August 15 1865 Dominican Retoration Day!!!

ronaldobklyn said:

This holiday celebrates the day independence from Spain was restored in RepublicaDominicana :tired: , I thought DR celebrates there independence from their next door neighbors at the begining of the year.
There are only 2 countries in the Western Hemisphere who do not celebrate their independence from a European Country ,DR and my family's country Panama. I know Panama celebrates independence only from one country but two countries?

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Maybe if Haiti was a superpower, the celeberation would have more meaning, but giving the status of Haiti, such a celebration would look kind of silly.
Without sounding disrespectful for my brothers in Haiti, the idea that DR won their independence from the poorest country in the western hemisphere and possibly the world is not a badge of honor or a symbol of pride.

DR understands what Haiti once was, but the rest of the world has no idea, they just see a country that never had anything, so, like I said, it would look silly.

Usually a country seem to be prouder when they won their independence from a bigger and badder nation.

Sancochjoe,


Your post sounds very convincing and logical but that isn't the reason for the celebration.

DR celebrates 1844 as their independence from Haiti and 1865 restoring the independence from Spain. Thus, the only country in Latin America to have 2 separate independence. DR is the only country in latin america that voluntarily returned to the Spanish colonisers giving all their rights in 1861.

BTW, 1822 Caceres gave Boyer(haitian president) the keys to the city of Santo Domingo(mutual agreement). Boyer achieved ultimate unity bringing the french haitians and spanish haitians (what we know today as dominicans)as one entity. Unfortunately Boyer took the property of the rich criollos and divided among the poor criollos which pissed off many well off criollos and out of them merged J.P.Duarte the rest is his-story.

Also it was during the haitian occupation that Boyer allowed african american to settle in Samana dominican gov't had nothing to do with this...He wanted every slave in the north and south america to be free. Do you see the threat and the arrogance of the haitian gov't during those time? Do you think the USA and the other super powers wanted their slaves to hear about free negros and many were more educated and civilised than they were, demanding African descendants asylum....The promise land was Ayiti...imgane if telecommunication was around during those times.


Important Dates


6 Dec 1492 Spanish colony (Hispa?iola).
1500 Crown colony
1511 - 1517 Audiencia of Santo Domingo
1520 Audiencia of Santo Domingo (restored).
20 Sep 1697 Partition of Hispa?iola; eastern part: Saint-Domingue
to France; western part: Santo Domingo remains Spanish.
22 Jul 1795 Spain cedes Santo Domingo to France
(Spanish administration continues until 1801).
13 Dec 1808 Santo Domingo reverts to Spain.
30 Nov 1821 Independence (Independent State of the Spanish
Part of Haiti in Colombia).

Dec 1821 - 9 Feb 1822 Part of Gran Colombia.
9 Feb 1822 Incorporated into Haiti.
27 Feb 1844 Independence (becomes the Dominican Republic)
18 Mar 1861 Reincorporated into Spain (Foolish Spain)
14 Sep 1863 Independence (Dominican Republic)(recognized 1865).
1869 - 1870 Failed government bid for annexation to the U.S.
30 Mar 1903 - 28 Mar 1905 U.S. occupation.
28 Mar 1905 - 1941 U.S. protectorate
29 Nov 1916 - 12 Jul 1924 U.S. occupation.
28 Apr 1965 - 21 Sep 1966 U.S. occupation.

sancochojoe said:

Maybe if Haiti was a superpower, the celeberation would have more meaning, but giving the status of Haiti, such a celebration would look kind of silly.
Without sounding disrespectful for my brothers in Haiti, the idea that DR won their independence from the poorest country in the western hemisphere and possibly the world is not a badge of honor or a symbol of pride.

DR understands what Haiti once was, but the rest of the world has no idea, they just see a country that never had anything, so, like I said, it would look silly.

Usually a country seem to be prouder when they won their independence from a bigger and badder nation.

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history is arbitrary, but only to a certain point

For some of you guys these things are "damned if you do and damned if you don't". There are actual historical facts, and not simple bragging rights, that call for Dominicans to celebrate both events.

