What's this about the Political Parties???

Texas Bill

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Feb 11, 2003
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When-ever has a "Democracy" condonned the parceling out of "Seats" in the Legislative bodies???

I always thought that these were ELECTED by the constituency!!

And this country has the audacity to say it is a DEMOCRACY!!!

I call it something else entirely, but can't print it here because it's too nasty by far!

NalOws---

What's your feeble excuse THIS TIME!!!!

Texas Bill
 

suarezn

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Feb 3, 2002
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The best party to belong to right now is The PRSC...

Since neither the PLD nor the PRD can win without their support they can ask for whatever they want and get it. There are going to be a lot of newly rich and others who will become even richer thann they already are...Isn't politics in The DR great?
 

Hillbilly

Moderator
Jan 1, 2002
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And this is precisely what the magistrate at the Central Election Board is talking about in today's papers. He says that they are even dealing with seats on the Supreme Court and the General Accounting oOffice as well as the Election Board....Lots of patronage to dole out...:p

Of course this is not real democracy, this is party-ocracy. It is a real close, kissin' cousin to gerrymandring. If one party is especially strong in one area of the country, it can offer to support an allied party in another area and help them (the aly) win that seat, and the ally pledges to support the other party in their region. During the last congressional and municipal elections, the deal made in Santiago was Sued for mayor--he was a shoo-in anyway--and Dominguez Brito for Senator. Most of us figure that part of the deal that got Hipólito to concede so quickly was that the PLD not put up a big fuss about the finagling of the Santiago senatorial seat. Nobody here believes that Méndez ever won the popular vote....:(

As suarezn has so adroitly stated, the PRSC is in a pretty good position and is working both sides against the middle. With popular resentment against the current administration due to take a major jump after the first of the year kicks in all these price hikes (I mean everything is going to go up) the PLD will need PRSC support to gain a measure of control within the Congress. On the other hand, the PRD is a party of idiots that follow the leader quite blindly, but Hipólito put the schnied on them and they will have to struggle and put their propaganda machine into overdrive to try and keep most of their seats--something that should never happen but will. The PRD wants to bring in those PRSC members that won't die before voting "White" in order to counterbalance the PLD attacks and logical upsurge in May.

A lot will depend on how hard the poor and middle class get hit with the ta reform. Gasoline, diesel, and everything else will go up...just how much is yet to be seen but I am sure that there are some economists out there that can give us a good idea.

HB on a rant..:D:D
 

Rick Snyder

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Nov 19, 2003
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Texas Bill I to was amazed at that article but I interpreted it to mean appointed seat were up for barter and not Legislative bodies because as you said they are elected. This is the reason the head of Department X back in 2001, as an example, is now the head of Department Y. It is a case of the crooks getting pay back favors for their crooked friends.

And to think 90% of the present incumbents are running for re-election. Out of those 90% I can assure you that at least 80% are as crooked as a dogs hind leg.

If the Dominicans don't elect new people into office in the 2006 elections then they, and us non voters that live here, are in for 4 more years of the same old.

Rick
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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Texas Bill said:
When-ever has a "Democracy" condonned the parceling out of "Seats" in the Legislative bodies???

I always thought that these were ELECTED by the constituency!!

And this country has the audacity to say it is a DEMOCRACY!!!

I call it something else entirely, but can't print it here because it's too nasty by far!

NalOws---

What's your feeble excuse THIS TIME!!!!

Texas Bill
TB,

notice the word I put in bold, italized, and underline in your quote.

The word is THOUGHT.

And as I have often said, what people THINK is almost always different from what things ARE!

This applies in the political arena as well.

Good night!
:rambo:
-NAL
 

Mirador

On Permanent Vacation!
Apr 15, 2004
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The DR political system actually works like a commodity market, where citizens votes are openly bought and sold, and political parties act as trading companies investing on the promise of future earnings represented by the graft potential of their participation in the future administration. Corruption is an integral part of the system, without it the system would collapse.
 

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
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Okay, let the debate begin!

suarezn said:
There are going to be a lot of newly rich and others who will become even richer thann they already are...Isn't politics in The DR great?
Well,

Can you really blame politicians for being politicians?

