The American dream and how it applies in the Dominican Republic

Rick Snyder · Oct 21, 2005

I am starting this thread as it was brought up, off topic, in another thread and I believe it is worth talking about.

The phrase "The American Dream",AD, seems to have had its first publishing in 1931 ( http://www.csustan.edu/english/reuben/pal/append/axs.html ).
This phrase has the word "American" in it only because it was The USA where such an idea could become a reality. If a person, through hard work and education, could acquire some money, own land and build a house, invest in the economy and insure that his family had it better then which was his before, could do that in the DR then it is possible that the phrase would have been "The Dominican Dream" but needless to say that has never been possible before.

Before the phrase was coined it was in the minds of the emigrants as they fled their native countries in the search for a better life in the USA. The reason those people fled, and still do, their native lands was and is because they were and are oppressed, ( Main Entry: op?press Pronunciation: &-'pres Function: transitive verb Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French oppresser, from Latin oppressus, past participle of opprimere, from ob- against + premere to press -- more at OB-, PRESS 1 a archaic : SUPPRESS b : to crush or burden by abuse of power or authority 2 : to burden spiritually or mentally : weigh heavily upon synonym see WRONG), in their native countries.

So what made the USA the place to search for the better life? Is it possible that the USA has a constitution that allows the people to take an active role in how their government is formed and functions? Is it possible that the people are allowed to follow any religion they wish? Is it possible that the people are allowed to openly say their president is stupid if that is how they feel? Is it possible that a lot of checks and balances have been placed within the government entities to help insure that nobody can get the upper hand? All of the above?

Now for those of you that live in the Dominican Republic or live elsewhere but are Dominican. Does the Dominican Republic have a constitution? Does it have almost all the same human rights that the US constitution contains? Are you allowed to take an active role in how your government is formed and functions? Are you allowed to follow whichever religion you wish? Are you allowed to say that your president or political leaders are stupid if that is your opinion? I will not mention checks and balances because not enough presently exist and those that do are not adhered to.

Dominicans, have you read your constitution? It looks like a lot of it was copied word for word from that of the USA in a lot of portions of it. It it possible that your forefathers knew that you needed individual rights and guarantees and applied them. Is it possible that your forefathers knew that a government by the people for the people was better then a dictatorship?

If the structure of the Dominican government is a lot like that of the USA then why is it that the phrase isn't "The Dominican Dream" and why do so many people risk their lives by trying to travel to the USA to live the supposed AD?
I would suggest to you that it is because the Dominican people have been oppressed for so many years that they acquired a sense of "fatalism" (Main Entry: fa?tal?ism Pronunciation: -"i-z&m Function: noun : a doctrine that events are fixed in advance so that human beings are powerless to change them; also : a belief in or attitude determined by this doctrine).

The Dominican Republic operates under a democracy in that the final count of the vote by the people determines who will serve their duties for the people. If you elect a person who only serves themselves then the blame is on you the voter for not researching the history of the elected official OR you knew their history but you didn't try hard enough to convince the other voters that this particular person did not have their best interests at heart. In other words a democracy demands that the people get involved in the political process. If you sit on your hands and do nothing, say nothing and demand nothing then nothing is what you will get.

Another thing, IMHO, that the Dominicans need to learn is how to organize and to do so effectively. It just seems to me that there is a better way to petition the government then to shut down the public transportation system to the many poor people that depend on this system to survive,( From the DR1 news 19 Oct 05)
"Political organizations as well as workers unions and popular front organizations are holding a 24-hour strike in the Cibao Valley".

Do you think the government officials are going to jump through hoops just because, through all your wisdom or lack thereof, you decide to hurt the common folks? Damn the political organizations as well as workers unions and popular front organizations who make the poor suffer more throught their stupid decisions.

Anyway, back to the original subject. The AD can be realized here in the DR but it requires a concerted effort on the part of the Dominicans. You have all the necessary tools and items at your disposal all you need to do is implement them and it all starts with entering the political arena or convincing the right persons to enter, getting involved by campaigning and speaking out and it ends with the casting of the vote. If the correct people are in office then the necessary rules and laws are passed to insure that the DR prospers for all the people and not just for a few.

THE MOST VOTES WIN THE ELECTION!

The Dominican women make up over 50% of the eligible voters in this country. If THEY were to organize THEY could rule this country. DEMOCRACY!!

This link is for you Nals as it is a very nice tit-for-tat by Americans as to what the "American Dream" is;
http://cellar.org/printthread.php?t=6717&pp=60
or this - http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/21/messages/588.html

He is the reason for this thread. He he

Rick:nervous:

:lick: :classic:

Ricardo900 · Oct 21, 2005

Rick Snyder said:
The AD can be realized here in the DR but it requires a concerted effort on the part of the Dominicans. You have all the necessary tools and items at your disposal all you need to do is implement them and it all starts with entering the political arena or convincing the right persons to enter, getting involved by campaigning and speaking out and it ends with the casting of the vote.

That's the problem, you will never get a "concerted effort" on the part of the Dominicans, they are used to poor treatment from their government and foreigners, so they're not going to change. As long as they have Beer and Music, then everything will be Ta-To:laugh: They endure no electricity, dirty water, lack of education, poor health system, rampid prostitution, etc.. and look not a peep from the masses. Now if you ban music and alcohol, then you'll see an uprising:laugh:

Rick Snyder said:
The Dominican women make up over 50% of the eligible voters in this country. If THEY were to organize THEY could rule this country. DEMOCRACY!!