The Dominicans had first declared independence from Spain in December of 1821 (Jos? N??ez de C?ceres proclamation of the so-called Hait? Espa?ol as a federated state of Sim?n Bolivar's "Gran Colombia"). This did not last long, as Haitian strong man Boyer, entered the city of Santo Domingo in February of 1822 and annexed the country to his. This lasted until 1844.

February 27, 1844 is thus, the independence from Haiti, which in reality should be the first restoration. In 1861 the Dominican Republic, once again and at the request of its leaders, became a territory under the Spanish Crown. On August 16 (not 15th) 1863 the Restoration of the Republic was officially proclaimed, from Spain.

If Dominicans were so hung up on trying to celebrate their independence only from a powerful nation (Spain) as opposed to from a weak one (Haiti), then why would they bother in celebrating 27 de febrero? The fact that they also celebrate 16 de agosto essentially means that without that redemption the country would still be a colony of some foreign power. Please remember that what is now the DR was also nominally part of France from 1795-1809. Dominicans don't pretend to celebrate their expulsion of the French since the credit always goes to the Spanish (even if Dominicans did most of the fighting on behalf of Spain), since power was reverted to Spain as a result of that armed campaign and not to a new indepedent nation (Haiti on the other hand had already gained its independence from the French in 1804).

- Tordok

I stand corrected.

I was responding to the post of "Why they wouldn't celebrate independence from Haiti" I wasn't stating fact just laying out a possible reason, if that was true.

Lat's get a few facts straight

I will not attempt to untangle "Quisqueya's" list of dates.

BUT you must understand that in 1844 the population of the eastern 2/3 of this island was less than 1/4th the population of the western 1/3. To say that the Trinitarios were battling against the odds is an understatement. Their victory was of some consequence in reality, and, therefore, worthy of all sorts of celebrations...

The "Restauraci?n" of 1865 was less of a feat, speaking militarily. Spain was the next to poorest nation in Europe, in disarray politically, and certainly incapable of agile management of the situation in Santo Domingo.

Let's let everyone enjoy what they may out of the occasion. No need to disparage anyone...

HB

Hillbilly,

Please correct me if I'm wrong but these are the dates most historians go by..I wouldn't want to spread bad information please correct the dates that you dont concur with.

But during those time the spanish side was smaller in size as well as in popluation and the french side was larger. The 2/3 which is now the DR and 1/3 present day haiti border was officially drafted in 1935 with the ok of Uncle Sam (US occupation). Thus, during that time 1844 the boundaries between the french and spanish side wasn't official which was one of the main reason why the two colonisers were disputing so much and later/present haitian and dominican conflict.

The "Trinitarios" indeed were going against the odds and were aided by their former coloniser but to say Spain "although the poorest country in Western Europe" couldn't defeat the dominicans is a total disrespect to the Spanish Empire.... Uncle Sam wanted total control of the Americas without intervention from Europe and came up with the "Monroe Doctrine" which expelled all foriegn from meddling in the New World which is the only reason Spain didn't repossess its poperty along with the habitants.

Fastfoward to present day the new re-drafted version of the Monroe Doctrine would be OAS

Hillbilly said:

I will not attempt to untangle "Quisqueya's" list of dates.

BUT you must understand that in 1844 the population of the eastern 2/3 of this island was less than 1/4th the population of the western 1/3. To say that the Trinitarios were battling against the odds is an understatement. Their victory was of some consequence in reality, and, therefore, worthy of all sorts of celebrations...

The "Restauraci?n" of 1865 was less of a feat, speaking militarily. Spain was the next to poorest nation in Europe, in disarray politically, and certainly incapable of agile management of the situation in Santo Domingo.

Let's let everyone enjoy what they may out of the occasion. No need to disparage anyone...

HB

Click to expand...

Quisqueya,
I had not even noticed your list of dates above my original post. It does seem accurate. I was responding to sancochojoe in his pejorative treatment of both Dominicans and Haitians by depicting Haiti as an unworthy opponent and a vicotry over them by Dominicans not worthy of celebration. His lack of historical perspective is thus revealed. Haiti was then a lot stronger than the Spanish Santo Domingo (or as you would call it, the Ozama Departement).

