Scope of Haitian presence in the Dominican Republic

cap2000 · Sep 2, 2005

I noticed that many visitors to this forum do not
live in the Dominican Republic, so i will resume to
them a brief description of the actual situation in
Dominican Republic.

The Dominican Republic is facing problems that will not
dissapear overnight, and many of them do not show signs
of easy or short term solution.

Recently, as Oil prices rises, the economic situation of the
Dominican Republic shows signs of troubles, like many
economies that depend on imported oil.

Join this troubled situation with:

1- Massive unemployment.
More than 40,000 workers had lost their jobs in "Zona Franca", leaving
an estimated of more than 20,000 families without income.
In this country, there is no welfare programs for unemployment,
and jobs that leave, do not get back too easy.

2- perennial deficiencies in public services, aggravated by the
permanent denial state in which the "people at charge" live.

3- hefty taxes in every commercial transaction
to pay for the money stole by politicians and bankers.
(exactly as before)

4- Rise in the quantity, intensity and localization of crime.
Everyone has become a target for criminals, from the poorest
of the poor to the richest of the rich.

Not very enticing, right?

I'm worried because always that a human group face
problems, they look for a "Scapegoat".

I suspect that the massive illegal Haitian presence in
the Dominican Republic will become the "Scapegoat"
to many of the problems that our nation will face in
years to come.

If people start to believe that our situation will improve
overnight when every illegal haitian leaves this country...
then the real causes and solutions for our problems
will become untouched and hidden, very much to the
benefit of the real guilty.

Haitians should learn, for the welfare of all, to respect
the immigration laws of this country. This will require
to put in jail for long time all the people involved in this
inhuman traffic.

My question to this group is:

How could dominicans teach to haitians to respect the
immigration laws?
How could haitians learn that illegal immigration
produces a permanent damage in their legal possibilities
to live and work out of their country?

This harms not only them, but to every haitian.

This is, still, one of the countries of the world where
haitians could legally immigrate.

Historians keep warning about the rising number of
illegals haitians and the plan to create "haitians colonies"
in this country, where dominicans laws do not apply
anymore. They have even talk about the creation of a
"National Minory" and the balkanization of the Dominican
Republic.

Recently, OEA chancellor, Jos? Miguel Insulza warned
to the Dominican President, Leonel Fern?ndez about
the stress on the already troubled social system and
the real possibility that the massive presence of illegal
haitians will produce a rising social "resentment".

As irritation with the decaying situation will only get worse,
i do not see an easy solution, that keep everyone happy...
and "scapegoats" will start to appear.

i'll repeat again the main questions for which i'm looking
answers:

How could dominicans teach to haitians to respect the
dominican immigration laws?

How could haitians learn that illegal immigration
produces a permanent damage in their legal possibilities
to live and work out of their country?

KateP · Sep 2, 2005

That's quite a first post. I'll be short by saying that if Dominicans could learn to respect their own laws, then foreigners, including Haitians, would probably respect them too. Dominicans are the first to hire undocumented Haitians to do the dirty work and they complain that they're stealing all the jobs... go figure.

As for their possibilities, I expect that after living the way they do, they're only worried about getting enough food for them and their family. They don't waste time worrying about other factors that can't affect their inmediate situation.

Quisqueya · Sep 2, 2005

Well,

The dominican government needs to implement the law and respect it...Haitians can only get in the DR if dominicans are in on these illegal activities....

Haitian migrates that migrate illegally need to respect dominican immigration policies or face deportation...

cap2000 said:
How could dominicans teach to haitians to respect the
dominican immigration laws?

How could haitians learn that illegal immigration
produces a permanent damage in their legal possibilities
to live and work out of their country?

Mirador · Sep 2, 2005

Originally Posted by cap2000
How could dominicans teach to haitians to respect the
dominican immigration laws?

How could haitians learn that illegal immigration
produces a permanent damage in their legal possibilities
to live and work out of their country?

In order to teach and to learn, you need first to know how to read and write. A literacy program is the first priority. Then you need basics for a civilized society: food, health, education, employment, and respect of civil rights. Without these, to prevent illegal Haitian immigration to the DR makes as much sense as holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain from flowing into New Orleans after the levy has been breached.

"drove my chevy to the levy but the levy was dry..."

Quisqueya · Sep 2, 2005

Mirador,

I agree with you 200% but u know damn well that these type of programs well never be implemented...Neither government see the value of educating its citizens and will not spend money on something they believe will not benefit them today....You are dealing with two countries that manipulate the mass for personal gain...And the next person waiting in line is not thinking about reform but getting his piece of the pie..