Won't happen, dominican men are too macho and the women are used to being subservient, tolerated, used and abused. Guess what, not a peep from them, not one "burning bra" Look at em, they won't even go to the supermarket without a coat of make-up and sexy attire. They are concerned with looking Sexy and being treated to some dinner and dancing. Fine with me

I vote to "Leave Em Alone" and let's not try to instill an American Dream to the DR.

deelt · Oct 21, 2005

American Dream

While James Truslow Adams may have coined "The American Dream", Frank Lloyd Wright created the platform for its existence as the most influential architect known to the history of the United States. (http://www.westcotthouse.org/frank/bio_frankLW.htm)

Wright was the anti-thesis or urbania, the way of life for all Americans, be they immigrants or natural born. Urban existence during the industrial revolution and the depression was the ultimate of high class living. Wright changed the dialogue by romanticizing suburbia. Thus, the imagery of Wright's designs in the backdrop of an increasingly consumeristic culture, thanks to Ford and the Industrial Revolution, was the foundation for the new American landscape. The extension of this "new" American landscape as a "dream" was natural and flowed with Wright's own represention of his work.

The realization of this dream for the most part was unreachable for most struggling immigrants, regardless of race. This was even more so after 1929, the time of the Great Depression, at time when, ironically, Wright was at his professional peak. I guess this is why the idea of a dream sold so hard. It's the same reason Seabiscuit's win in the horse race also captivated all of America and especially the downtrodden.

World War II was the number one reason the prospects of all these Americans changed, especially, white American. The business this was brought to the country and the programs it implemented for those who served, primarily the GI Bill and FHA/VA home loans revolutionized the home buying process. Would I necessarity call this access or good advocacy? No. I'd call it good policy by smart people.

DR Connection

How do we translate this history to the DR (or anywhere else for that matter)? Through land access. I can't remember the title of this book that was published a few years back, but this book posits that the reason why most people are poor in developing countries is because they do not own their own land. Why? The process is too cumbersome because government, often the largest property owner, does not want to relinquish ownership.
The case still applied not DR not too long ago. The other issue is family disputes with the land that is available. (Women are often short-changed in this process). I know that in DR titling programs and even a land mediation court was establish to settle these things. But in DR the process is just way to ambiguous and still often goes to the highest bidder....Go figure.

Other Odds and Ends
While I agree that Dominicans can be disorganized. Personally, I think it is a front for those in power to retain control. I also think that Dominicans have an amazing capacity to do grassroots organizing (as in making sure you have a good turn out for things). If someone could just bottle that up and sell it, they would be rich for sure.

Rick Snyder said:
I am starting this thread as it was brought up, off topic, in another thread and I believe it is worth talking about.

The phrase "The American Dream",AD, seems to have had its first publishing in 1931 ( http://www.csustan.edu/english/reuben/pal/append/axs.html ).
This phrase has the word "American" in it only because it was The USA where such an idea could become a reality. If a person, through hard work and education, could acquire some money, own land and build a house, invest in the economy and insure that his family had it better then which was his before, could do that in the DR then it is possible that the phrase would have been "The Dominican Dream" but needless to say that has never been possible before.

Before the phrase was coined it was in the minds of the emigrants as they fled their native countries in the search for a better life in the USA. The reason those people fled, and still do, their native lands was and is because they were and are oppressed, ( Main Entry: op?press Pronunciation: &-'pres Function: transitive verb Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French oppresser, from Latin oppressus, past participle of opprimere, from ob- against + premere to press -- more at OB-, PRESS 1 a archaic : SUPPRESS b : to crush or burden by abuse of power or authority 2 : to burden spiritually or mentally : weigh heavily upon synonym see WRONG), in their native countries.

So what made the USA the place to search for the better life? Is it possible that the USA has a constitution that allows the people to take an active role in how their government is formed and functions? Is it possible that the people are allowed to follow any religion they wish? Is it possible that the people are allowed to openly say their president is stupid if that is how they feel? Is it possible that a lot of checks and balances have been placed within the government entities to help insure that nobody can get the upper hand? All of the above?

Now for those of you that live in the Dominican Republic or live elsewhere but are Dominican. Does the Dominican Republic have a constitution? Does it have almost all the same human rights that the US constitution contains? Are you allowed to take an active role in how your government is formed and functions? Are you allowed to follow whichever religion you wish? Are you allowed to say that your president or political leaders are stupid if that is your opinion? I will not mention checks and balances because not enough presently exist and those that do are not adhered to.

Dominicans, have you read your constitution? It looks like a lot of it was copied word for word from that of the USA in a lot of portions of it. It it possible that your forefathers knew that you needed individual rights and guarantees and applied them. Is it possible that your forefathers knew that a government by the people for the people was better then a dictatorship?

If the structure of the Dominican government is a lot like that of the USA then why is it that the phrase isn't "The Dominican Dream" and why do so many people risk their lives by trying to travel to the USA to live the supposed AD?
I would suggest to you that it is because the Dominican people have been oppressed for so many years that they acquired a sense of "fatalism" (Main Entry: fa?tal?ism Pronunciation: -"i-z&m Function: noun : a doctrine that events are fixed in advance so that human beings are powerless to change them; also : a belief in or attitude determined by this doctrine).

The Dominican Republic operates under a democracy in that the final count of the vote by the people determines who will serve their duties for the people. If you elect a person who only serves themselves then the blame is on you the voter for not researching the history of the elected official OR you knew their history but you didn't try hard enough to convince the other voters that this particular person did not have their best interests at heart. In other words a democracy demands that the people get involved in the political process. If you sit on your hands and do nothing, say nothing and demand nothing then nothing is what you will get.

Another thing, IMHO, that the Dominicans need to learn is how to organize and to do so effectively. It just seems to me that there is a better way to petition the government then to shut down the public transportation system to the many poor people that depend on this system to survive,( From the DR1 news 19 Oct 05)
"Political organizations as well as workers unions and popular front organizations are holding a 24-hour strike in the Cibao Valley".