Hillbilly correctly gives a better idea of what the Dominican patriots were dealing with in the two separate processes of the independence and of the restoration movements. Spain was no longer interested in having to pour ever more scarce funds from their Treasury in an econimcally unproductive colony, so it didn't fight as hard as it otherwise might have to keep it under its posession. Haiti did see the Dominican side as part of their country, didn't want to let go, and had to be forcibly removed against the odds. The Dominicans did take advantage by the fact that Haitian internal factions were in a power grab and were therefore less organized at the time that the Dominicans finally prevailed in getting them out of Santo Domingo. Either way, the Dominican forces did end both the Haitian domination in 1844 and the Spanish reannexation in 1863. BTW, Santana reannexed the DR to Spain in 1861 precisely to help protect its people from the Haitians who were always intent on retaking it.

Your argument later loses credibility when you state that the French/Haitian side was larger in territory than that of the Spanish/Dominican side. This was simply never the case at any point in the history of Hispaniola, except when there was NO Dominican side as Haiti militarily occupied the DR side from 1822 to 1844. In population size yes, but the size of the territory has always been favorable to the Spanish side. Look at any maps since Columbus' arrival and afer each pertinent treaty. The US-sponsored demarcation of 1935 helped finalize disputes brought on by the ever expansionist Haitian side to a mutually accepted border. There were only a few kilometers still in dispute by then, not the whole border. You should know that this was only a diplomatic formality and not because any of the territorial claims of Haiti were actually valid.

Also, just like the Monroe Doctrine kept Spain away, the Haitians moved into the DR (technically the Hait? Espa?ol of the Gran Colombia) precisely because they saw that the Spaniards would no longer defend it. It took 22 years for Dominicans to organize and repel the Haitians, without the Spaniards.
- Tordok

Tordok,

Hmm!!!!!!!!!!!! You maybe right about the size of the territory. Let me get back to you on that one...

Now regarding Santana he did re-annexed the DR back to Spain to keep the Haitian military from invading but Spain at that time had lost interest in the DR(I think you mentioned that) and incorporated an abuse system towards the dominicans people which led to rebellions towards the Spanish emperor. Regardless Santana was conspiring against his own people to keep the Spanish emperor in control which I believe he was assasinated by dominicans because he was a traitor..

Haiti is known for ending slavery on the western side and wanted to expand under one nation to keep European colonisers from reinstating slavery...Toussaint Louverture managed to take advantage of the quarrels between Spain and France when Napoleon went on his crusade expanding the South of France towards Northern Spain which also expanded on the island of Hispaniola as well.. Spain afraid of being taken over by Napoleon's army declared all slaves free on the spanish side which of course T. Louverture and others walked across the border and claimed allegiance to Spain which drove the French back.(this is where the territory sizes comes into question). Afterwards, when the european colonisers came to an understanging Spain reinstated slavery on the spanish side and betrayed all the slaves which lead to Toussaint going back to the french side of the island.


Now with all this betrayal it was imperative once Haiti drove Leclerc and all of the european colonisers out of the french side that it was in their interest and safety measures to end slavery on the spanish side and drive the spaniards out as well....USA was a young independent country at the time and even received help from Haitians fighting against the British in Savannah, GA but when it came for Uncle Sam to recognise Haiti as a sovergein nation they refused and turned their backs on Ayiti...Remember not one european country recognized Haiti's independence until France was paid a very large some of money which Haiti finished paying around 1945 but wait it gets worse. During that era USA further crippled Haiti when she realized french and german businessmen posed direct threat to US presence in Haiti(WWI). Occupied Haiti for 19 years. Haiti never won its independence rather they purchased their freedom reluctantly because France had ships surrounding haiti to reinstate slavery..This was during 1825 just three years b4 Boyer was handed the keys to Santo Domingo...Now with all this debt and strongmen requesting cash/gold haiti had no chance to maintain themselves and the spanish haiti which led to Trinitarios forming and claiming themselves an indpendent state. So in reality haiti's independence in 1804 was not recognised by the international community and every coloniser was trying to get hold of that part of the island but haitians continued fighting against the colonisers then later among themselves...Petion in the south and Christophe in the North...Petion held allegiance to France and Christophe to England. The old game of divide and conquer which made it easy for the Trinitarios to conspire against an already divided regime...