Mirador said:
Originally Posted by cap2000
How could dominicans teach to haitians to respect the
dominican immigration laws?

How could haitians learn that illegal immigration
produces a permanent damage in their legal possibilities
to live and work out of their country?

In order to teach and to learn, you need first to know how to read and write. A literacy program is the first priority. Then you need basics for a civilized society: food, health, education, employment, and respect of civil rights. Without these, to prevent illegal Haitian immigration to the DR makes as much sense as holding back the waters of Lake Pontchartrain from flowing into New Orleans after the levy has been breached.

"drove my chevy to the levy but the levy was dry..."

Yari · Sep 2, 2005

You are absolutely right. this is exactly what happens in the US. Immigrants come in and work the jobs that nobody else wants for pennies and then people complain that they are stealing jobs :tired:

Yari

KateP said:
I'll be short by saying that if Dominicans could learn to respect their own laws, then foreigners, including Haitians, would probably respect them too. Dominicans are the first to hire undocumented Haitians to do the dirty work and they complain that they're stealing all the jobs... go figure.

cap2000 · Sep 2, 2005

KateP said:
I'll be short by saying that if Dominicans could learn to respect their own laws, then foreigners, including Haitians, would probably respect them too. Dominicans are the first to hire undocumented Haitians to do the dirty work and they complain that they're stealing all the jobs... go figure.

Sad...

but true.
Did you noticed that those that most "vivos" :bandit: are the
first to seize the opportunity to exploit their workers?

The worst is that because their workers face deportation in
any moment, they collaborate with their exploiters... :disappoin

Is exactly in this way that illegal workers tilt the balance, favoring
those employers that do not comply with the dominican labour laws.

More power to Law violators in this country!!!! :angry:
More power to the Frontier trafficant's mafia!!!!

As if this country needs to cheer criminals. People is already upset
at maximum with all the criminals that disguise as politicians and
bussinessman.

KateP said:
As for their possibilities, I expect that after living the way they do, they're only worried about getting enough food for them and their family. They don't waste time worrying about other factors that can't affect their inmediate situation.

That way of thinking and living converted most of Haiti in the barred land that it has become today...

aranoid:

NONAME · Sep 3, 2005

The sarter of the thread is under the naive assumption that illegal aliens are not aware that they are breaking the law.

Dominicans are fully aware of the consequences of their actions when they violate US immigration laws and haitians are aware of the same when they illegally enter the DR.

No lesson in law or respect is needed. Haiti simply needs to get its economic house in order.

concon_quemao · Nov 1, 2005

NONAME said:
The sarter of the thread is under the naive assumption that illegal aliens are not aware that they are breaking the law.

Dominicans are fully aware of the consequences of their actions when they violate US immigration laws and haitians are aware of the same when they illegally enter the DR.

No lesson in law or respect is needed. Haiti simply needs to get its economic house in order.

I definitely concur. the whole "how can we teach haitians," makes them sound dumb and inferior. i think this post was in bad taste. it was informative but the questions posed were in bad taste.

arturo · Nov 1, 2005

cap2000 said:
I

i'll repeat again the main questions for which i'm looking
answers:

How could dominicans teach to haitians to respect the
dominican immigration laws?

How could haitians learn that illegal immigration
produces a permanent damage in their legal possibilities
to live and work out of their country?

Let me have a go at answering your question. One way that will not be effective is the recurring example of Dominicans jumping on yolas and trying to slip into Puerto Rico.

Narcosis · Nov 1, 2005

cap2000 said:
Sad... but true.
Did you noticed that those that most "vivos" :bandit: are the
first to seize the opportunity to exploit their workers?

Who is the judge of who is good or bad? Do you know that illegal Haitian workers in the DR are no worse off economically than millions of Chinese workers in their own country, or millions of Bangladeshi workers employed by large US corporations?

Problem is Dominicans are the bad guys since we don't have the mean$ to defend ourselves on a global scale. We become the scapegoats of a larger problem.

Mr_DR · Nov 2, 2005

KateP said:
That's quite a first post. I'll be short by saying that if Dominicans could learn to respect their own laws, then foreigners, including Haitians, would probably respect them too. Dominicans are the first to hire undocumented Haitians to do the dirty work and they complain that they're stealing all the jobs... go figure.

As for their possibilities, I expect that after living the way they do, they're only worried about getting enough food for them and their family. They don't waste time worrying about other factors that can't affect their inmediate situation.

I don't agree with you...

Are you saying that just because your neighbour steals or kills that gives you the same rights to do the same too?