Do you think the government officials are going to jump through hoops just because, through all your wisdom or lack thereof, you decide to hurt the common folks? Damn the political organizations as well as workers unions and popular front organizations who make the poor suffer more throught their stupid decisions.

Anyway, back to the original subject. The AD can be realized here in the DR but it requires a concerted effort on the part of the Dominicans. You have all the necessary tools and items at your disposal all you need to do is implement them and it all starts with entering the political arena or convincing the right persons to enter, getting involved by campaigning and speaking out and it ends with the casting of the vote. If the correct people are in office then the necessary rules and laws are passed to insure that the DR prospers for all the people and not just for a few.

THE MOST VOTES WIN THE ELECTION!

The Dominican women make up over 50% of the eligible voters in this country. If THEY were to organize THEY could rule this country. DEMOCRACY!!

This link is for you Nals as it is a very nice tit-for-tat by Americans as to what the "American Dream" is;
http://cellar.org/printthread.php?t=6717&pp=60
or this - http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/21/messages/588.html

He is the reason for this thread. He he

Rick:nervous: :lick: :classic:

NALs · Oct 21, 2005

deelt said:
DR Connection

How do we translate this history to the DR (or anywhere else for that matter)? Through land access. I can't remember the title of this book that was published a few years back, but this book posits that the reason why most people are poor in developing countries is because they do not own their own land. Why? The process is too cumbersome because government, often the largest property owner, does not want to relinquish ownership.
The case still applied not DR not too long ago. The other issue is family disputes with the land that is available. (Women are often short-changed in this process). I know that in DR titling programs and even a land mediation court was establish to settle these things.

The issue of land titles is a well known negative factor in the economic development of any nation. Unclear titles is endemic here, as is the case in much of the world.

However, the reason behind this I don't believe has to do with the system being cumbersome, though that may discourage some people. Rather, the habit of people being people of their own word. It was (and still is to a certain extent) customary for people to reach agreements based solely on oral understanding of what the agreement is/was, with nothing put in writing.

You can see this today in the small colmados, where the owner would give credit (vender fiao) to people based on oral mutual agreement that the debt will be paid. The same thing occured with purchases of land and often, one of the two involved in the agreement would change his/her original statements and create a conflict regarding who owns what land, how much of it, and where the boundaries used to lie. People have actually been killed over a few centimeters of land that was "stolen" by a neighbor when no written documentation is evident of either owner's titlement to such land.

In addition, there have been cases when two persons orally mutually agree to own adjecent peaces of land, and then one of the two would official make written delcarations of his/her plot, often violating the oral agreement with his/her neighbor.

All of this leads to unclear titles, constant disputes, and peasants getting shoved off their land, as occured all over this country, particularly during the 1920s as American businessmen came to the east to establish large sugar plantations by forcibly evicting peasants of their lands. This was done due to documentation of land ownership by the foreigners undermined any oral agreements between the peasants. Over the course of a decade, land owning peasants became day laborers working the same plots they once owned, but now for foreigners and for the purpose of export rather than local consumption, which lead to astronomical prices of foodstuffs all over the republic in the 1920s and 30s, often food that were once abundant in this country, but due to the monoculture became scarce.

Of course, that last bit of information would be suitable for another thread, but its show that land titles are a road block to economic development of any kind, but often the reason land titles are unclear were because of wrongful doings from the part of savvy investors taking advantage of a fault that was cultural (ie. agreements based on oral declarations rather than written).

-NAL

NALs · Oct 21, 2005

Rick Snyder said:
Now for those of you that live in the Dominican Republic or live elsewhere but are Dominican. Does the Dominican Republic have a constitution? Does it have almost all the same human rights that the US constitution contains? Are you allowed to take an active role in how your government is formed and functions? Are you allowed to follow whichever religion you wish? Are you allowed to say that your president or political leaders are stupid if that is your opinion? I will not mention checks and balances because not enough presently exist and those that do are not adhered to.

Yes, DR has a constitution.

Yes, it has the same rights as the US, because the Americans were the one's who wrote the DR constitution. The Americans even included their right to intervene in Dominican political affairs, interestingly I don't see any such right in the American constitution regarding other countries right to intervene in their own affairs.

Yes, albeit its not an even "distributed" allowance, but plenty of communities nationwide include public hearings and such with their local people towards their own governing of themselves.

Yes, freedom is religion is guaranteed for all. Some people might have a certain distate towards particular types of religion, but nobody's religious beliefs are officially prohibited and/or discouraged.

Yes, in fact, people often talk very negative of whomever is president and his/her administration at any given moment in time.

Rick Snyder said:
Dominicans, have you read your constitution? It looks like a lot of it was copied word for word from that of the USA in a lot of portions of it. It it possible that your forefathers knew that you needed individual rights and guarantees and applied them. Is it possible that your forefathers knew that a government by the people for the people was better then a dictatorship?

I can't speak for everybody, but I have read the constitution. Of course, not everyone reads the constitution, neither here, the US, or anywhere.

It looks copied because the American's wrote much of it.

Our forefathers believed in a democratic form of government. The problem was those who did not, in fact the Cibao has always been more democratic than anywhere else in the republic, but the east and south has always been much more dictatorial in nature. It's no surprise the Cibao has always been wealthier than other regions as well, and no surprise that most of the dictators came from the east or south and most of the elected presidents from the Cibao.

Rick Snyder said:
If the structure of the Dominican government is a lot like that of the USA then why is it that the phrase isn't "The Dominican Dream" and why do so many people risk their lives by trying to travel to the USA to live the supposed AD?

The phrase Dominican dream has never come to being because Dominicans today live with the same antagonism of times past. Historically, Dominicans have been subjected to invasions, destructions, revolutions, etc. Everytime calmness came, Dominicans started to work towards economic achievement above mediocrity, only to be wiped away in the next revolution or invasion, etc. For those reasons Dominicans developed the heavily ingrained pessimism towards the country as a whole, evident in almost everything.