And to think that whenever a person is found of corruption, where do they head? Does the words MIAMI means anything. Where is Miami? Last time I checked US of A.

Hmm...

Why would the US of A allow corrupt officials to settle in their lands, not to mention that MIAMI is where the Trujillo clan went, to be received with what we can only call open arms.

What is my point?

That people are complaining here as if stuff like this don't happen in their "native" homes. Well, if that is the case, why does this comes to light?

If any of you don't want to read all these reports, just click on the first one, click on the video on the right and sit and watch. If this is happening in Washington, the place that does what it wishes with the DR since 1916, then what can be expected of the Dominican government which looks towards the Americans for ideas of how to run the country!

How deep is the corruption in Washington?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10268447/

Capital corruption?
Voters weary after wave of criminal charges coming out of Washington
http://rss.msnbc.msn.com/id/10256753/

Big spenders in Congress
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9389889/

Embattled Conn.
governor resigns
John Rowland may have faced impeachment over corruption allegations
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5241442/

American Dynasty
No shame: America imagines itself as an old meritocracy, but 2004 is shaping up as a banner year for another tradition—American nepotism
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/3606177/site/newsweek/

Halliburton operates in Iran despite sanctions
How do U.S. contractors legally do business there?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7119752/

Torture and wrongful imprisonment are US
http://msnbc.msn.com/id/3449870/

Ethical investigations soiling GOP’s image
Inquiries into Frist, DeLay come at a bad time for Republicans
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9455761/

DeLay money-laundering charges upheld
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10339329/

Voter disaffection an opening for third party?
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10286455/

Congressman resigns after bribery plea
California Republican admits selling influence for $2.4 million
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/28/cunningham/index.html

Former DeLay aide pleads guilty in bribe charge
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10143314/

Clinton rips ‘egregious abuse’ of Constitution
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10000996/

Top Gun's Tailspin
Randy Cunningham was a high-flying aviator whose taste for the lavish perks of politics brought him low.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10313613/site/newsweek/

Pentagon: Propaganda program effort to 'get the truth out'
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/12/02/iraq.newsstories.ap/index.html

Ugly times
Congress is more about personal attacks than debating ideas
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/22/morton.polls/index.html

Rep. Cunningham pleads guilty to tax violations
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/28/congressman.shouse.ap/index.html

The plot thickens
http://www.cnn.com/2005/POLITICS/11/28/scanlan.tm/index.html

-NAL:rambo:
 
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Texas Bill

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Feb 11, 2003
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That said---Well, NalOws

I will be the first to agree that the "good ole USA" ain't got the "clean" hands we would like it to ave.

BUT--- after all is said and done, the "politicians" know that if they "don't do right" or if they're too greedy. they'll get their a**es voted out of office come next election.
And another thingy, the government jobs may be filled by a bunch of "get-alongs" (you should see the answer I got on an inquery I made to the IRS!!!), BUT, at least they took a test to get the job and scored higher than those who didn't get the job!! Unlike YOUR system of giving thej ob to your brother-in-law, your sister or uncle, or "friend".
All in all you have to admit we're not QUITE as corrupt as you are here in governmnt activities. We do have a watchdog---It's called the Government Accounting Office and these guys keep the politicians from running away with the treasury. You ain't got no such thingy HERE and you desperately NEED ONE!!!
And, ALL government contracts are putout on Public Bid and the LOW Bidder gets the contract! NO_ONE can start a project that hasn't been approved by and funded for by the Congress. That's the way the Budget works in the USA, unlike here.
And, you oughta know better than to argue against me, I'll eat your lunch when I'm right! And my summation is RIGHT!!

So There.

Wow, we still friends???

The pot shouldn't call the kettle black, pardner, it'll come home and sit in your lap!

Texas Bill

BTW, you ever hear of the "Peter Principle"--Everyone is promoted to the level of their incompetency. Many times those are the ones who administer the contracts you cited in your references. Not everyone is as smart as they think they are. Get the point??? We got problems too. We just take care of the oneswho show themselves to be poor representatives of the constituency. They better behave, or we'll kick them out and get someone else.

