Looming water problem

Keith R

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aegap said:
"Cap Cana is a village"
-According to this article in the French magazine "L'essentiel des Relations Internationales," when completed, Cap Cana will have 15,000 homes and will be able to accommodate an average population of 40,000. I believe that number to be higher than the current accommodation capacity of the entire Punta Cana region. Cap Cana will be a community about six times the size of Sotogrande, with better beaches and a larger marina if I may add. How's that for sustainable upscale quality tourism!
and a looming serious water supply problem. How's that sustainable?
 
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KateP

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Keith R said:
and a looming serious water supply problem. How's that sustainable?

Actually, CapCana has many fresh water natural reserves (or holes) on its property. I don't have the exact numbers so I don't know if it'll be enough but so far they don't look too worried...
 

Keith R

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Perhaps that's the problem -- they're not worried enough yet. I've been reading up on the water supply issue in the DR for a Green Team blog, and have come across some recent government, development bank and aid agency documents expressing concern that "overbuilding" in that zone will soon seriously overtax the area's water resources. One of the things I'm trying to do at the moment is determine what, if anything, has been done in response to these concerns.
 

NALs

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Keith R said:
and a looming serious water supply problem. How's that sustainable?
For high end developments such as Cap Cana, the water supply will most likely be replaced with desalination plants, similar to how the electrical deficit is being taken care of with their own electrical generation, off the national grid.

The ocean is slowly becoming more integral in upper income tourist developments. For another example, look at the golf course in Puntacana Resort and Club. They use sea water (with salt and all) for irrigating the grass they planted, which is basically a new breed that survives with sea water.

-NALs
 

Robert

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I have also heard that some developers/resorts are looking into desalination technology as the natural water table has been depleted and is filling up with salt water.

Even if Cap Cana are aware of the problem, they are not going to make a PR campaign out of it, it's not in their best interest.
 

Chris

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Nals, you are simply wrong. You are so wrong that it is getting to the stage of being pathetic. Nearby us, another island has no natural water sources. Please check out the cost of living there. But, these folks are greening, planting, catching rainwater... and they will soon make something of their barren ecosystem which will reduce their dependence on desalination.

If you consider that it is fine to deplete or contaminate the ground-water, you are also saying that it is fine for the following to happen:

* drying up of surrounding wells that supply water for people and animals
* reduction of water in streams and lakes - do I have to say anything or are we going to invent fish in the future
* deterioration of water quality - have you ever drunk desalinated water on the long term? I have, when sailing. It is not good for you - no natural minerals you see - the dentists will tell you that you'll soon have a real problem with your teeth.
* increased cost to the consumer
* sink holes and land giving way under your feet

Here are some water basics for you, from the US Department of the Interior. They have put this together for school kids. Start there. And please, get some education before you try to talk about these issues.

http://ga.water.usgs.gov/edu/gwdepletion.html

Now, I'm out of here...
 
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Keith R

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Considering his advocacy of desalination in the context of the artificial island proposal, I figured Nals would pop in here and champion desalination as well.:tired:

Desalination tech is possible to use. But the energy demands will probably increase the costs of providing water to the community 20-30%. And there's the pesky little problem of proper environmental management of the hypersaline brine the process creates, which US-EPA classifies as industrial waste. Also doable, but not cheap. And once again, we must consider the Dominican context, where the track record in the proper management of industrial wastes is not exactly sterling...

I would think that properly designed rainwater catchment systems, like some of the other Caribbean islands use, might be a cheaper and less environmentally troublesome option, but I'm still reading up on those so can't yet vouch for their pluses and minuses. I seem to recall a discussion on this in a past thread, maybe I can dig it up.

Rob's right. The Capcana developers are not going to go around highlighting the problem, but they're aware of it. Question is what they're doing about it, and will it be enough soon enough.
 

NALs

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I will not go into a back and forth debate over this, it's rediculous that I have to constantly debate the same duet in what appears to be every thread!