For example, Dominicans believe that their form of speaking spanish is inferior to other forms, rather than different and often mispronounce words in the presence of foreigners in order to "elevate" their speach pattern from what they feel is inferior even when its not.

Dominican emigration has been identified as structural. That means, it does not matter how many jobs, how much wealth, or how much forward the Dominican Republic moves, Dominicans will be inclined to move out of the country. This is clearly evident in the hundreds of well paid, well educated Dominicans who despite living very comfortable, stable, and rather interesting lives opt for leaving the country. You hardly hear of impoverished Americans, those who have failed, those who have nothing opting to leave for Europe, where an impoverished person is much better off due to the generous social programs there. Hardly is that case there, but it certainly is here with the better educated and moderately wealthy.

Rick Snyder said:
THE MOST VOTES WIN THE ELECTION!

The Dominican women make up over 50% of the eligible voters in this country. If THEY were to organize THEY could rule this country. DEMOCRACY!!

Can you supply me a source that shows what percentage of votes in the United States are cast by women?

Also, what percentage of women are found in the American federal government?

I would like to compare with Dominican sources.

Rick Snyder said:
This link is for you Nals as it is a very nice tit-for-tat by Americans as to what the "American Dream" is;
http://cellar.org/printthread.php?t=6717&pp=60
or this - http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/21/messages/588.html

He is the reason for this thread. He he

Rick:nervous: :lick: :classic:

Can you supply me sources that are not based on people's opinions, but on facts that were researched by educated peoples in such fields of profession?

Thank you in advance.

-NAL

RHM · Oct 21, 2005

Nal0whs said:
Yes, DR has a constitution.

Yes, it has the same rights as the US, because the Americans were the one's who wrote the DR constitution. The Americans even included their right to intervene in Dominican political affairs, interestingly I don't see any such right in the American constitution regarding other countries right to intervene in their own affairs.

Quote me the article and paragraph of the Dominican Constitution where "the Americans" added that they can "interfere".

Scandall

deelt · Oct 21, 2005

In the 1920s Trujillo owned almost all and confiscated. The government has always beem a major land owner in DR. Some of the "influential" families were able to get some of their property back, if they were the right color. (e.g. PRSC members).

Lack of documentation, and as you say "savvy," in a property transaction is just simple corruption and abusive behavior. Essentially, taking advantage of the poor and their ignorance. And let's remember that this is just what was leftover after Trujillo's rampant confiscation.

I just remembered the book I refered to initially. The system for the Dominican Republic and other developing countries in Latin America is discussed in Hernando De Soto's, The Mystery of Capital.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0465016154/103-5434686-8510222?v=glance&n=283155&s=books&v=glance

D

Nal0whs said:
The issue of land titles is a well known negative factor in the economic development of any nation. Unclear titles is endemic here, as is the case in much of the world.
...

Rather, the habit of people being people of their own word. It was (and still is to a certain extent) customary for people to reach agreements based solely on oral understanding of what the agreement is/was, with nothing put in writing.

...
All of this leads to unclear titles, constant disputes, and peasants getting shoved off their land, as occured all over this country, particularly during the 1920s as American businessmen came to the east to establish large sugar plantations by forcibly evicting peasants of their lands. This was done due to documentation of land ownership by the foreigners undermined any oral agreements between the peasants. Over the course of a decade, land owning peasants became day laborers working the same plots they once owned, but now for foreigners and for the purpose of export rather than local consumption, which lead to astronomical prices of foodstuffs all over the republic in the 1920s and 30s, often food that were once abundant in this country, but due to the monoculture became scarce.

Of course, that last bit of information would be suitable for another thread, but its show that land titles are a road block to economic development of any kind, but often the reason land titles are unclear were because of wrongful doings from the part of savvy investors taking advantage of a fault that was cultural (ie. agreements based on oral declarations rather than written).

-NAL

Chris · Oct 21, 2005

I think someone wants to prove something. What do you think will happen if I write "What does the African Diaspora and the DR Experience have in common?"

Is it not possible for any american to discuss the DR on its own merits, or in comparison with anywhere in the rest of the world? Comparitively speaking somewhere more comparable? Sometimes americans just make me tired - they seem to think america is the be-all and end-all of everything...

To address the thread... The American Dream does not Apply to the Dominican Republic. Why? Because the American Dream is a Marketing Term based on the Development of the U.S.A. at that point in its Existence... They needed Immigrants y'know! They created a Dream to attract Immigrants. Yes, I do mean the capitalization of words. There is no other way to say it.

Democracy US style is not the only way of being for us in the world today. It is one way. It is sometimes successful. There are others. As humankind, we are still seeking for a way to be together on the earth, without killing one another, slaughtering the rest of 'em, or screwing up our living environment.

OK, consider this my rant for the week. Scandall, go to bed or go call someone OK! You don't have to reply

RHM · Oct 21, 2005

Chris said:
I think someone wants to prove something. What do you think will happen if I write "What does the African Diaspora and the DR Experience have in common?"

Is it not possible for any american to discuss the DR on its own merits, or in comparison with anywhere in the rest of the world? Comparitively speaking somewhere more comparable? Sometimes americans just make me tired - they seem to think america is the be-all and end-all of everything...

To address the thread... The American Dream does not Apply to the Dominican Republic. Why? Because the American Dream is a Marketing Term based on the Development of the U.S.A. at that point in its Existence... They needed Immigrants y'know! They created a Dream to attract Immigrants. Yes, I do mean the capitalization of words. There is no other way to say it.