I think it is more about you choosing your own path and being at peace with yourself and among your peers instead of doing the unethical things that others do.

vlokje · Nov 2, 2005

The problem is very big.There are 10 Milions Starving Haitians.This makes it a very dangeroes problem.The Dominican Republic is too poor itself to solve the problem of more and more Haitians coming over.We would if we are starving rules or no rules.

Ogre of the Caribbean · Nov 2, 2005

Are any DR politicans publically calling for mass deportations of Haitians? (Illegal immigrant Haitians)

Would there be widespread support for such a move among the Dominican public?

I've read up to 1 million of the DR population is Haitian, is that true?

What % of the DR is made up of ethnic Haitians with DR citizenship? I know that there is a Haitian population with DR citizenship going back to the Haitian occupation. President Trujillo's mother Julia was part Haitian herself. Her Haitian relatives were born and raised in the DR and lived as legal DR citizens.

I know President Hippo was rumored to give Haitians citizenship to gain votes, but if you didn't count corruption, how difficult is it for a Haitian to get citizenship in the DR legally?

Mirador · Nov 2, 2005

joel pacheco said:
... how difficult is it for a Haitian to get citizenship in the DR legally?

Joel, it's easier than you can imagine. Check today's DIARIO LIBRE. The other day, the son of an acquaintance, who is being groomed for the Major Leagues, told me he had gotten a new birth certificate, which knocked two years of his age... To obtain a birth certificate all a Haitian needs is about 3000 pesos and a Dominican 'mother' willing to declare him/her as her 'child'.

Criss Colon · Nov 4, 2005

Like MOst Illegal Immigrants,The Hatians Are Just Trying To Move

A little higher up the "Food Chain"! The DR ,just like most countries faced will "Illegals" coming into their Country,are "Two Faced"!One face isd "appalled"
with the flagrant disregard of their laws.While the other "face" loves,and loves to exploit,the source of cheap labor!!
They (The Haitians)are doing just what I would do if I couldn't take care of my children in my own country,and had the means and opportunity to go to another country!
That said,I really hope the Hatians stay HOME!!!Thr DR can't take care of themselves!
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCc

Its_where_I_Belong · Nov 5, 2005

I had live in DR for 3 years: 1 year in East coast and 2 on the North Coast. I know lots of Haitian, but studying the social realities in DR I came to my humble conclusion: haitians are not reponsible to make DR what it is right now.

In fact: haitians that are living and working in DR are doing the jobs that Dominicans won't do:
-garbage collect
-construction work
-merchandise delivering

Every thing that is a hard or dirty job!!!! Now people make your own conclusions , mines are done!

NALs · Nov 5, 2005

Its_where_I_Belong said:
I had live in DR for 3 years: 1 year in East coast and 2 on the North Coast. I know lots of Haitian, but studying the social realities in DR I came to my humble conclusion: haitians are not reponsible to make DR what it is right now.

In fact: haitians that are living and working in DR are doing the jobs that Dominicans won't do:
-garbage collect
-construction work
-merchandise delivering

Every thing that is a hard or dirty job!!!! Now people make your own conclusions , mines are done!

You forgot to mention that Haitians work for substandard wages.

That has everything to do with this.

Where ever you live now, will you work for the prevailing wages of illegal immigrants?

I doubt it!

-NAL

bob saunders · Nov 5, 2005

My wife currently has a Haitian woman teaching French in her school and she pays her the same as she pays her Dominican teachers.

NALs · Nov 5, 2005

bob saunders said:
My wife currently has a Haitian woman teaching French in her school and she pays her the same as she pays her Dominican teachers.

Most Haitians are not being paid the amount it would have been paid to a Dominican. If this was so, Dominicans would have been hired much more often, because they would be willing to work at such wages and there would be no need to hire Haitians, until a Haitian capable of doing the same work comes in and does it for less.

The reason is evident in the lack of motivation many Dominicans have to do certain jobs, it would take more money per hour to motivate a Dominican to cut sugar cane than it does for a Haitian to cut sugarcane, and with the issue of illegal migrants, they pretty much have to accept what's offered to them, which is lower than what legal Haitians get.

In anycase, there is a much higher supply of unskilled and/or low skilled workers from Haiti than there are high skilled workers, such as the Haitian woman teaching French at your wife school. Your wife is paying her a premium for her good services, since I assume the Haitian lady is very good at her job.

I am pretty sure your wife would remove the lady if she was not doing her job very well, or at the very least give her another job position. But, apparently she is good and she is getting a premium to remain in your wife school. If your wife was to pay this lady at the prevailing wage, the lady would then choose her teaching jobs based on personal comfort (ie. travelling time to and from work, working conditions, etc). By your wife offering her a premium, she will for go the option of going to other schools to teach.

-NAL

Scope of Haitian presence in the Dominican Republic

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