Fast forward to present day...The media reiterates Haiti the poorest country in the western hemisphere and go on about so many coup d'etat and never mention why haiti is down on her knees and knocked down everytime she tries to get up and fend for herself. All of the countries she helped obtain their freedom look down at her and forget her contributions for their freedom. Her sister is tired of helping her out and barely has enough to feed her own children which causes her sister to lash out and even disrespect her laughing along with other nations of what she has become. Everyone look at her with pity and disgust and blame her for not doing anything for her children. Even her children have abandoned her leaving her without looking back trying to forget the pain and misery they've endured for standing up against all European soveriegnty. She knows that she is made out to be an example for others who dare have the arrogance to defend themselves and help others. Everytime the mention her name they reiterate the poorest country in the western hemisphere to remind you that this is your fate if you dare try to accomplish want she did. But some of her children will never forget and will fight endlessly to get her back on her feet and renamed

"La Perle des Antilles-La Perla de las Antillas"

Ayiti cherie, mwen damou avec ou pou la vie

Haiti querida, te amo y siempre te amar?

Tordok said:

Quisqueya,

Your argument later loses credibility when you state that the French/Haitian side was larger in territory than that of the Spanish/Dominican side. This was simply never the case at any point in the history of Hispaniola, except when there was NO Dominican side as Haiti militarily occupied the DR side from 1822 to 1844. In population size yes, but the size of the territory has always been favorable to the Spanish side. Look at any maps since Columbus' arrival and afer each pertinent treaty. The US-sponsored demarcation of 1935 helped finalize disputes brought on by the ever expansionist Haitian side to a mutually accepted border. There were only a few kilometers still in dispute by then, not the whole border. You should know that this was only a diplomatic formality and not because any of the territorial claims of Haiti were actually valid.

Also, just like the Monroe Doctrine kept Spain away, the Haitians moved into the DR (technically the Hait? Espa?ol of the Gran Colombia) precisely because they saw that the Spaniards would no longer defend it. It took 22 years for Dominicans to organize and repel the Haitians, without the Spaniards.
- Tordok

Click to expand...

Good posting Quisqueya!
Your historical data on this post is consistent with what I view to be the historical record regarding reasons for conflicts between these 2 sister nations and the fact that Haitians were betrayed by essentially everyone and continued to be exploited and coerced into serious debt by France for many, many years after independence.

You see, Haiti and DR have been enemies but are not 'natural' enemies. They were always "forced" to be enemies, by the larger geopolitical realities of the different eras when there were conflicts on other places. Haiti acted in defense of its legitimate fears of returning to be a colony via the DR (whether French or British, or Spanish, they knew it was not gonna be any better). Dominicans themselves had no intents on invading Haiti, but European powers did have intentions on using the DR to get to Haiti. Dominicans did react against Haitian domination because they felt it was alien to the their culture and felt more affinity to Spain, even if Spain was no better a ruler than Haiti was. These two countries should remain separate, but they should have closer, peaceful ties.

Your 'fastforward' part of the post, I have no comment since I am not sure what you meant other than we all should do something to help Haiti, which I agree with.
- Tordok

Tordok,

Wow you know your-story and his-story and most important inputting your own sentiments to come to your own conclusion. I like they way you've correlated world history and connecting the dots to how the events during that time effected la Espanola. Its obvious you are well rounded and express yourself eloquently with certainty....in a nutshell it was a pleasure reading you...

Well my last paragraph was off topic but it really relates to why haiti is in such a bad situation today. Knowledge of world history allows you to understand current situation abroad and home which will enable you to make a better assesment of current events...