Democracy US style is not the only way of being for us in the world today. It is one way. It is sometimes successful. There are others. As humankind, we are still seeking for a way to be together on the earth, without killing one another, slaughtering the rest of 'em, or screwing up our living environment.

OK, consider this my rant for the week. Scandall, go to bed or go call someone OK! You don't have to reply

Come on Chris...you and I have traded posts on enough threads to know each other by now...but you have a point...perhaps I am a bit reflexive when it comes to defending "the motherland"....I plead guilty...

Scandall
"The center of the universe"

Rick Snyder · Oct 22, 2005

Nals, to answer your questions from the other thread which should be here and not there.

The easiest way to give you a definition of what a democracy is is by giving you this link;
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/democrac

Notice that a democracy is a form of government BY THE PEOPLE, (all the people), as distinct from governments controlled by a single class, select group, or autocrat.
At no time, place or in any form did I ever say or imply that the DR does not have a democracy. It is a fact that you have a democracy but the problem lies in the fact that this form of government is new to you, Dominicans, and therefore you do not know how to use it to your advantage NOR do you know the amount of labor that must be exerted in order for a democracy to function properly. This labor or involvement applies to ALL democracies in ALL countries that have this form of government. A democratic society is one in which the majority of the population plays an active rather than a passive role.

All democracies have a constitution or similar document that sets the basic rights of the citizens. In a democracy, every citizen has certain basic rights that the state cannot take away from them. These rights are guaranteed under international law.You have the right to have your own beliefs, and to say and write what you think. No one can tell you what you must think, believe, and say or not say.There is freedom of religion. Everyone is free to choose their own religion and to worship and practice their religion as they see fit.Every individual has the right to enjoy their own culture, along with other members of their group, even if their group is a minority.You can choose between different sources of news and opinion to read in the newspapers, to hear on the radio, and to watch on television.You have the right to assemble freely, and to protest government actions. However, everyone has an obligation to exercise these rights peacefully, with respect for the law and for the rights of others. If you wish to have democracy, you must provide all the necessary elements to ensure that end. A democratic society is one in which the majority of the population plays an active rather than a passive role.

What you and all Dominicans must understand is that a democracy MUST have the citizens take an active part in its operation. You get from a democracy that which you give. You cannot sit on your backside with your mouth close and expect everything to be peachy keen. You cannot just cast your vote and go home and hope for the best. The responsibilities of a citizen in a democracy are greater then that. “Thomas Jefferson once said: “If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.”
Please understand that I am not saying that the Dominicans should follow the Americans. I am saying that you have a democracy which requires hard work IF YOU WANT IT TO BENEFIT YOU. Nothing more nothing less.

"The right of voting for representation is the primary right by which other rights are protected."-- Thomas Paine

President Bush at his inauguration echoed this sentiment: “America has never been united by blood or birth or soil. We are bound by ideals that move us beyond our backgrounds, lift us above our interests and teach us what it means to be citizens. Every child must be taught these principles. Every citizen must uphold them. And every immigrant, by embracing these ideals, makes our country more, not less American.””

"At the bottom of all the tributes paid to democracy is the little man, walking into the little booth, with a little pencil, making a little cross on a little bit of paper." - Sir Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill

"Democracy does not guarantee equality of conditions--it only guarantees equality of opportunity".- Irving Kristol

"Societies exist under three forms, sufficiently distinguishable. 1. Without government, as among our Indians. 2. Under governments, wherein the will of everyone has a just influence; as is the case in England, in a slight degree, and in our States, in a great one. 3. Under governments of force; as is the case in all other monarchies, and in most of the other republics. To have an idea of the curse of existence under these last, they must be seen. It is a government of wolves over sheep. It is a problem not clear in my mind that the first condition is not the best. But I believe it to be inconsistent with any great degree of population. The second state has a great deal of good in it. The mass of mankind under that, enjoys a precious degree of liberty and happiness. It has its evils, too; the principal of which is the turbulence to which it is subject. But weigh this against the oppressions of monarchy, and it becomes nothing." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787. ME 6:64
Unlike the DR the USA teaches their children starting in elementary school and into college as to how their government functions, the rights of the people and the importance of voting.

No universal form of democracy? True there are 3 forms of democracy as I know it. Which is best? I wouldn't have the foggiest idea but I have to admit that the form we have in the USA doesn't seem to be that bad. As I have never lived under a dictatorship I can't comment on that but from all I've read and from the older Dominicans that I have talked to I honestly don't think that I want to find out what it's like.

American dream a myth? From my 58 years of experience I would say it's alive and still kicking. You must understand that the American dream IS NOT a guarantee but the possibility is there. As mentioned before it takes a lot of work and at times some luck. Don't badmouth the luck portion because your whole life at different times relies on this little magic word. Did I reach the AD? I would say yes but I could also say I threw it away at least twice in my lifetime. But then again what do you consider the AD to be? As I have never put any thought into it until you mentioned it and as I am much older now I would venture to say that for me the AD is the ability to be free, I'm an American with no alligence to anyone if I don't want it, being happy, this has had its ups and downs through the years, and for me the most important is becoming a father which the Lord made me wait till I was 50 years old. I would have to say that the AD is different things to different people so with having said that you tell me if the AD is a myth or not.

Keith R · Oct 22, 2005

Rick Snyder said:
Dominicans, have you read your constitution? It looks like a lot of it was copied word for word from that of the USA in a lot of portions of it.

I've read it, as I have the US Constitution (and Brazilian, Argentine and Mexican, among others). Nals is in part right in that some of its earlier versions were heavily pushed by US interests. But not totally, for most constitutions in this hemisphere borrow heavily from the US Constitution for the simple reason that many of the founding fathers of the various Latin American nations admired the US Constitution, just like the US framers borrowed heavily from French ideas (before US ultra-patriots on the board attack, go back and check your US history).