TB

OH, and another thingy---

If the USA does with the DR what it wants to, Why the H*** do you let us??? Don't have the intestinal fortitude to say simply NO!!
Let's face it NalOws, The DR Government doesn't KNOW HOW to govern to the BENEFIT of it's PEOPLE, and that's a FACT. Read your own POLITICAL HISTORY!! And quit blaming the shortcomings on others. That's BAD rationalization, at best...

TB
edited AGAIN to add the last after re-reading NalOws' post. tb
 
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rellosk

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Mar 18, 2002
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Texas Bill said:
And, ALL government contracts are putout on Public Bid and the LOW Bidder gets the contract! NO_ONE can start a project that hasn't been approved by and funded for by the Congress.
TB, I agree with most of what you say except for the above. Wasn't there some fuss about some of the Halliburton contracts in Iraq not being putout to bid?
 

mondongo

Bronze
Jan 1, 2002
1,533
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Lol

Looks like someone just fell off the turnip truck.

Texas Bill said:
... We do have a watchdog---It's called the Government Accounting Office and these guys keep the politicians from running away with the treasury. You ain't got no such thingy HERE and you desperately NEED ONE!!!
And, ALL government contracts are putout on Public Bid and the LOW Bidder gets the contract! NO_ONE can start a project that hasn't been approved by and funded for by the Congress. That's the way the Budget works in the USA, unlike here.
 

Texas Bill

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rellosk said:
TB, I agree with most of what you say except for the above. Wasn't there some fuss about some of the Halliburton contracts in Iraq not being putout to bid?

rellosk--

I think your right. The contract was issued as part of the overall authority given the President under the "Wartime Act" or some-such. Personally, I think Halliburton should be required to re-imburse the inflated results.

Don't remember if the case is still before Congress or not. it has been a ig stink, I know THAT!

Texas Bill
 

Texas Bill

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mondongo said:
Looks like someone just fell off the turnip truck.

Don't think so...

I think that contract, like many others immediately following the end of the "War" were put out under an Emergency measure authorised by Congress. i son't agree with that method, either. Such ALWAYS leads to too many machinations by "Philadelphia Lawyers" in the Corporate world.

Guess I should have said "Normally, ALL bids----etc., etc., etc.---"

Mea Culpa...

Texas Bill
 

mondongo

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In Boston, we are still completing a project we call The Big Dig....essentially erecting a brigde and building a couple of tunnels under part of the open section of the city....it was supposed to cost somewhere near US$3Billion.....the cost is still escalating and above US$14Billion....the tales of corruption are legendary...
 

arcangel

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Aug 3, 2005
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Texas Bill said:
I will be the first to agree that the "good ole USA" ain't got the "clean" hands we would like it to ave.

BUT--- after all is said and done, the "politicians" know that if they "don't do right" or if they're too greedy. they'll get their a**es voted out of office come next election.
And another thingy, the government jobs may be filled by a bunch of "get-alongs" (you should see the answer I got on an inquery I made to the IRS!!!), BUT, at least they took a test to get the job and scored higher than those who didn't get the job!! Unlike YOUR system of giving thej ob to your brother-in-law, your sister or uncle, or "friend".
All in all you have to admit we're not QUITE as corrupt as you are here in governmnt activities. We do have a watchdog---It's called the Government Accounting Office and these guys keep the politicians from running away with the treasury. You ain't got no such thingy HERE and you desperately NEED ONE!!!
And, ALL government contracts are putout on Public Bid and the LOW Bidder gets the contract! NO_ONE can start a project that hasn't been approved by and funded for by the Congress. That's the way the Budget works in the USA, unlike here.
And, you oughta know better than to argue against me, I'll eat your lunch when I'm right! And my summation is RIGHT!!

So There.

Wow, we still friends???

The pot shouldn't call the kettle black, pardner, it'll come home and sit in your lap!

Texas Bill

BTW, you ever hear of the "Peter Principle"--Everyone is promoted to the level of their incompetency. Many times those are the ones who administer the contracts you cited in your references. Not everyone is as smart as they think they are. Get the point??? We got problems too. We just take care of the oneswho show themselves to be poor representatives of the constituency. They better behave, or we'll kick them out and get someone else.

