Talking about debates... this is a big one!

asdavila said:

On Yes Network, New York Nankees Forum, a big debate is going on about Alex Rodriguez decission to play for The Dominican Republic Team on 2006?s baseball international tournament.

Some of you should read the nasty remarks some people are writing there. And to my surprise, how many US born people has defended Alex?s right to defend the colors he chooses.

What do you think about this?

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I am too sadened by the terrorist attack in London today to even think about baseball or a individual.

Escott said:

I am too sadened by the terrorist attack in London today to even think about baseball or a individual.

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Why did you post then?

But he will represent the US in the home run competition. It seems he's conflicted, trying to keep everyone happy.

I think he can claim both. Human mindset always seem to look at things black or white and never look at the shades of grey. The same people that criticize him for claiming things American will be the same people claiming he is Dominican if he break the Homerun record. Being that i'm also multi-cultured I've come to conclusion to screw all those who want to define who I am. He is not conflicted but the people that talk bad about him are.

sancochojoe said:

I think he can claim both. Human mindset always seem to look at things black or white and never look at the shades of grey. The same people that criticize him for claiming things American will be the same people claiming he is Dominican if he break the Homerun record. Being that i'm also multi-cultured I've come to conclusion to screw all those who want to define who I am. He is not conflicted but the people that talk bad about him are.

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I don't get it? Wasn't he born in the US? Then he's American. He should be playing for the US. He may be of dominican descent, but he's still an American plain and simple--you can't have your cake and eat too. I used to get into an argument with one of my Mexican-american friends all the time. She would tell me that she felt Mexican first, and American second--and i was like......man you're one of the most americanized people i know--give me a break. In my opinion straddling the fence of nationality in the US does no good for the minority community. If you want to be seen as an American and as an equal, REPRESENT. Besides that just proves white people's point in this country--that the only real americans can only be white. That is why i prefer the word black to African-American--whether i like it or not(which i don't) i am more american than i will ever be African (culturally). I am not saying Alex should denounce or deny his heritage, but if you have to make a CHOICE--you've got to chose your HOME country! Right??

Exxtol said:

I don't get it? Wasn't he born in the US? Then he's American. He should be playing for the US. He may be of dominican descent, but he's still an American plain and simple--you can't have your cake and eat too. I used to get into an argument with one of my Mexican-american friends all the time. She would tell me that she felt Mexican first, and American second--and i was like......man you're one of the most americanized people i know--give me a break. In my opinion straddling the fence of nationality in the US does no good for the minority community. If you want to be seen as an American and as an equal, REPRESENT. Besides that just proves white people's point in this country--that the only real americans can only be white. That is why i prefer the word black to African-American--whether i like it or not(which i don't) i am more american than i will ever be African (culturally). I am not saying Alex should denounce or deny his heritage, but if you have to make a CHOICE--you've got to chose your HOME country! Right??

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Your speaking from a legal aspect. Nothing more. Born between certain borders does not make you part of that country culturally. If that is the case, American citizens born overseas because their parents were in the military would make them whatever that country they were in, BUT LEGALLY, you are an American. Ask your typical military brat that was born overseas and ask them if they concidered themselves German or Japanese because their parents were stationed abroad.

Remember I'm using your logic of "Wasn't he born in the US? Then he's American."

Exxtol said:

I don't get it? Wasn't he born in the US? Then he's American. He should be playing for the US. He may be of dominican descent, but he's still an American plain and simple--you can't have your cake and eat too. I used to get into an argument with one of my Mexican-american friends all the time. She would tell me that she felt Mexican first, and American second--and i was like......man you're one of the most americanized people i know--give me a break. In my opinion straddling the fence of nationality in the US does no good for the minority community. If you want to be seen as an American and as an equal, REPRESENT. Besides that just proves white people's point in this country--that the only real americans can only be white. That is why i prefer the word black to African-American--whether i like it or not(which i don't) i am more american than i will ever be African (culturally). I am not saying Alex should denounce or deny his heritage, but if you have to make a CHOICE--you've got to chose your HOME country! Right??