But Nals conveniently ignores that the Dominican constitution has been re-written several times, usually without American ghosy-writers.

Now for those of you that live in the Dominican Republic or live elsewhere but are Dominican. Does the Dominican Republic have a constitution?

For those wishing to browse the current form (last amended 2002) of the Dominican "Magna Carta," as they are fond of calling it, go here:
http://www.georgetown.edu/pdba/Constitutions/DomRep/domrep02.html

Does it have almost all the same human rights that the US constitution contains?

Most. Check Title II, Sect. I, "Individual and Social Rights."

Are you allowed to take an active role in how your government is formed and functions?

Yes.

ART. 13.- Son derechos de los ciudadanos:

1. El de votar con arreglo a la ley para elegir los funcionarios a que se refiere el Art?culo 90 de la Constituci?n.
2. El de ser elegibles para ejercer los mismos cargos a que se refiere el p?rrafo anterior.

ART. 104.- Es libre la organizaci?n de partidos y asociaciones pol?ticas de acuerdo con la ley, siempre que sus tendencias se conformen a los principios establecidos en esta Constituci?n.

Are you allowed to follow whichever religion you wish?

Basically, yes:

La libertad de asociaci?n y de reuni?n sin armas, con fines pol?ticos, econ?micos, sociales, culturales o de cualquier otra ?ndole, siempre que por su naturaleza no sean contrarias ni atentatorias al orden p?blico, la seguridad nacional y las buenas costumbres.

Are you allowed to say that your president or political leaders are stupid if that is your opinion?

Yes, which is why Hippo was considered silly for ordering media people to be locked up for mocking him:

Toda persona podr?, sin sujeci?n a censura previa, emitir libremente su pensamiento mediante palabras escritas o por cualquier otro medio de expresi?n, gr?fico u oral. Cuando el pensamiento expresado sea atentatorio a la dignidad y a la moral de las personas, al orden p?blico o a las buenas costumbres de la sociedad, se impondr?n las sanciones dictadas por las leyes. Se prohibe toda propaganda subversiva, ya sea por an?nimos o por cualquier otro medio de expresi?n que tenga por objeto provocar desobediencia a las leyes, sin que esto ?ltimo pueda coartar el derecho a an?lisis o a cr?tica de los preceptos legales.

Hippo would try to say that the criticisms violated the diginity or "good customs" clauses, or were subversive, but everyone knew that would not fly in a court challenge.

Keith R · Oct 22, 2005

Nal0whs said:
The Americans even included their right to intervene in Dominican political affairs, interestingly I don't see any such right in the American constitution regarding other countries right to intervene in their own affairs.

You're being sarcastic, I hope?

The Magna Carta actually says just the opposite:

ART. 3.- La Soberanía de la Nación dominicana, como Estado libre e independiente es inviolable. La República es y será siempre libre e independiente de todo poder extranjero. Por consiguiente, ninguno de los poderes públicos organizados por la presente Constitución podrá realizar o permitir la realización de actos que constituyan una intervención directa o indirecta en los asuntos internos o externos de la República Dominicana o una injerencia que atente contra la personalidad e integridad del Estado y de los atributos que se le reconocen y consagran en esta Constitución. El principio de la no intervención constituye una norma invariable de la política internacional dominicana.

daddy1 · Oct 22, 2005

In my observation....

Is the Dominican or slash American dream even possible in D.R....when the one's who are supposed to protect and inforce it, constantantly violate it, or is it like Balaguar stated one time only a piece a paper?

If big time constitutional violators like hippo mejia, who clearly have stretched that paper thin during his presidency can walk and rome as he pleases, then what type of pull or power does the Dominican constitution have...if your goverment does not adhere to there own constitution or respect it, why should the people care to read it!

There just has not been a defender of the Dominican constitution yet, the PLD has not been able to do the people's work because once again the last goverment still did not understand nor respected there historical documents ...when the example starts from the top the constitution will again become strong and firm in Dominican sociaty...

miguel · Oct 22, 2005

There you go!!

Chris said:
To address the thread... The American Dream does not Apply to the Dominican Republic. Why? Because the American Dream is a Marketing Term based on the Development of the U.S.A. at that point in its Existence...

I was going to post one of my "looooooong" posts but I see that what I was going to say, you said it.

Btw, is there such "monster" as the American or Dominican Dream?.

Chris · Oct 22, 2005

Scandall said:
Come on Chris...you and I have traded posts on enough threads to know each other by now...but you have a point...perhaps I am a bit reflexive when it comes to defending "the motherland"....I plead guilty...

Scandall
"The center of the universe"

No problem, just messin' with you a little. Somehow I have a hankering for apple pie and good coffee this morning, and Barnes & Noble. Let me get out of this serious thread and get some work done.

Chris · Oct 22, 2005

miguel said:
I was going to post one of my "looooooong" posts but I see that what I was going to say, you said it.

Btw, is there such "monster" as the American or Dominican Dream?.

I think there is a dream Miguel.. just image what we would be if we did not have a dream. In the US, I experienced this dream as a drive toward a better material existence on the main... Not to generalize, there are many folks who have a strong drive to a better existence, not just material... With time, the American dream possibly became such an overriding 'drive' that some of the good things in life are overlooked by big business and possibly Government. Like real family values.. like time to spend with one's own. Life really is very fast there.

Here in the DR, I experience the Dominican dream differently. Good people are really really nice here.. Their dream is more focused on family, good values, children and the workplace seems to be more in balance with the rest of their lives. I'm talking about the elusive 'middle class'... working professionals.

My objection is simply against taking a concept out of the US, or anywhere else, and its application here, where the set of values seem to be very different. I do not see a correllation, excepting on a human level.

OK, have to get to work now.. really!