TB

OH, and another thingy---

If the USA does with the DR what it wants to, Why the H*** do you let us??? Don't have the intestinal fortitude to say simply NO!!
Let's face it NalOws, The DR Government doesn't KNOW HOW to govern to the BENEFIT of it's PEOPLE, and that's a FACT. Read your own POLITICAL HISTORY!! And quit blaming the shortcomings on others. That's BAD rationalization, at best...

First and foremost I must say that Texas Bill comments really struck a cord.
And I must at least vent.
I was raised in DR and came to US as a teenager; I have participated in both democratic systems. The most precious principal that I could admire from good citizens all around the globe is personal responsibility.



BUT--- after all is said and done, the "politicians" know that if they "don't do right" or if they're too greedy. they'll get their a**es voted out of office come next election
.

Wow! Where do you live at? Maybe it is just my perspective but it seems the only difference is that US politicians are a lot smarter when it comes about stealing. I mean multiple investigations, indictments, arrest, and conspiracy charges against plenty of senate, congress and administration members are on the headlines today and that is just the ones you read about. The argument may be that at least they are getting investigated and I agree 100%. That the system is harder to crack would be saying the lesser of two evils and it starts to sound like a democratic election.

And another thingy, the government jobs may be filled by a bunch of "get-alongs" (you should see the answer I got on an inquery I made to the IRS!!!), BUT, at least they took a test to get the job and scored higher than those who didn't get the job!! Unlike YOUR system of giving thej ob to your brother-in-law, your sister or uncle, or "friend". All in all you have to admit we're not QUITE as corrupt as you are here in governmnt activities

Haaaa! I guess Dominicans have a more family oriented culture, what can I say. I mean something like 90%of Us senators get reelected I guess they are doing it right, the economy is growing steadily, gas prices are down, and the sales for the holiday season are expected to be higher than last year. Opps, I forgot, it was the senators who gave the president the authority to wage war and as a consequence 190,000 troops will have to spend their holiday season worrying about something else. I have to stop right there because that may be too much.

.
We do have a watchdog---It's called the Government Accounting Office and these guys keep the politicians from running away with the treasury. You ain't got no such thingy HERE and you desperately NEED ONE!!!
And, ALL government contracts are putout on Public Bid and the LOW Bidder gets the contract! NO_ONE can start a project that hasn't been approved by and funded for by the Congress. That's the way the Budget works in the USA, unlike here
.

I don?t even know were to start. Did I read Public Bid, WOW who bids for weapons and military equipment? It is Halliburton, the same people that are at the top of the administration. Did I hear Budget?, where is the money spent in Iraq and Katrina going to come from; not from taxes as more tax cuts are around the corner for wealthy ones. The president does not recognize Global warming to have scientific base. I mean common somebody is getting paid follow the money. As far as the IRS I will agree is the last defense against this corrupt system, although I will argue they are plenty of loopholes that these multinationals companies are using. And it?s all paid from tax dollars. Senators here don?t have to touch 160,000 dollars a year since all their expenses are paid by lobbying conglomerates. At the end of 4 years plus a couple of tips on stock prices you easily have 1 million dollars is that enough, guess not. Call a couple of friends, throw some money and get reelected that is another million easy. Most politicians in the US are wealthy to begging with, look at Bush and Kerry. I can go all night but it all comes down to this.

US politicians are not in any way less corrupt than DR politicians, US citizens are more responsible than DR citizens and there is the big difference.
Our political systems are a reflection of the societies that they govern. DR politicians like to pretend they care but truly they think they work to hard to try something else after 4 years, so they do what ever necessary to keep a government job, and milking the cow. Like most citizens that complaint about the economy and the electricity, however the colmados always have cold beer, and the Loteria tickets are always selling. It is just a reflection. The Us politicians like to pretend that they care but truly they think that they have work to hard taking all those classes at Yale and Harvard. And having to be this close to poor people that don?t have the discipline to follow the rules like they did, unworthy people that don?t share the same ?principals? as they do, and they will do whatever it takes to stop this ?less qualified individuals? to make any decisions. Like most citizens that complaint about gas prices and the fact that China is becoming too powerful, however, they drive SUV?s and don?t want to spend the time to educate their children.