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I understand your point but if you walk around asking people "What are you?? the answer is going to be either Italian, Dominican, Puerto rican, Australian, german or whatever, in rare occacions you hear someone say "ohh I'm american". Us as dominicans have the choice to have double nationality and in that case we can pick what country we want to represent accordig to the the event... I did not hear anybody complaining when Tim Duncan represented USA as part of the dream team and he is not "AMERICAN". The fact that Alex decided to represent DR was his choice and as well as when he made that comment about being american, i respect his opinion. Nationality is something that you feel in your heart and your proud of... not a document.

Malafama said:

I understand your point but if you walk around asking people "What are you?? the answer is going to be either Italian, Dominican, Puerto rican, Australian, german or whatever, in rare occacions you hear someone say "ohh I'm american". Us as dominicans have the choice to have double nationality and in that case we can pick what country we want to represent accordig to the the event... I did not hear anybody complaining when Tim Duncan represented USA as part of the dream team and he is not "AMERICAN". The fact that Alex decided to represent DR was his choice and as well as when he made that comment about being american, i respect his opinion. Nationality is something that you feel in your heart and your proud of... not a document.

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Tim Duncan is from the US Virgin Islands. The US stands for United States. Everyone there is an American citizen. He's been an American citizen since birth, so how is he not an American?

Alex Rodriguez was born and raised in the United States. I'm not sure, but does he even have dual citizenship?

Also, there is an international eligibility rule stating that a player may not compete for a second country after representing a nation in a competition above the junior level. I'm not sure how this affects Alex, but that's the reason Tim CAN ONLY PLAY FOR THE US. He couldn't play for the Virgin Islands even if he wanted to because he played in the 1994 goodwill games for the US.

It helps when you have your facts straight.

fortywater said:

Tim Duncan is from the US Virgin Islands. The US stands for United States. Everyone there is an American citizen. He's been an American citizen since birth, so how is he not an American?

Alex Rodriguez was born and raised in the United States. I'm not sure, but does he even have dual citizenship?

Also, there is an international eligibility rule stating that a player may not compete for a second country after representing a nation in a competition above the junior level. I'm not sure how this affects Alex, but that's the reason Tim CAN ONLY PLAY FOR THE US. He couldn't play for the Virgin Islands even if he wanted to because he played in the 1994 goodwill games for the US.

It helps when you have your facts straight.

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First, A-rod has dual citizenship, it is granted to the person at birth if any of the parents are Dominicans plus he lived in Santo Domingo for several years after moving from New York. I might be wrong but i think this is how it works.

Tim didn't represent the Virgin Islands because their team did not qualify not even for the Pre-Olympics... The fact that it is called US Virgin islands does not mean that he has to represent the United States.. Carlos Arroyo represented Puerto Rico in the Olympics, Ivan Rodriguez and Carlos Beltran will represent Puerto Rico on the World Cup of baseball next year isn't Puerto Rico consider part of the US why aren't the best catcher in the league representing the US, If i'm not mistaken they count 50 US States and Puerto Rico.. i have never heard anyone include the "US Virgin Islands" in the count or maybe i'm wrong??? It was Duncan choice as well as Arroyo's, Rodriguez and Beltran.. And if A-Rod consider himself Dominican then more power to him

you said "Also, there is an international eligibility rule stating that a player may not compete for a second country after representing a nation in a competition above the junior level." This maybe depends on the country because Charlie Villanueva represented the USA team couple of years ago and he will represent DR on the Pre-World tournament of Basketball this coming August.

Maybe it would help you better to get your facts straight....

Malafama said:

First, A-rod has dual citizenship, it is granted to the person at birth if any of the parents are Dominicans plus he lived in Santo Domingo for several years after moving from New York. I might be wrong but i think this is how it works.

