Patwa or Creole

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DOMIERICAN

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My mom and I are having a bit of a disagreement. She insists that people that used to come from Haiti to cut sugar cane speak Patwa, were I assume that they speak Creole (after all isn't it Jamaicans that speak Patwa?) On all of the websites that I have looked at, I have found nothing to back up her claim...........
Can anyone else provide any information,perhaps Hillbilly.

Disagreement II

What is the official language of the Dominican Republic? Spanish or Castilian. BTW, her "trick" question was when she asked me what the official language of RD was. When I said Spanish....she smiled and said it was Castilian. This is what she bases her conclusion that the "Haitianos que cortan cana (that is not an n it an ~n) hablan Patwa" on......( yeah I know, I am just as confused!)

If possible answer before tonight prefered. I would be nice to eat dinner tonight ;) .
 

Quisqueya

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Well, I would have to say both of you guys are correct. We haitians speak creole which is a form of Patwa(haitian spelling) which is mostly based on the french language. The same goes for Dominicans who speak a patwa which is mostly based on spanish....An average dominican does not speak castellano rather Dominican spanish...Even the dominican that has a decent education from the best schools in DR doesn't speak castellano...Only spaniards speak Castellano....I hope this helps you out at dinner for tonight..


BTW, haitians also speak proper french which is taught in school...depending on your class in society some will speak impeccable french or those not expose to french on a regular basis well mix it with creole..

And don't forget that not all haitians come to DR to cut sugarcane but some are doctors, engineers, lawyers, and prominent businessmen...

DOMIERICAN said:
My mom and I are having a bit of a disagreement. She insists that people that used to come from Haiti to cut sugar cane speak Patwa, were I assume that they speak Creole (after all isn't it Jamaicans that speak Patwa?) On all of the websites that I have looked at, I have found nothing to back up her claim...........
Can anyone else provide any information,perhaps Hillbilly.

Disagreement II

What is the official language of the Dominican Republic? Spanish or Castilian. BTW, her "trick" question was when she asked me what the official language of RD was. When I said Spanish....she smiled and said it was Castilian. This is what she bases her conclusion that the "Haitianos que cortan cana (that is not an n it an ~n) hablan Patwa" on......( yeah I know, I am just as confused!)

If possible answer before tonight prefered. I would be nice to eat dinner tonight ;) .
 

Chirimoya

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Quisqueya said:
The same goes for Dominicans who speak a patwa which is mostly based on spanish....An average dominican does not speak castellano rather Dominican spanish...Even the dominican that has a decent education from the best schools in DR doesn't speak castellano...Only spaniards speak Castellano.
I agree with Quisqueya, except for the bit quoted above.

Dominican Spanish is not a patois. Although Dominicans have a distinctive accent and some borrowed vocabulary from African, Taino and English languages, it is comprehensible to all Spanish speakers everywhere. The same cannot be said about Creole/Kreyol and French speakers. All the non-Haitian French speakers I know who have learned Creole/Kreyol have had to approach it as a new language. I can follow a conversation in French and even participate a little, but when it comes to Kreyol I can only identify a few words because they sound like their French counterparts. Creole/Kreyol and French are much farther apart than the form of Spanish spoken in the DR and the form of Spanish spoken in Castilla.

The literal meaning of 'Castellano' is the Spanish spoken in Castilla (central Spain) but has now become synonymous with any sort of Spanish. Many Latin Americans refer to the language they speak as 'castellano', not 'espa?ol'. One such example is the Argentinians, whose Spanish is very different from the Spanish spoken in Castilla.

In fact many Haitians would also say that Kreyol is not a patois, because they consider it a separate language.
 

Narcosis

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Quisqueya said:
The same goes for Dominicans who speak a patwa which is mostly based on spanish....An average dominican does not speak castellano rather Dominican spanish...Even the dominican that has a decent education from the best schools in DR doesn't speak castellano...Only spaniards speak Castellano....I hope this helps you out at dinner for tonight./QUOTE]


"Castellano" is the official language of the Dominican Republic, and although it may be spoken with a different accent than in Castilla, as it is spoken differently in every country in Latin America or even region of spain.

