NY times article - Ramona Hern?ndez

Chris,
Here is the more relevant quote as to why Ramona says that Dominicans are not assimilating as easily:

"It is a sign, she said, of a community struggling for a foothold, not always fully accepted as Latino because many are black, but not embraced by African-Americans because of language barriers."

I can (and have) debate(d) with Ramona on both sides of the issue. But that's an ongoing discussion.

One thing I can say is that I am happy the NYT has redeemed her. I respect her taking a stance not to serve as a puppet leader to rubberstamp policies she does not believe in.

Chris said:

In today's NY times there is a profile about Ramona Hern?ndez from the Dominican Studies Institute at the City University of New York.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/12/28/nyregion/28profile.html

You'll need a user name and password to access the article.

What I found interesting, is the statement that Dominican's cling to their identity in a way that other groups do not. Here is a short quote: "A 2003 analysis by the institute said, for instance, that if current trends continue, Dominicans will outnumber Puerto Ricans in the city by the end of the decade. The Dominican population surged 51 percent in the 1990's, to 554,638, while the number of Puerto Ricans fell 12.8 percent, to 789,172, Dr. Hern?ndez said in a study written with a Columbia University researcher, Francisco L. Rivera-Batiz.

Dominicans from Manhattan to the Bronx are clinging to their identity in a way, she said, that other Latino groups are not."

Click to expand...

It benefits some with the current leadership to promote that Dominicans are not assimilating or are mainly NY focused. This line of arguments prevents taking a more national approach on behalf of Dominicans.
On the assimilation issue, I'll leave it at that.

On being embraced...well this is a long debate issue. People tend to more easily embrace those who think like them or talk like them (in content), etc. So it's a catch-22, chicken and egg problem.

The fact that many Dominicans have a color inferiority complex causes problems when you enter American society and politics. Many old school immigrants (not just Dominicans) love to hate on African Americans and use derogatory names and love to differentiate themselves from African-American. This is what I call a sell-out. The fact that many buy into the stereotypes just doesn't help build healthy social and political coalitions. Others feel that their only options is to become the stereotype because they fit into it since they are black/mixed, urban and young males.

Many postings here exhibit "the anti-black" mess as well. It's about trying to be more racist than the old school racist themselves. The consequenses are that these people are turning into the Clarence Thomases of Dominicans. Just pitiful.

This is why Ramona's stance was sooo important. I respect the fact she dissented. I can't say I agree with her in content since I would need to do research on the impact of the said policy, but I can agree with her on principle.

I personally think that a sell out tactic will get Dominicans no where fast. It keeps us fighting for peanuts and only (maybe if that) affecting a 20 block radius called Washington Heights when in fact we are now a nationwide entity.
But I know some want to keep it like that because they benefit from it.

Peace

Chris said:

I specifically did not want to quote that piece because of the "debate-ability" I think people get accepted because of their own behavior and their own community interaction... not because they get 'embraced'. Where is one going to get this level of acceptance and in New York no less. Don't know if it exists, no matter one's language, culture or color.

I've been thinking about this diaspora of Dominicans and have good examples from my own home country - where a diaspora or 'brain-drain' is also taking place and has been for many years. It is interesting to contrast - I've met people from my country all over the world, and despite the always present complaints about a new country, new cultural behaviors and other such difficult stuff, somehow the people assimilate into a new culture, black, white or whatever. So, I cannot buy it, that the Dominican community in New York is struggling for a foothold because of "their color", "their creed", "their language" or something.

Now I'm sounding critical. It is not that.. it is just that I've been thinking about this..... See why I did not want to quote that sentence.. I'm debating already

Click to expand...

This is kind of a silly thread in general.

To me it's quite simple:

Most Dominicans head to New York because there is a huge Dominican population. Many of us don't necessarily want to leave their culture behind, as we truly love our country and culture, but wish to earn more money. So we go to "Nueva York", and basically live in another, albeit much richer, Dominican city.

The DR has a very rich culture, and a very nice pace of life. Being a former resident of 181st St. in Washington Heights, I can proudly state almost any Dominican can feel completely at ease in the Washington Heights area straight off the airplane from Santo Domingo. It may be New York, but it's still the Dominican Republic. And that's the appeal. Dominicans have completely taken over a portion of the city and made it their own.

I think the majority of Dominicans in New York simply want to improve upon their existing lives, and make some money to send back home to family members....then eventually save enough to move back to the DR. I don't think Americans who live an EXTREMELY fast paced "goal oriented" life may understand that the goals of the majority of Dominicans are much lower. Most Dominicans don't aspire to be Donald Trump, but just the guy down the street with enough money to eat.