Tim didn't represent the Virgin Islands because their team did not qualify not even for the Pre-Olympics... The fact that it is called US Virgin islands does not mean that he has to represent the United States.. Carlos Arroyo represented Puerto Rico in the Olympics, Ivan Rodriguez and Carlos Beltran will represent Puerto Rico on the World Cup of baseball next year isn't Puerto Rico consider part of the US why aren't the best catcher in the league representing the US, If i'm not mistaken they count 50 US States and Puerto Rico.. i have never heard anyone include the "US Virgin Islands" in the count or maybe i'm wrong??? It was Duncan choice as well as Arroyo's, Rodriguez and Beltran.. And if A-Rod consider himself Dominican then more power to him

you said "Also, there is an international eligibility rule stating that a player may not compete for a second country after representing a nation in a competition above the junior level." This maybe depends on the country because Charlie Villanueva represented the USA team couple of years ago and he will represent DR on the Pre-World tournament of Basketball this coming August.

Maybe it would help you better to get your facts straight....

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Do you read English? If not then maybe there is a problem with your translation. Otherwise your response to my post is illogical at best.

You stated that Tim Duncan was not an American. I informed you that people from the US Virgin Islands are US citizens, therefore Americans by birth. I mentioned that it was called the US Virgin Islands to illustrate this fact to you. I hope this point is clear to you now.

Secondly, so that you will sound intelligent when you speak on the matter, Puerto Ricans are American citizens as well. As are people from Guam, Phillipine Islands, Canal Zone, Virgin Islands, Guano Islands, Samoa, Tutuila, Manua, Swains Island, and Trust Territory of the Pacific Islands. I believe that most, if not all of them send a democratically elected non-voting representative to the US Congress to lobby on their behalf. If you would like any more information on this subject please perform a search on the Internet using your preferred engine with the phrase "US Territory and Insular Possession". I like Google, but everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

Tertiarily, I never wrote that because the Virgin Islands is a part of the United States Tim Duncan was obligated to play for the US. I said that he was obligated to play for the US because he represented the US in the 1994 Goodwill Games, and could not subsequently change nations in international competition. Carlos Arroyo will not be representing the US in international competition, unless they change the rules. I also stated that I did not know the rules of the international baseball community when I said that:

"I'm not sure how this [the international basketball rule that keeps players from playing for two nations] affects Alex."

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So why are you even bringing baseball players into this? Obviously you have trouble connecting the dots.

Moving right along, if you put your reading spectacles on you will see that I wrote (and you quoted in your reply so I don't know how you missed it):

"there is an international eligibility rule stating that a player may not compete for a second country after representing a nation in a competition above the JUNIOR LEVEL"

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Charlie Villanueva's website states that he was:

Gold Medal Winner for the 2004 USA World Championship U21 ( Young Men Qualifying Team),

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hmmmm, perhaps Young Men Qualifying Team = Junior Level, ya think?

It would behoove you to look up the rules and regulations for FIBA (the international basketball governing body) section 3.3 where it discusses the limitations of playing on a national team. I'm not saying you have to; only if you want to know what you're talking about.

And last but not least, your declaration that

..A-rod has dual citizenship, it is granted to the person at birth if any of the parents are Dominicans..

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Oh THAT'S how it works. And to imagine, all this time I thought there might be something crazy like paperwork, applications, government bureaucracy and lawyers involved. How silly of me, there's the magical citizenship fairy that rides around with the stork and tucks cedulas into the diapers of all the cute little babies delivered to any Dominican parents anywhere in the world. Boy, I was way off.

Now on to my concluding remarks.

It's really pitiful that I am required to quote MYSELF when responding to your post. Oh, and it's also pitiful that I have to remind you to get your facts straight again. Trust me, you'll sound smarter and people will have more respect for you if you take the time to at least make an attempt at veracity.

Thank you, good night and drive safely.