The word "Spanish" only indicates the "official language" of Spain and not a language per se. The dictator Franco made Castellano the obligatory language to use in all regions of spain despite the local languages that already exsited and were widley spoken; these are Catalan, Gallego, Vasco (euskadi) and Castellano.
 

Marianopolita

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Technically speaking all languages potentially have a "patois". Meaning a dialect that is regional to a specific area of a country or a country in general. That is the BIG misconception in general among those who have no prepared knowledge of language, etymology and linguistics. By definition "patois" means: n. a regional dialect used in informal everyday situations.
As per language references a "patois" exist in the following Romance languages: Spanish, French and Italian. However, the term "dialect" as always been used instead when referring to the colloquial speech of countries where the above languages are spoken. For example: "cibae?o" by linguistic definition is a "patois" because of it's regional speech variations in comparison to the rest of Rep?blica Dominicana.

?Buen provecho!

-Lesley D


PD. Chirimoya,

I am not sure of your references but as you know I don't mind sharing opinions but actually just this year in my last lingusitics class we studied dialects, patois, pidgins etc. and Spanish is considered one of the languages in the world to have a "patois".
 
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Marianopolita

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Chirimoya,

By linguistic definition a "dialect" is only considered a separate language if it has a formal grammar particular to that language. As far as I know Creole does not have a formal grammar just word variations from the French which is the origin or basis of Haitian "creole".

Entonces no importa lo que dice la gente.

-Lesley D



Chirimoya said:
Quisqueya said:
The same goes for Dominicans who speak a patwa which is mostly based on spanish....An average dominican does not speak castellano rather Dominican spanish...Even the dominican that has a decent education from the best schools in DR doesn't speak castellano...Only spaniards speak Castellano.
I agree with Quisqueya, except for the bit quoted above.

Dominican Spanish is not a patois. Although Dominicans have a distinctive accent and some borrowed vocabulary from African, Taino and English languages, it is comprehensible to all Spanish speakers everywhere. The same cannot be said about Creole/Kreyol and French speakers. All the non-Haitian French speakers I know who have learned Creole/Kreyol have had to approach it as a new language. I can follow a conversation in French and even participate a little, but when it comes to Kreyol I can only identify a few words because they sound like their French counterparts. Creole/Kreyol and French are much farther apart than the form of Spanish spoken in the DR and the form of Spanish spoken in Castilla.

The literal meaning of 'Castellano' is the Spanish spoken in Castilla (central Spain) but has now become synonymous with any sort of Spanish. Many Latin Americans refer to the language they speak as 'castellano', not 'espa?ol'. One such example is the Argentinians, whose Spanish is very different from the Spanish spoken in Castilla.

In fact many Haitians would also say that Kreyol is not a patois, because they consider it a separate language.
 
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Barnabe

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As you probably know creole is derived from old french.

Patwa is derived from patois, which meant language. Now patois in french means "local (regional) language".

Haitians speak kreyol (creole). Now it is quite possible that Haitians use the word patwa, as kreyol is haiti's patwa.

I'll ask one of my haitian customer,

Barnab?
 

Chirimoya

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Lesley D, I bow to your superior knowledge! ;)

Going by those definitions Dominican Spanish is a patois and Haitian Creole is not.

It's true that people (including myself) are hazy about the definitions of dialect, patois and pidgins - are they really interchangeable terms?

Regional dialects in French (Picard, Proven?al) and Italian (Ligurian/Genoese, Neapolitan etc) that are much more distinct from the main language than different forms of Spanish (spoken around Spain and Latin America) are from mainstream Spanish.

I do not include Breton, Basque, Catalan and Galician as examples because they are separate languages. Their speakers strongly object to them being referred to as dialects of Spanish and French.
 
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Chirimoya

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According to the definitions in dictionary.com, dialect and patois are more or less interchangeable, meaning a local or regional variety of a langauge.

Creole and pidgin mean roughly but not exactly the same thing, a fusion of two languages.