The media/super powers uses the Pavlov theory to convince the mass to control there point of views on certain issues even if the individual believes he/she came to his/her own conclusion regarding certian issues or worse are not even aware why they feel a certain way....Haiti/DR are the experimenting ground for this theory.......

One has to seek and seek again until he/she finds the truth...

Ok, I did it again..way off topic...but read my last paragraph again..


BTW, your post hits everything right on the nail...DR/Haiti were forced to be enemies(Pavlov theory)...that was really food for thought...... In the present time the two will have no choice but to have better relations without foriegnors being the arbitrary but still remain separate countries. This will take a life time but its feasible..




..mesi anpil...

Tordok said:

Good posting Quisqueya!
Your historical data on this post is consistent with what I view to be the historical record regarding reasons for conflicts between these 2 sister nations and the fact that Haitians were betrayed by essentially everyone and continued to be exploited and coerced into serious debt by France for many, many years after independence.

You see, Haiti and DR have been enemies but are not 'natural' enemies. They were always "forced" to be enemies, by the larger geopolitical realities of the different eras when there were conflicts on other places. Haiti acted in defense of its legitimate fears of returning to be a colony via the DR (whether French or British, or Spanish, they knew it was not gonna be any better). Dominicans themselves had no intents on invading Haiti, but European powers did have intentions on using the DR to get to Haiti. Dominicans did react against Haitian domination because they felt it was alien to the their culture and felt more affinity to Spain, even if Spain was no better a ruler than Haiti was. These two countries should remain separate, but they should have closer, peaceful ties.

Your 'fastforward' part of the post, I have no comment since I am not sure what you meant other than we all should do something to help Haiti, which I agree with.
- Tordok

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Tordok said:

Quisqueya,
I had not even noticed your list of dates above my original post. It does seem accurate. I was responding to sancochojoe in his pejorative treatment of both Dominicans and Haitians by depicting Haiti as an unworthy opponent and a vicotry over them by Dominicans not worthy of celebration. His lack of historical perspective is thus revealed. Haiti was then a lot stronger than the Spanish Santo Domingo (or as you would call it, the Ozama Departement).

Click to expand...

That shows you read what you wanted to read, because you certainly didn't read everything I wrote. I wasn't implying none of what you said. I was speaking in terms of perception. I'm very much aware of the Contribution Haiti made in the past. Being they are the first slaves to mass an army and win their independence in the western hemisphere should not be taken lightly.

Thats why I said, "DR understands what Haiti once was, but the rest of the world has no idea, they just see a country that never had anything"

sancochojoe said:

That shows you read what you wanted to read, because you certainly didn't read everything I wrote. I wasn't implying none of what you said. I was speaking in terms of perception. I'm very much aware of the Contribution Haiti made in the past. Being they are the first slaves to mass an army and win their independence in the western hemisphere should not be taken lightly.

Thats why I said, "DR understands what Haiti once was, but the rest of the world has no idea, they just see a country that never had anything"

Click to expand...

All right, Mr. Sancocho
I acknowledge my misreading of your post. Sorry about that. I believe that most disagreements on these boards are the result of artifacts created by the medium -webposting- as opposed to an actual conversation, and that only a few times it's about the differences on the actual substance of the debate. But hey, I'm human and I do regret not understanding your underlying tone on the first reading and thus unfairly attacking your post. Peace.
- Tordok

Quisqueya,
It would be naive to just accept everything we are taught without questioning the sources and/or spin. It's sensible to try to understand the views from the other side of the same coin. I would not dare give an opinion about Haiti-DR relations without having read several different accounts of the same events, be it by Haitians, Dominicans or by others. We are not always going to agree on all issues, but if our methods of learning are honest, then chances are that whatever disputes may arise are honorable differences of interpretation and not just prejudicial rants.
salud!
- Tordok

Good job, Quisqueya and Tordok! Parts of this thread should be mandatory reading in Latin American history class.

It is true, though, that throughout history the Spanish side was always substantially geographically larger than the French side. I've seen some maps with even Hinche located within the Spanish side.