People from the phillipines are not american citizens at birth and as far as i know never were. I beleive the only non-voting reps in Congress come from Guam and Washington DC. Most of those other places such as America Somoa and Marshall Isands are US proctectorates, not territories. Puerto Ricans are born US citizens by virtue of the Platt Amendment.

fko1 said:

People from the phillipines are not american citizens at birth and as far as i know never were. I beleive the only non-voting reps in Congress come from Guam and Washington DC. Most of those other places such as America Somoa and Marshall Isands are US proctectorates, not territories. Puerto Ricans are born US citizens by virtue of the Platt Amendment.

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I checked the US House of Representatives web page. Here is a list of non-voting delegates: America Samoa, Washington DC, Guam, Puerto Rico, and US Virgin Islands.

fko1 said:

People from the phillipines are not american citizens at birth and as far as i know never were. I beleive the only non-voting reps in Congress come from Guam and Washington DC. Most of those other places such as America Somoa and Marshall Isands are US proctectorates, not territories. Puerto Ricans are born US citizens by virtue of the Platt Amendment.

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You are correct on the phillipines, that was an oversight on my part when I copied and pasted the list in a hurry.

However as a caveat it should be noted that at one point the Philippines were in US hands for almost 50 years and its inhabitants were considered "American Nationals" because it was U.S. Territory, meaning they could freely travel to the US mainland. I believe that I should have drawn a line between who is an "American" and who has citizenship(weird). Here is a good link to the whole issue:

http://www.americanlaw.com/citborn.html

I also want to apologize for beginning to hijack this thread, but I guess it relates to the issue of nationality in general.

ARod's decision is very confusing...

Let's see the highest paid player in Baseball history right!.. so let's see how Dominican he really is:

1. Born, raised, and educated in the U.S.
2. Does not contribute a dime for Athletic or social development in the island
3. He can't speak a lick of Spanish!
4. His wife is no where near Carribean, let alone Dominican.
5. Everytime he comes to D.R. he saids education is power.but no schools in his name!
6. Has never ever played in La liga del Caribe (ever)!nor indorses it, or supports it.
7. Just contributed over 5 million dollars to renovate the U of Miami baseball facities, and he never even attended the school.
8. I know for a fact he does not attend Dominican night clubs, nor listens to merengue music in nor out of the locker rooms!
9. Has never purchased a Vacation home, nor a condo in the island dispite living there at one time.
10. He is never present in the Dominican parade in NYC or any where else.

ARod was reported recently of attending therapy sessions for personal emotional problems two month ago, some say he is having trouble trying to find himself, and coup with the broken relationship he has with his father who abandoned him at early age, so this move can maybe be a part the his healing process... I think.. but..

What ARod has seem to have forgetten.. is that when he looks up at those packed staduim seats, from Seattle, to Texas, U.of M. and on to New York, American's have appreciated him, and have paid that hefty salary of his, and fill those seats to capacity to see him!! 4% of the Dominican community attend games for MLB...and almost 83% of American's show up to see him play on a consistant basis..this is an error in judgement on Arod's part, and you know New York fans are very loyal, and this move would be a slap in the face to all his American fans, if you are full blown Dominican! born Raised, and educated..then support your community with Pride! no problems..but ARod is as American as Apple pie, and contributes nothing to Dominican Athletics and social development, and he knows this...this move can get him boooded throughout the whole series including at his return to Yankee stadium during the 2006 season!.. so his P.R. people better re-evaluate this decision!

daddy1 said:

Let's see the highest paid player in Baseball history right!.. so let's see how Dominican he really is:

1. Born, raised, and educated in the U.S.
2. Does not contribute a dime for Athletic or social development in the island
3. He can't speak a lick of Spanish!
4. His wife is no where near Carribean, let alone Dominican.
5. Everytime he comes to D.R. he saids education is power.but no schools in his name!
6. Has never ever played in La liga del Caribe (ever)!nor indorses it, or supports it.
7. Just contributed over 5 million dollars to renovate the U of Miami baseball facities, and he never even attended the school.
8. I know for a fact he does not attend Dominican night clubs, nor listens to merengue music in nor out of the locker rooms!
9. Has never purchased a Vacation home, nor a condo in the island dispite living there at one time.
10. He is never present in the Dominican parade in NYC or any where else.