Tom F. · Oct 22, 2005

I have been teaching these same topics this last week in my government classes. Rick should be a guest presenter for my class. In graduate school I had a seminar class which as the one question all semester, "Is the US a democracy?" The answer is no, and no country in the world is actually a democracy. We strive to achieve democratic ideals. The US, the DR and the countries in the Western Hemisphere that were not colonized by the British have Constitutional Republics. Those influenced by the British have the other "democratic" form of government, a parliamentary system.

We just did the 6 purposes of government listed in the Preamble to the Constitution, and the every individual having worth and dignity, and the equality things take a great deal of time to achieve significant success. Those on the top enjoy the status quo.

Also, last year in Global History class I found a UN report about Latin America and the future of democratic governments. There is a unique situation where there are high levels of poverty and almost all countries have representative elected governments. You would think that if a majority of people are living below or close to the poverty line and the government was democratic, they would address the issue of poverty. A kid asked this in class yesterday concerning the US. So I asked if these constitutional republics are really democratic. Then we discussed what needs to happen to make democracy stronger.

In 1996 I did an independent study with the Dominican Studies Institute at City College of NYC on ?democracy? in the DR. I focused on Juan Bolivar Diaz book ?Trauma Electoral? about the 1994 elections and the elections of Leonel in 1996. My conclusions were similar to those I have read on DR1. Corruption needs to be reduced primarily by strengthening the independence and effectiveness of the judicial system. Also, the public education system must be a priority for any government of the world in order to truly pursue democratic government. This would also mean there must be a democratic economic system.

Tom F.

arcangel · Oct 22, 2005

Rick Snyder said:
Nals, to answer your questions from the other thread which should be here and not there.

The easiest way to give you a definition of what a democracy is is by giving you this link;
http://education.yahoo.com/reference/encyclopedia/entry/democrac

Notice that a democracy is a form of government BY THE PEOPLE, (all the people), as distinct from governments controlled by a single class, select group, or autocrat.
At no time, place or in any form did I ever say or imply that the DR does not have a democracy. It is a fact that you have a democracy but the problem lies in the fact that this form of government is new to you, Dominicans, and therefore you do not know how to use it to your advantage NOR do you know the amount of labor that must be exerted in order for a democracy to function properly. This labor or involvement applies to ALL democracies in ALL countries that have this form of government. A democratic society is one in which the majority of the population plays an active rather than a passive role.

All democracies have a constitution or similar document that sets the basic rights of the citizens. In a democracy, every citizen has certain basic rights that the state cannot take away from them. These rights are guaranteed under international law.You have the right to have your own beliefs, and to say and write what you think. No one can tell you what you must think, believe, and say or not say.There is freedom of religion. Everyone is free to choose their own religion and to worship and practice their religion as they see fit.Every individual has the right to enjoy their own culture, along with other members of their group, even if their group is a minority.You can choose between different sources of news and opinion to read in the newspapers, to hear on the radio, and to watch on television.You have the right to assemble freely, and to protest government actions. However, everyone has an obligation to exercise these rights peacefully, with respect for the law and for the rights of others. If you wish to have democracy, you must provide all the necessary elements to ensure that end. A democratic society is one in which the majority of the population plays an active rather than a passive role.

What you and all Dominicans must understand is that a democracy MUST have the citizens take an active part in its operation. You get from a democracy that which you give. You cannot sit on your backside with your mouth close and expect everything to be peachy keen. You cannot just cast your vote and go home and hope for the best. The responsibilities of a citizen in a democracy are greater then that. ?Thomas Jefferson once said: ?If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.?
Please understand that I am not saying that the Dominicans should follow the Americans. I am saying that you have a democracy which requires hard work IF YOU WANT IT TO BENEFIT YOU. Nothing more nothing less.

"The right of voting for representation is the primary right by which other rights are protected."-- Thomas Paine

President Bush at his inauguration echoed this sentiment: ?America has never been united by blood or birth or soil. We are bound by ideals that move us beyond our backgrounds, lift us above our interests and teach us what it means to be citizens. Every child must be taught these principles. Every citizen must uphold them. And every immigrant, by embracing these ideals, makes our country more, not less American.??

"At the bottom of all the tributes paid to democracy is the little man, walking into the little booth, with a little pencil, making a little cross on a little bit of paper." - Sir Winston Leonard Spencer Churchill

"Democracy does not guarantee equality of conditions--it only guarantees equality of opportunity".- Irving Kristol

"Societies exist under three forms, sufficiently distinguishable. 1. Without government, as among our Indians. 2. Under governments, wherein the will of everyone has a just influence; as is the case in England, in a slight degree, and in our States, in a great one. 3. Under governments of force; as is the case in all other monarchies, and in most of the other republics. To have an idea of the curse of existence under these last, they must be seen. It is a government of wolves over sheep. It is a problem not clear in my mind that the first condition is not the best. But I believe it to be inconsistent with any great degree of population. The second state has a great deal of good in it. The mass of mankind under that, enjoys a precious degree of liberty and happiness. It has its evils, too; the principal of which is the turbulence to which it is subject. But weigh this against the oppressions of monarchy, and it becomes nothing." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787. ME 6:64
Unlike the DR the USA teaches their children starting in elementary school and into college as to how their government functions, the rights of the people and the importance of voting.

No universal form of democracy? True there are 3 forms of democracy as I know it. Which is best? I wouldn't have the foggiest idea but I have to admit that the form we have in the USA doesn't seem to be that bad. As I have never lived under a dictatorship I can't comment on that but from all I've read and from the older Dominicans that I have talked to I honestly don't think that I want to find out what it's like.