However, I will respond to your most recent postings:

Chris said:
Nals, you are simply wrong. You are so wrong that it is getting to the stage of being pathetic.
You, as well as the rest of the DR1ers, are entitled to your own opinions.

Chris said:
If you consider that it is fine to deplete or contaminate the ground-water, you are also saying that it is fine for the following to happen:

* drying up of surrounding wells that supply water for people and animals
* reduction of water in streams and lakes - do I have to say anything or are we going to invent fish in the future
* deterioration of water quality - have you ever drunk desalinated water on the long term? I have, when sailing. It is not good for you - no natural minerals you see - the dentists will tell you that you'll soon have a real problem with your teeth.
* increased cost to the consumer
* sink holes and land giving way under your feet
Thank you for not putting words in my mouth by starting such statement with the word "if". However, I am not saying such thing.

1. Desalination plants would reduce dependence on the natural spring and/or underground river system that exist in the eastern DR.

2. Who in their right mind would use desalinated water for drinking? You are suppose to use such water for things such as washing dishes, cleaning, showering, etc. If its drinking water that anyone wants, I'll suggest bottle water. In fact, most of you guys already drink bottled and/or purified water via home purification systems and/or purified water sold by some enterprise.

3. The added expense of desalinated water can be controlled by not wasting water. Use water when you have to use it for cleaning purposes and afterwards, shut the faucet, fix leaky pipes, etc! The alternative is either to use sea water with salt (not good) or continue to drain the wells and underground rivers found in that region (something nobody wants).

-NALs
 
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NALs

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Keith R said:
Considering his advocacy of desalination in the context of the artificial island proposal, I figured Nals would pop in here and champion desalination as well.:tired:

Desalination tech is possible to use. But the energy demands will probably increase the costs of providing water to the community 20-30%. And there's the pesky little problem of proper environmental management of the hypersaline brine the process creates, which US-EPA classifies as industrial waste. Also doable, but not cheap. And once again, we must consider the Dominican context, where the track record in the proper management of industrial wastes is not exactly sterling...

I would think that properly designed rainwater catchment systems, like some of the other Caribbean islands use, might be a cheaper and less environmentally troublesome option, but I'm still reading up on those so can't yet vouch for their pluses and minuses. I seem to recall a discussion on this in a past thread, maybe I can dig it up.

Rob's right. The Capcana developers are not going to go around highlighting the problem, but they're aware of it. Question is what they're doing about it, and will it be enough soon enough.
That's nice Keith.

Unfortunately, this will not change the fact that desalination is an option currently being considered and most likely will be implemented.

-NALs
 
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Chris

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NALs said:
If its drinking water that anyone wants, I'll suggest bottle water. In fact, most of you guys already drink bottled and/or purified water via home purification systems and/or purified water sold by some enterprise.

-NALs

And where does this bottled water come from? Just perhaps from the spring that got killed when the ground water got contaminated with salt... If you get tired of replies to your posts, well, there are remedies.
 

Keith R

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NALs said:
That's nice Keith.

Unfortunately, this will not change the fact that desalination is an option currently being considered and most likely will be implemented.

-NALs
That's nice, NALS. But that doesn't change the fact that it will be expensive and problematic. ;)
 

NALs

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Chris said:
And where does this bottled water come from? Just perhaps from the spring that got killed when the ground water got contaminated with salt... If you get tired of replies to your posts, well, there are remedies.
Have you not been putting attention to what is ALREADY occuring?

Ground water is already becoming contaminated with salt in the areas of these tourist developments! For this reason the desalination issue has come into consideration! In addition to the depletion of the wells and such and the abundance of sea water.

Good thing the water sources in Valle Nuevo and other areas of the Cordillera are still in good shape, since the water in the bottles comes from, no it can't be???? :surprised

Of course, there are bottle water available in islands where drinkable water is none existent. This means that bottle water was imported from someplace that has spring water and/or non-salty water that has been purified.