Please Texas Bill don?t compare your child to his friend to make him change his behavior every good parent knows not to do that. Sorry I was not trying to tell you how to raise your kids.

The argument should be around raising the sense of personal responsibility of the citizens of all countries.
 

Conchman

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The non-bid Haliburton contract in Iraq was 'justified' since the company was the only one 'capable' of actually completing it.

That was the US Administration's explanation anyway.
 

Rick Snyder

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Nov 19, 2003
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As this is "What's this about Political Parties" here in the DR it seems, as usual, that everyone is getting way off track from the original post. I get so elated when someone brings out the truth concerning something here in the DR and because it's derogatory all the Dominicans start screaming, ranting and raving against the truth and pointing fingers at others instead of admitting the truth and being concerned with it. There are those that would say that I should be concerned with all the corruption within the US government and I will reply that , yes corruption is alive and well in the USA and yes I am concerned about it. What am I going to do about it? I will read the news, stay informed and use my power to vote, which I do, for my elected officials. At the same time we, the USA, have a number of checks and balances set up within our framework to help us control those things which are bad. We have many watchdog groups, news media and such political organizations such as the Security and Exchange Commission and FBI, and many more, to investigate matters and Grand Juries, Federal Grand Juries, Prosecutors and District Attorneys to bring these cases to trial. When a person or organization are brought to trial, and a lot are, the conviction rate is pretty good with a sentence of a fine and/or jail time. Those fines are placed back into the coffers of all the people and not into the pockets of a few. This is because of more checks and balances within the system that watches where this money goes. This is all due to transparency that was originally set up within the system.

In the Quote by arcangle, "The argument should be around raising the sense of personal responsibility of the citizens of all countries", I agree except that this board is about the DR so the argument should be around raising the sense of personal responsibility of the citizens of the DR. Having said that then I think I'll pick on NAL's post as it is there for all to see.

NalOwhs after reading your post and links, which have nothing to do with the original post, I will once again admit that the USA is not perfect but we do investigate and prosecute when wrongdoing is exposed. The first link that you posted, with its film which was reported by Joe Scarborough, who was a Congressman for 8 years, admitted that one of the reasons for this particular case happening was because of the slacking off of the investigative procedures of reporters such as himself and watchdog groups. As you started your post using this case then I would ask of you, what happened to Congressman Randy Duke Cunningham? In said article Chellie Pingree, the president of the group Common Cause said "The rules of the body are that they are meant to police themselves, but, as you said, here we got Duke Cunningham. He is going to jail, and nobody even filed an ethics complaint on him. And there was no internal ethics investigation". So this man did the public wrong, will probably go to jail, pay a big fine, lose his job and will never run for elected office again. NOW let us look at the case of the Deputado from La Vega Radhamés Ramos. Here is a convicted criminal who is running for public office again. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me!!!

So what are the reasons why a convicted public official can run for public office here in the DR? Is it due to a lack of apathy on the part of Dominicans, lack of transparency in almost every segment of the Dominican workings, lack of watchdog groups, lack of reporting and/or follow by the media or a combination of all of the above? The next question is do the Dominicans have a problem within their political system? If the answer to the second question is yes then you are on the correct pass by admitting that there is in fact a problem. Now to continue on the correct path requires you to take corrective action to remedy said problem.

Speaking of problems I thought I too would post a few links in order to follow Nal's example;

Court decides today if accused in rockash case will stand trial http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=7937

Prosecutors are told to keep property deed forgers from making bail http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=7926

DA seeks arrests of two ex- judicial officials http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=7909

Case of the forged official passports headed to court http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=7820

How many people will be prosecuted in these cases and or pay fines that will be placed into the coffers of the people? How many of these people will never be able to be in public service again?

Justice Minister blames the courts for stalled corruption cases http://www.dominicantoday.com/app/article.aspx?id=7818

Rick
 

Mirador

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Conchman said:
The non-bid Haliburton contract in Iraq was 'justified' since the company was the only one 'capable' of actually completing it.

That was the US Administration's explanation anyway.


Is it inappropriate to mention here that Vice President Dick Cheney was Halliburton's chief executive from 1995 to 2000? Is it uncouth to mention that Halliburton stock options held by Dick Cheney rose 3281% since October?