American dream a myth? From my 58 years of experience I would say it's alive and still kicking. You must understand that the American dream IS NOT a guarantee but the possibility is there. As mentioned before it takes a lot of work and at times some luck. Don't badmouth the luck portion because your whole life at different times relies on this little magic word. Did I reach the AD? I would say yes but I could also say I threw it away at least twice in my lifetime. But then again what do you consider the AD to be? As I have never put any thought into it until you mentioned it and as I am much older now I would venture to say that for me the AD is the ability to be free, I'm an American with no alligence to anyone if I don't want it, being happy, this has had its ups and downs through the years, and for me the most important is becoming a father which the Lord made me wait till I was 50 years old. I would have to say that the AD is different things to different people so with having said that you tell me if the AD is a myth or not.

I am new on this forum, just one thought:

It seems that the American Dream is just that a Dream. Please show me how the americans have any idea what a active participation in the democratic process means. If they had any idea, wouldnt the education, health, and social security services be guaranteed for everyone. Neither would have they let the goverment lie to their faces about 911 or Iraq. Must of the United States Population is currently Dreaming.

miguel · Oct 22, 2005

But...

Chris said:
I think there is a dream Miguel.. just image what we would be if we did not have a dream. In the US, I experienced this dream as a drive toward a better material existence on the main... Not to generalize, there are many folks who have a strong drive to a better existence, not just material... With time, the American dream possibly became such an overriding 'drive' that some of the good things in life are overlooked by big business and possibly Government. Like real family values.. like time to spend with one's own. Life really is very fast there.

Here in the DR, I experience the Dominican dream differently. Good people are really really nice here.. Their dream is more focused on family, good values, children and the workplace seems to be more in balance with the rest of their lives. I'm talking about the elusive 'middle class'... working professionals.

My objection is simply against taking a concept out of the US, or anywhere else, and its application here, where the set of values seem to be very different. I do not see a correllation, excepting on a human level.

OK, have to get to work now.. really!

I really do not believe in the American Dream, or the Dominican Dream for that matter.

IMO, the "dream" is supposed to make the person happy and I know many people that have reached "the dream" and are more miserable than those that have not reached it.

Let me give you 3 personal experiences of the so-called "dream":

I reached the "dream" a few moons ago but does it really matter when the person who made it possible is not here to see that all her hard work and sacrifice paid off?. I have may reached the "dream" but I am not completelly happy. I may have the cars, the homes in the DR and in the US, the money in the bank, the kids in good universities, the 401k plan and all the other stuff that comes with the "dream" but I can not be completelly happy when I know that my brother in the DR needs my help, 100%, because of his handicap.

I have a brother who is a self-made millionaire, who says all the time that he reached the "American Dream" more than 15 years ago. But, as I tell him all the time, how happy is he when he is still getting up at 6am to tend to his businesses and not getting home until 7pm just because he "does not trust anybody with his businesses"?. How happy can he be when all he thinks is about himself?. How happy can be be when, after mom passed away, he distanced himself from the whole family and only worries about his wife and kids and nobody else?. Don't get me wrong, the guy is my idol and the person who helped mom install values and morals in all my brothers and sisters but I know that he is a very sad man. To him, and many others that I know, making money is more important than family. I am not trying to put him down since this man is one of the most intelligent and wise person that I know but he is not happy.

When I do not have to worry if the doctors in the DR are taking good care of my brother, when I see that my brothers and sisters are happy, when I see that my 2 wonderful kids are happy, when I know that my true friends are happy, then I will know that I have reached the "dream". As long as there's an once of doubt in my mind about a loved one having a difficult time or not being happy, the so-called "dream" can go to hell for all I care.

As you have noticed, I am a family man but don't get me wrong, I am glad that my hard work has giving me what I have. I am not unhappy about the fact that I can, I am and have, made a difference in many people's lives. I just put my family before me.

If reaching the so-called "dream" is only thinking about yourself and what you have, then not only that I have not reached it, but I don't want it. But if reaching the "dream" is trying your best to make your family happy at all costs and not worring where their next meal is going to come from, then I reached that "dream" about 25 years ago!!.

I guess that everybody has it's own definition of "the dream". The above is MINE. If you(in general) can live with yours, good for you.

Ps: having money does not makes a "dream" come true, being happy does!.

Rick Snyder · Oct 22, 2005

arcangel, as you are new I will tell you that this board is supposed to relate to the Dominican Republic and for that reason I won't go to where your question leads other then to say that the AD is in fact a dream, desire, wish or what ever you want to call it but it is possible. It requires work and desire. At the same time there are many Dominicans here that want life to be better for them and their families. Is the "Dominican dream" possible for them here? If, as posted earlier, the people in power followed their constitution, obeyed the laws, enforced the laws and were to truly have the welfare of the people at heart then yes,IMHO, the "Dominican dream" would be possible.

As these people in power don't want to obey or enforce the laws and constitution then what is a person to do? Well, as usual they can do nothing and whine about their lot in life because needless to say they DO NOT have the right to petition their government, voice their opinion, demand that things change NOR can they run for political office, take part in their local communities or express their opinion on TV, radio or other media.

What's that you say, they can do all of the above? Damn, they must be living in a democratic society. Then why in the hell haven't they done any of the things that their government allows them to do. What's that you say, they won't listen to your demands, desires and wishes? THEN CHANGE THEM WITH PEOPLE THAT WILL LISTEN!!! What's that you say, that takes too much work, I don't know how, nothing will ever change?

We seem to be right back to where we started, the perpetual circle. I have stated before,(A democratic society is one in which the majority of the population plays an active rather than a passive role).

Rick

FYI arcangel I must say that you don't seem to know too much about the USA with the false statements you made in your post. As your subject matter doesn't belong on this board and as someone has attacked the authenticity of your statements then I would suggest that you do some research on the subject matter that you presented.

The American dream and how it applies in the Dominican Republic

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