Stop making life more complicated than it actually is. Solutions to most problems exist, given that people are willing to accept the price that comes with such thing. You cannot have your cake and eat it too, but you can have the icing!

-NALs
 

NALs

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Keith R said:
That's nice, NALS. But that doesn't change the fact that it will be expensive and problematic. ;)
Nothing comes without strings.

We have to accept things as they come, with strings and all!

Facts of life.

-NALs;)
 

Keith R

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You know, sometimes I wonder just what kind of economist you are, and certainly whether you've had any true business experience, given how quickly and easily you dismiss cost questions as if they don't matter...
 

NALs

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Keith R said:
You know, sometimes I wonder just what kind of economist you are, and certainly whether you've had any true business experience, given how quickly and easily you dismiss cost questions as if they don't matter...
It's not that I am dismissing cost questions, but that we are debating what would be a solution to the current problem.

I am presenting ONE of the possibilities that could be taken into account.

Notice, these are only POSSIBILITIES, given that we are not dealing with costs of running such plans, developing them, etc.

We are just presenting possibilities, nothing more.

If we want to create hypothetical situations where we can take other details into consideration, I will be more than willing to do so.

But, since we were simply brainstorming here, then I simply supplied a possible solution.

Who in their right mind would conclude that anything that has been debated here is the right solution without doing a cost analysis prior to making such decision?

If its ideas people want, I'll present them. If people want hypothetical situations where we take into account other aspects of such solutions, then say so in the beginning!

-NALs
 

Keith R

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I in fact did raise the cost issue, twice. You dismised it both times as if it didn't matter.

Nothing comes without strings.

We have to accept things as they come, with strings and all!

Facts of life.

Reminds me of a joke my International Economics professor told, about the three Phds trapped on a deserted isle with no food. One day a can of soup washes up onto shore. They get excited until they realize that they do not have a way to open the can. During their brainstorming about how to solve this problem, each approaches it based on the their professional inclinations. The first, an engineer, discusses the mechanics of opening a can. The second, a sociologist, discusses the history of toolmaking. The third, an economist announces that he has a posible solution! Beaming, he says, "Now, assuming a can opener..."
 

aegap

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Keith R said:
and a looming serious water supply problem. How's that sustainable?


One thing I dislike about the liberal arts/humanities type people: They get too emotional and love to dramatize, eg. presenting the issue more critical than it really is.


Please stop crying wolf.

A. The problem is not as critical as you guys are making it out to be; this ain't no Utah or The Caicos type problem, no where imaginably close to what the Middle East faces.

-Its all a matter of having to go a little further to fetch your water


B. The US$250,000.00mln planned aqueduct should take care of most of the problem


p.s. Pick a better fight -- Many of the issues you guys are raising are only generic/theoretical: eg. there's no significant (if any) fresh fishing done in that area.
 
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Mirador

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Both Cuaracao and Aruba have developed viable tourism without any local source of fresh water, depending only on desalination plants and water brought in from the mouth of the Orinoco river in oil tankers...
 

aegap

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Mirador,

...first let me praise you on your encyclopedic knowledge on just about everything (I was meaning to do that for a long time)...

Now the question: how much do they pay Venezuela for the right to that water..how does it compare say to the price of oil?
 

Mirador

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aegap said:
Mirador,

...first let me praise you on your encyclopedic knowledge ... Now the question: how much do they pay Venezuela for the right to that water..how does it compare say to the price of oil?

Not encyclopedic knowledge, I've been there, I've seen it with mine own eyes ;-), even tasted it! (the oily taste the tap water sometimes has in Curacao). Venezuela charges nothing for water from the mouth of the Orinoco. There's fresh water up to fifty kilometers out to sea from the Orinoco delta. It's there for the taking... By the way, Royal Dutch/Shell has its own tankers in their refineries in Aruba.