You would think after reading that Times article that the Dominican situation is unique. Quite frankly, it is no different than the large (although not as large) populations of Haitians, Jamaicans, Russians, Chinese, Vietnamese, Mexicans, Salvadoreans etc in the Boston to Washington DC corridor. It's just an article in the Times because Puerto Ricans and Dominicans make up a large chunk of the voting percentage in NYC.

However, I do find it interesting that the whole concept of "assimilation" in the US seems to mean "abandon your culture completely and become a generic WASP". If you look back at the concept of the US being a melting pot it was purely amongst Western Europeans. Their cultures and skintones were similar enough to meld. So of course, the oddities of their cultures began to disappear slowly over many generations.

Dominicans have a very unique culture, and don't have the "benefit" (if you could call it that) of 10-12 other ethnicities in the US who share many similarities. So get used to the concept of the independent Dominican in the US, quite frankly we take pride in it.......

Gilbert,
I am as much a proud product of NYC as you. The thing is I question how long NY will be the focus of Dominican immigration. We are both living proof that Dominicans do and are migrating out to other states at increasingly rapid rates. This is further reinforced by direct arrivals from the island (skipping NY) to this new location be it to Anchorage,AK, Salt Lake City,UT, Lawrence, MA, Providence, RI, etc.. Thus, I do not think that the NYC-focus mentality is not sustainable and is not right. At the end, if we do not prepare our generation to take on a nationwide approach it will hurt us in the long run. Why? Because given the inferiority complex about our color most WILL assimilate into American culture and this will in time come at the cost of us losing that which we all profess we do not wish to lose...our culture. Case in point are people like Felix Sanchez and Michele Rodriguez from CA with limited Spanish language skills and exposure to the culture other than the routine foods and music.

I also believe that if Dominicans were to move out of NYC we would do much better financially; not making us, as Ramona has found, to be among one of the lowest income earners in NYC.

Peace

GilbertArenas said:

This is kind of a silly thread in general.

To me it's quite simple:

Most Dominicans head to New York because there is a huge Dominican population. Many of us don't necessarily want to leave their culture behind, as we truly love our country and culture, but wish to earn more money. So we go to "Nueva York", and basically live in another, albeit much richer, Dominican city.

The DR has a very rich culture, and a very nice pace of life. Being a former resident of 181st St. in Washington Heights, I can proudly state almost any Dominican can feel completely at ease in the Washington Heights area straight off the airplane from Santo Domingo. It may be New York, but it's still the Dominican Republic. And that's the appeal. Dominicans have completely taken over a portion of the city and made it their own.

I think the majority of Dominicans in New York simply want to improve upon their existing lives, and make some money to send back home to family members....then eventually save enough to move back to the DR. I don't think Americans who live an EXTREMELY fast paced "goal oriented" life may understand that the goals of the majority of Dominicans are much lower. Most Dominicans don't aspire to be Donald Trump, but just the guy down the street with enough money to eat.

You would think after reading that Times article that the Dominican situation is unique. Quite frankly, it is no different than the large (although not as large) populations of Haitians, Jamaicans, Russians, Chinese, Vietnamese, Mexicans, Salvadoreans etc in the Boston to Washington DC corridor. It's just an article in the Times because Puerto Ricans and Dominicans make up a large chunk of the voting percentage in NYC.

However, I do find it interesting that the whole concept of "assimilation" in the US seems to mean "abandon your culture completely and become a generic WASP". If you look back at the concept of the US being a melting pot it was purely amongst Western Europeans. Their cultures and skintones were similar enough to meld. So of course, the oddities of their cultures began to disappear slowly over many generations.

Dominicans have a very unique culture, and don't have the "benefit" (if you could call it that) of 10-12 other ethnicities in the US who share many similarities. So get used to the concept of the independent Dominican in the US, quite frankly we take pride in it.......

Click to expand...

We touched on that issue in the recent thread about Dominicans learning English: the fact that the first generation migrate with the intention of returning to the DR is one of the factors we discussed.

It would have been interesting to have Gilbert participate in that discussion, it sounds like he would have had something to contribute.

The thing is that Dominicans come with the intention of returning but almost all of them DON'T. That is the problem. Thus, they are unable and apathetic about what is going on in their own backyard (crime, drugs, prostitution, etc.)
Moreover, those that do return also tend to backtrack back to the US since they find themselves disillusioned and used until their money runs out. These migrants are never fully accepted back in DR. It's more of an frustrating yet idealized dream.