This supports my conclusion that Dominican Spanish is a dialect/patois in the literal sense of the word, and Haitian Creole/Kreyol is a... well, a Creole! Not a pidgin because it is in many cases it's the speaker's first and only language and can't be used to communicate with others. An English speaker can understand Pacific island pidgin English. A French speaker cannot understand Haitian Kreyol.

Haitian Kreyol is not a patois in the technical sense, although it has become known as 'patwa'

Definitions (from dictionary.com):

Dialect
A regional or social variety of a language distinguished by pronunciation, grammar, or vocabulary, especially a variety of speech differing from the standard literary language or speech pattern of the culture in which it exists: Cockney is a dialect of English.
A variety of language that with other varieties constitutes a single language of which no single variety is standard: the dialects of Ancient Greek.

Patois
A regional dialect, especially one without a literary tradition.

Creole
Of or relating to a language that arises from contact between two other languages and has features of both; a mother tongue that originates from contact between two languages.

Pidgin
A simplified form of speech that is usually a mixture of two or more languages, has a rudimentary grammar and vocabulary, is used for communication between groups speaking different languages, and is not spoken as a first or native language.
 

Marianopolita

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Chrimoya,

I have just one key aspect to add regarding "Creole". The definition you provided is correct: "a Creole is a language that developed from a mixture of different languages" (Ref: Collins English Dictionary) but you must include that not only is it a mixture but it is also the main language in a particular place. Therefore by considering the latter Haitian Creole is exactly that because it has become the "main language" (means of verbal communication) in Haiti but French is formally taught in school.

A "pidgin" is a mixture of TWO languages and is used as a means of communication between two people who speak a different language. For example, a mix of Eng/Span for the sake of communication but it's not anyone's native language. So by this definition I would say "Spanglish" is an example of a "pidgin".


-Lesley D
 

Barnabe

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Breton and Basque for sure don't have anything to see with Spanish.

A french cannot understand picard, proven?al or creole unless he has been taught to, even if they are derived from french. A Spaniard talking to a Dominican will understand, like or probably easier than a french talking to a "french canadian".

I have many haitian customers. Some speak french better than most French, some can hardly be understood, mixing cr?ole and French, as Quisqueya stated.


Barnab?
 
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Quisqueya

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Chrimoya,

According to the definition you provided Creole is the language of Haiti which i grew up speaking desde la cuna. But I grew up speaking french since birth as well as many other haitians I know...

What about the French canadians in Quebec. What would you consider that..I am telling from experience I nor will a french understand an average quebecois..."Tabarnacle"....is not french...and a Francophone speaking person would not understand...T'as compris la...which is canadian french properly would be tu as compris..

I would also say that hispanics that tend to say they speak Castellano have inferior complexes with their own language and try to associate with Spain just to feel a sense of acceptance...and have know idea what spain looks like...

And Les,

Since you have done your research on the language and are very knowledgable about these issues. Can you explain to me why domincan spanish and haitian creole have the same style of grammar and syntax...I have an idea but maybe you've done some research on that issue as well...

Another thing I would like to mention is that haitians can communicate with Maritinicans, peope from Gaudeloupe, St Croix, Dominica(not DR), guyane francaise and many other countries in Creole


Lesley D said:
Chrimoya,

I have just one key aspect to add regarding "Creole". The definition you provided is correct: "a Creole is a language that developed from a mixture of different languages" (Ref: Collins English Dictionary) but you must include that not only is it a mixture but it is also the main language in a particular place. Therefore by considering the latter Haitian Creole is exactly that because it has become the "main language" (means of verbal communication) in Haiti but French is formally taught in school.

A "pidgin" is a mixture of TWO languages and is used as a means of communication between two people who speak a different language. For example, a mix of Eng/Span for the sake of communication but it's not anyone's native language. So by this definition I would say "Spanglish" is an example of a "pidgin".


-Lesley D
 

Quisqueya

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Barnabe...I see you know your stuff...We,Haitians that speak french well speak it better than the french...LOL..That's because we make sure to pronounce every letter and study the whole Larousse Dictionary..LOL..

