verbally sparring with a juvenile

My apologies to the board owner as I expect and accept the fact this entire tirade should be deleted

NALs · Dec 29, 2004

You have got to be kidding kid! I feel comfortable with anyone knowing anything about me, especially some punk who thinks he is "worldly"

Kid? Ok, let's have it your way, but I never heard of a "kid" being a 33 year old man. But, if that is a "kid" for you, so be it.

My "worthless" attempts certainly seem to warrant "worthless" verbiage from yourself, or does the truth make you uncomfortable?

Actually, your worthless attempts are bringing me joy.

I'm actually laughing as I'm typing right now. It's just hallarious how a guy who points at me as a "worldly know it all person" is acting in such a way himself? I mean, do you Texasfool think that you are correct in anything you have posted here??

Think about it for a moment. Do you truly know to who you are talking to? Do you? Are you postively sure? Are you 100% secure? Can you prove it?

I have yet to see you post one remark of any incidental or current value, let alone provide an interesting concept

What exactly do you want to know? All you have to do is ask...

My guess would be that you are a College student trying to impress us "poor dumb" Gringos with your ability to surf the internet and post links, quote outdated info and most of all; love to see your words in print.

Are you guessing about yourself?

College ended about a decade ago for me, with the exception of 2002 when I decided to get back into school and finish up my masters. I also needed to further develop more rapport with my friends in Westchester and Fairfield county and I needed to make more alliances with people of higher economic positions, as such, I enrolled at the University of Connecticut for to complete my Masters.

Now I got it (goal accomplished), I got good important contacts, contacts that have served me well in for my business interests in the US in terms of expansion into that country, and I learned more about the American people and way of living than most people my age here in the DR.

My apologies to the board owner as I expect and accept the fact this entire tirade should be deleted

Why should it be deleted?

Bashings appear all the time in DR1, why would this one be any different?

Afterall, it's as if you are the only one who have tried to bash at me. In the contrary, you are a drop in the bucket when it comes to this, but you know what, I'm still around and I still am who I am because people think they know, but that is exactly when they find out that they knew nothing at all about such other person.

BTW, thank you for the laugh. It's incredible all the verbal diarrhea that people come up with when I post something that had so much an effect on them that they almost lost sleep over it.

Otherwise, why waste your time posting things that will have no effect on the person you are trying to affect to start with. What ever I did that made you uncomfortable to the point of bashing me was stronger than any of your lies being posted here.

I suggest you sleep it over, tomorrow will be another fresh golden day...

Chris · Dec 29, 2004

Nal0whs said:
It was actually the Nairobi National Park in Nairobi, Kenya. I confused the name with Kruger National Park located in South Africa, near Johannesburg.

I suppose you have never confused the name of some places that you visited over 7 years ago???

Nals, the Kruger National Park is not 'near' Johannesburg. It is about 500 Kilometers from Johannesburg. (Sosua is around 240 kilometers from Santo Domingo to give you an idea.) There are about 4 other larger cities that The Kruger is much closer to. It is in the North of South Africa and is 20,000 square kilometers big. I remember when the country Israel was born, we used to say that the park was larger than Israel, so, it is the size of a small country and if you were there, you will remember it and not make mistakes. There is no civilization to be seen, excepting the wonderful lodges to sleep in.

The Nairobi National Park in Kenya is close to Nairobi - as I recall, only about 10 minutes drive by Landrover from the city center. You can run out there for an afternoon's viewing. It is much smaller than the Kruger, if I remember my High School geography, only about 100 sq kms. If you've been there, you will remember, as it is a sight that never leaves your eyes. It is the only place in the world where you can see say a black rhino grazing with the city in the background.

Yes, I've been confused with the names of places that I visited 7 years ago, but I've not been confused with the Parks in Africa - and I've been to a few of those. And I cannot really recall having been confused with whole countries... It is kinda hard to confuse them.

Now what were y'all talking about?

NALs · Dec 29, 2004

Nals, the Kruger National Park is not 'near' Johannesburg. It is about 500 Kilometers from Johannesburg. (Sosua is around 240 kilometers from Santo Domingo to give you an idea.) There are about 4 other larger cities that The Kruger is much closer to. It is in the North of South Africa and is 20,000 square kilometers big. I remember when the country Israel was born, we used to say that the park was larger than Israel, so, it is the size of a small country and if you were there, you will remember it and not make mistakes. There is no civilization to be seen, excepting the wonderful lodges to sleep in.

So Kruger is not as close to Johannesburg as I initially thought. I've never been to South Africa, but people always associate Johannesburg and Kruger in the same trip. Maybe they fly into Johannesburg first? I don't know, but that's for clarifying that.

Based on your description of the park (and from what I have been told) I will go there someday. I liked the Nairobi park, so I can just imagine the Kruger National Park in South Africa.

BTW, since we touched on the topic, is the Sun Resort (I think that's the name of the place) in that region of South Africa too? I doesn't matter how far it is, as long that its on that vicinity. I guess I can always charter an helicopter or small plane for such in between travels, if necessary.

The Nairobi National Park in Kenya is close to Nairobi - as I recall, only about 10 minutes drive by Landrover from the city center. You can run out there for an afternoon's viewing. It is much smaller than the Kruger, if I remember my High School geography, only about 100 sq kms. If you've been there, you will remember, as it is a sight that never leaves your eyes. It is the only place in the world where you can see say a black rhino grazing with the city in the background.

Yes, I know. Its pretty awesome to see such contrast of the "wild life" and the "civilized life" so close together.

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