Chris said:

Seems to me from an outsider's perspective, that Gilbert has hit some nail on some head... The acculturation of Dominicans is slow, possibly because they do not have to adapt - as he says - for most the journey to New York is temporary, they are planning to come home and their's is a close knit community that feels like one still is in the DR.

Possibly when there is a broader movement of Dominicans away from New York, acculturation will be easier?

Click to expand...

Some observations

Everyone's comments have been interesting and truthful thus far and I have yet to read the article but I have few questions/points based on what I has been said in the thread:

* I believe that Dominicans and all immigrants should learn to speak English if they choose to live in the US regardless of the estimated time frame. The primary reason being is to increase their earning potential. If moving to the US is to earn $ one should not limit his/herself to a lesser income because of his/her inability to speak English which automatically puts one in a lower income bracket (by choice). I know age is a factor etc. but my point is in broad terms.

* Assimilation/ Acculturation- I am not a believer in the melting pot 100% mentality. I think one can retain his/her culture while acquiring and adapting to aspects of his/her new culture. Once again English comes into play. By not learning English one is automatically choosing not to assimilate at all because of the language barrier. Why not enjoy the best of both worlds.

* I think it is important to distinguish between an immigrant community (enclave) and let's say an exile community (enclave). My favorite example of an "enclave" comparable to Washington Heights is Calle Ocho in Miami. I think it's one of the biggest Cuban enclaves in the US and probably formed from same ideology as Washington Heights. Enclaves are usually a comfort zone or a cushion for immigrants of the same culture. All their needs (especially language) are met without having to step out of the unique world they created for themselves. However, I believe immigrant communities i.e. Washington Heights are formed because people have chosen a new home abroad and with the hopes of bettering their lives and those of the future generations. Now if Dominicans are only moving to the "infamous enclave" to make enough money to survive and eventually go back to the DR one day is that not an exile community (enclave) mentality thus counterproductive? The reason why I mention this is because the fundamental difference between an exile community and an immigrant community is that people who live in exile want to go back to their country and they hope that their life abroad is temporary but an immigrant community has chosen a new home abroad in order to prosper. If they do go back to their country of origin it's usually in their later years. Deelt, to your point this is possibly why you are saying that success is limited in examining Dominicans as a whole in the US because of the mentality or ideology behind limiting their lives to "the Heights" etc. Correct?

-Lesley D-

My Dominican Wife Is In New Haven Conn. Right Now!

She left here in March,to do her "Dominican Thing". Which means,go to "Nueba Yor",find a job,and make a lot of money!
She found two jobs! She is working 8 to 4 in a lamp factory,all Dominicans,and 6 to 10 in "Bayer" labs.She already got a "raise,just for comining to work on time,and everyday!She "IS",making lots of money!(More Than Twice What I Make Here!) She is working using a "cousins" papers.But I really doubt that the companies,or immigration, look at the "papers" very closely!
She plans to work until March,and then "we,ll see" what we are going to do.Meaning take all the kids, and me,and move to "Nueba Yor"too!

<<The reason why I mention this is because the fundamental difference between an exile community and an immigrant community is that people who live in exile want to go back to their country and they hope that their life abroad is temporary but an immigrant community has chosen a new home abroad in order to prosper. If they do go back to their country of origin it's usually in their later years. Deelt, to your point this is possibly why you are saying that success is limited in examining Dominicans as a whole in the US because of the mentality or ideology behind limiting their lives to "the Heights" etc. Correct?>>

I think your analysis is well informed, and an excellent analysis in general of mass migrations of peoples not born in the US (however there are many combinations of the two you mention which you don't cover). However, this same mentality is precisely why many Dominicans in New York (and other cities) desperately want to move back to the DR after making their money.

Even as I am firmly ensconsed (sp?) in the American Corporate machine, I find that the typical Urban-American chooses to live their life at a pace which is extremely unhealthy. Over the past 8 years in the US, I have been stuck in a culture which overanalyzes, over-defines, categorizes pretty much everything around it....and ALWAYS strives to be something "better". Many people would respond that is simply an intellectual approach to life, but it is one I wish to escape as quickly as possible to save my sanity and reduce my blood pressure....when my bank account has swelled sufficiently.