For example, I mix creole with english and spanish but will never ever ever mix french and creole...it would be frowned upon haitians.


Barnabe said:
Breton and Basque for sure don't have anything to see with Spanish.

A french cannot understand picard, proven?al or creole unless he has been taught to, even if they are derived from french. A Spaniard talking to a Dominican will understand, like or probably easier than a french talking to a "french canadian".

I have many haitian customers. Some speak french better than most French, some can hardly be understood, mixing cr?ole and French, as Quisqueya stated.


Barnab?
 

Marianopolita

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Barnabe,

Although you edited your post I wanted to answer your question that you asked me:

"Lesley, If there is a grammar, would that make "linguistically" creole become a language, and not only a patois?"

Here is my response:

- Good question not sure if I am the one to decide however, please keep in mind you are mixing two concepts. A "creole" presently is not considered a "patois". A "patois" is another term for regional dialect (or speech pattern/ variation) i.e. "cibae?o". A "creole" by definition is language developed from a mixture of different languages and has become the main language in a particular place (Ref: Collins English Dictionary) i.e Haitian Creole is spoken in Haiti which is a mixture of French and various African languages. There are other creoles. For example, Papiamiento which is a Dutch creole spoken in Aruba, Bonaire and Curacao. It is a mixture of Dutch, Spanish and various African languages. Further to your question if these "creoles" were to become official languages which would have to be decided by the appropriate language authorities i.e. La Real Academia and L'Academie Fran?aise there would be many as mentioned above Haitian creole, Dutch creole, etc. I hope this makes sense.

-Lesley D




Barnabe said:
Breton and Basque for sure don't have anything to see with Spanish.

A french cannot understand picard, proven?al or creole unless he has been taught to, even if they are derived from french. A Spaniard talking to a Dominican will understand, like or probably easier than a french talking to a "french canadian".

I have many haitian customers. Some speak french better than most French, some can hardly be understood, mixing cr?ole and French, as Quisqueya stated.


Barnab?
 
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Okay, so a "dialect" or "patois" is any regional variation on the mother tongue. And Dominican Spanish is a "dialect".

If the above is true, then almost all English spoken (Atlantic Canada, Middle Atlantic, Midwester, Australian, etc.) is a "dialect". After all, how many people speak BBC English?

And isn't BBC English a "patois" also, since, arguably, New England English is closer to Elizabethan than BBC English? And is Elizabethan the standard? I could go on and on.
 

Narcosis

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Quisqueya said:
Chrimoya,

But I grew up speaking french since birth as well as many other haitians I know...


I would also say that hispanics that tend to say they speak Castellano have inferior complexes with their own language and try to associate with Spain just to feel a sense of acceptance...and have know idea what spain looks like...

You make a whole lot of sense with these 2 quotes..

Again Castellano is the official language of the Dominican Republic.

As was already stated, Castellano is spoken differenty within Spain it'self, so who is the benchmark? Many scholars say Cachacos or people from Bogota Colombia, actually speak the most correct Castellano.
 

Quisqueya

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En general I think Colombians speak the best spanish if there is such a thing as that. I guess that is why "Los Rolos" never forget to tell me that they speak the best Castellano...

But I must say haitians speak one of the best french as well..Guyane Francaise sound just like the Parisians(well very close)..so I guess they would be considered the best french speakers..and Algerians speak very well too...

Narcosis said:
You make a whole lot of sense with these 2 quotes..

Again Castellano is the official language of the Dominican Republic.

As was already stated, Castellano is spoken differenty within Spain it'self, so who is the benchmark? Many scholars say Cachacos or people from Bogota Colombia, actually speak the most correct Castellano.
 

DOMIERICAN

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Gettin' hungry

OK my friends, my day is winding down here so let me get this straight
Patwas, patois (ect) is synonimous with creole.
Castilian is the official language of DR.............................

I think I might have lost the battle and the war!
Good thing I have a holiday party to go to tonight where there is going to be a glorious spread!
 
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