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Look, what he hasn't contribute does not take away who he is. He is not obligated to do anything.

So the criteria is,

1. you have to contribute money an social developement in DR to be a Dominican

2. His wife is not Dominican so he isn't Dominican

3. A school has to be in his name in DR to be a Dominican

3. Never played on a Dominican team, so your not Dominican

4. Doesn't go to Dominican night clubs, so he is not Dominican

5. Doesn't own property in DR, that you know of, so he is not Dominican

6. Doesn't go to Dominican parades, so he is not dominican.

7. You have to speak spanish to be a Dominican

Wow, those are strict rules to be born from a Dominican Mother and Father and not be Dominican.

I've done over half of those, can I be a Dominican?

sancochojoe said:

Your speaking from a legal aspect. Nothing more. Born between certain borders does not make you part of that country culturally. If that is the case, American citizens born overseas because their parents were in the military would make them whatever that country they were in, BUT LEGALLY, you are an American. Ask your typical military brat that was born overseas and ask them if they concidered themselves German or Japanese because their parents were stationed abroad.

Remember I'm using your logic of "Wasn't he born in the US? Then he's American."

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Sancochojoe,

I see where you are coming from but as a military brat and a military person myself I must disagree with you. Brats born overseas are, in the vast majority of cases, surrounded by other Americans. They are born in American military hospitals, go to DOD schools, live around or in very close proximity to other Americans, and after 2 or 3 years leave that country. That is quite different than an American being born overseas and truly living and being immersed in the culture of that country.

A-Rod can chose to play for whoever he wants to, I don't care, but it does seem to me that many people do try to have their cake and eat it too. Many people are American when it is of convenience for them.

Fortywater

My younger brother was using my account and responded to your posts before... I agree with you in some aspects but it was kind of rude of you the way your answered him.. Obviously you have more knowledge of the subject matter than he does but instead of making him feel stupid why couldn't you just teach him.. i know he didn't reply in the best way either but i'm guessing that you are older and should be able to handle the situation better.. His only point was that in the case of Alex or any other Pro-player, it is a choice they make.. Again your post was very informative and accurate just wish it would have been done in a more pleasant way.. God bless.

ALB3 said:

Sancochojoe,

I see where you are coming from but as a military brat and a military person myself I must disagree with you. Brats born overseas are, in the vast majority of cases, surrounded by other Americans. They are born in American military hospitals, go to DOD schools, live around or in very close proximity to other Americans, and after 2 or 3 years leave that country. That is quite different than an American being born overseas and truly living and being immersed in the culture of that country.

A-Rod can chose to play for whoever he wants to, I don't care, but it does seem to me that many people do try to have their cake and eat it too. Many people are American when it is of convenience for them.

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I was trying to distinguish the legal aspects of nationality and identity and the cultural aspects and the heritage of who you are. To me, they are a big difference.

Its the same thing when someone is mixed between white or black. Nonone wants to say they are mixed. They have to be defined as Black yet they can't claim white. So basically mixed people have to deny who they really are for the sake of the LEGAL, aspects of identity. True, if your mixed, blacks want you to be black because in one example, politically he strengthen the voting power of Blacks if that person identifies with being black. Whites will say he is not white, because they still believe in that ancient rule they created, "One drop rule"

If your Black, African American, colored or whatever, you are still a black person of African decent, and you could never deny that. Arguing about the title is purely political.


It still does not take away who A-Rod really is. You want to challenge his claim or identity based on his level of financial or personal contribution to a particular culture. Thats bull crap.

people are American based on the law of what America say. When people claim american when it is convenient, it is most likely for legal protection of some kind.