I strongly feel that people in general should accept that the "American" experience differs for every culture. Dominicans have carved their own niche in NY, they don't particularly care for the American culture but do love the ability to make more money. They are also generally very appreciative of jobs "native" americans feel are "beneath" them. You must remember the American lower income bracket you mention would be upper middle class in the Dominican Republic. Why strive for more when you just increased your earnings by 5000%?

I'm sure many of you on these boards can relate to this. How many of you have lived in the DR for one or more years and still can't hold a decent conversation in Spanish? How many of you complain nightly at your homes in Sosua or PP about how the Dominican culture drives you nuts? But most of you moved to the DR for economic reasons, the promise of cheap living, maids, and a life on the beach while still having some "American" luxuries available (Burger King, American resorts etc). Eventually, you'll all move back to the States or Canada when your need for prescription medicines and medical care become a necessity or other family needs come up. In other words 99% of you have absolutely no intent of permanently becoming "one" with the Dominican Republic.

Why is it so hard for many Americans and Canadians to fathom that Dominicans and many other immigrants wish to do something similar in the US? The US offers them a piece of luxury they simply can't find in the DR, easy jobs which pay 50 times more than they would in the DR. So they, much like you are doing, max out their economic benefits for a set period of time and head back to their own country.

I think it's extremely egotisical for Americans in general to assume that ALL people MUST want to permanently stay in the US. It's a great country in many ways, but also in many ways it is the most stressful, intense country in the world. At many times I find myself asking what the hell I am still doing here when I could be in the DR at a bodega chatting it up with the locals and having a few beers. Sure I'd be a lot poorer, but my shoulders wouldn't be tight as hell, and my heart rate and blood pressure would be lower.......but of course it's all about the money. I'm sure that's the same conclusion many of you come to when you consider moving back to the States. (Hmm 3000 dollar rent per month for a small apt in Boston, or 300 a month in Sosua near the beach?) It's just sort of inverted for many Dominicans (2000 dollars per month cleaning houses or 2000 pesos? Stress out for my family in the DR by working hard in the US for a few more years, or return home empty handed?)

I'm rambling at this point, and I truly mean no offense. But I hope many of you get where I'm coming from. Just because a country is economically rich, doesn't mean it's day to day culture is palatable for prolonged periods for ALL other cultures. Obviously same goes for all cultures.

Criss Colon said:

She left here in March,to do her "Dominican Thing". Which means,go to "Nueba Yor",find a job,and make a lot of money!
She found two jobs! She is working 8 to 4 in a lamp factory,all Dominicans,and 6 to 10 in "Bayer" labs.She already got a "raise,just for comining to work on time,and everyday!She "IS",making lots of money!(More Than Twice What I Make Here!) She is working using a "cousins" papers.But I really doubt that the companies,or immigration, look at the "papers" very closely!
She plans to work until March,and then "we,ll see" what we are going to do.Meaning take all the kids, and me,and move to "Nueba Yor"too!

Click to expand...

Congratulations. Just get a jacket, it's cold as hell up here. Hehe.....especially in Connecticut!

Gilbert, thanks for your post.

I can't speak for the expats of US origin: it's true they might get offended, but OTOH the negatives you describe about the US are mentioned again and again by those very same group as the reasons why they chose to settle in the DR.

Chirimoya said:

Gilbert, thanks for your post.

I can't speak for the expats of US origin: it's true they might get offended, but OTOH the negatives you describe about the US are mentioned again and again by those very same group as the reasons why they chose to settle in the DR.

Click to expand...

Happy to see someone actually read it all.

As for them settling in the DR to avoid the stresses I mention, I'm merely stating that those same stresses obviously make the culture difficult to deal with for non natives.

Thanks for the reply. This is a fascinating subject.....and definitely the only website in the world where I could participate in it..... :glasses:

deelt said:

Chris,
Here is the more relevant quote as to why Ramona says that Dominicans are not assimilating as easily:

"It is a sign, she said, of a community struggling for a foothold, not always fully accepted as Latino because many are black, but not embraced by African-Americans because of language barriers."

I can (and have) debate(d) with Ramona on both sides of the issue. But that's an ongoing discussion.

One thing I can say is that I am happy the NYT has redeemed her. I respect her taking a stance not to serve as a puppet leader to rubberstamp policies she does not believe in.

Click to expand...

I understand your point, and the point is well taken. However, NOT all Dominicans are black. That is very inaccurate assessment of our race. Iam half Irish (father's side) and white Dominican (mother's side). My mother was almost as white as I am and I am pretty daggone white. So, please do not judge Dominicans by being soley black. However, I appreciate your post, it was written with the right spirit.