?Castellano o Espa?ol?

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Marianopolita

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There's an interesting debate brewing in BBC Mundo this week about Spanish. The debate refers to the word used to refer to the language. Should it be "castellano" or "espa?ol". For those of you who have never studied the history of Spanish (the origin) of the language the word "castellano" not only refers to the language but it also refers to the region where Spanish originated which is Castilla in Spain. Once the language began to evolve as an Iberian language with influences from other languages like Italian and Portuguese the word "espa?ol' came into usage to refer to what is known today as "el espa?ol".

Once again the purists have their say in this and argue that "el espa?ol" is not correct because it's not spoken in all regions of Spain exclusively and secondly the word "espa?ol" is a gentilicio. I have always struggled with the word gentilicio in English to find an equivalent but it refers to the natives of a particular land. For example Canadians= canadienses, Dominicans= dominicanos, Spaniards =espa?oles. These words refer to the nationality of a group thus "el gentilicio".

Some linguists say "el castellano" is the term used to refer to the Roman dialect that originated in Castilla during the Middle Ages or is a language that is spoken in that region in particular today. They also state that the term "el espa?ol" refers to the end result of that dialect which was enriched by other Iberian languages which is known today as "el espa?ol" and is spoken in Spain and Latin America. (I agree with the linguists and their ideology).

In the article it was briefly stated that in some parts of Latin America in the academic sphere the term "castellano" is used over "espa?ol". (This is completely true in my experience some of my teachers and professors would never use the word "espa?ol". Especially those from Argentina).

Keep in mind you must understand what certain linguistic terms mean. In this case dialect. I have seen some erroneous and individual interpretations of the word dialect in some threads on DR1 that are incorrect. For example Dominican Spanish as a whole is not a dialect. Certain characteristics of Dominican Spanish have dialectal forms (such as the sentence structure and grammatical patterns that are unique to and accepted in the DR and/or Caribbean Spanish). However, Dominican Spanish is not a dialect BUT el cibae?o is because it's a regional variety of a language (Spanish) spoken in the DR. I have discussed this aspect in other threads and I think some of you may have interpreted my posts as saying Dominican Spanish is a dialect. Certain characteristics of Dominican Spanish have dialectal forms.

Here is the link to the article. The debate is on for the week and BBC mundo will reveal the comments when they finish taking submissions. The question BBC Mundo proposed was:

?Usted qu? idioma habla: castellano o espa?ol? ?O acaso considera que ambos t?rminos son sin?nimos? (Which language do you speak or perhaps you consider both terms to be synonymous?).


Debate


-LDG.
 
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M.A.R.

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Love Espanol

Doesn't Castellano come from the region of Catalunia where they speak Catalan?? if that is so then it should only be used to refer to that type of Spanish or Castellano, if that makes sense?
"Espanol" should be used defenitly in Latin America because as they defined it "Espanol" came after the language acquired all the influence from other languages and here in America many other languages have contributed to our Spanish, like words from the American Indians and lately even English.

I'm surprised to hear that the purist say that "el espanol" is a gentilicio :surprised and to us here in America is our language so that's why I say they should used Castellano in Spain and Espanol outside of Spain.

-----ok Chiri I see my overlook. thanks.
 
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Chirimoya

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Lesley's post specifies that it is Castilla, not Catalu?a.

Usage rules here. Both terms are inadequate, one more than the other. I think some Spanish-speaking countries like Argentina call their language 'Castellano' as opposed to 'Espa?ol', while (most?) other places prefer the latter.

At least Espa?ol, even in the strictest sense of the word covers several types of Spanish, whereas Castellano is just the Spanish spoken in one region of Spain.

Come to think of it, that logic could render 'English' as an unfit name for the language... I wonder how the rest of the anglophone world would react to being told their language should be called 'British'?
 

xamaicano

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More often than not in Colombia and Peru people asked me if I "?Habla castellano? As a matter of fact, when I first started learning Spanish I was told that I would encounter castellano more often than espa?ol in latin America.
 

Marianopolita

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M.a.r & Xamaicano-

The first rule of thumb with languages is: don't use the internet as a primary source. Although there are some good links out there the best and authentic references are books or anything in book form. Secondly, wikipedia is known to have errors. If one does not know better s/he will take what is written as gospel. Lastly, they put "castellano" and "espa?ol" under the same definition and that is definitely incorrect.

Please read the article from BBC Mundo. What they have stated, a clear distinction of the two based on origin is correct thus sparking the debate.

As I stated in my first post I am pro "espa?ol" based on the linguistic definition. I rarely hear Latin Americans refer to Spanish in everyday speech as castellano except those who feel it's prestigious to refer to the language that way. I have heard people say hablo castellano but with "airs" and in a snobby tone. As well, some journalists insist on using the term especially on CNN en espa?ol.


Xamaicano,

Specific to your comment in Latin America it really varies. Some use it as a form of prestige and /or formality.


-LDG.
 
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M.A.R.

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I'm sorry Lesly I originally didn't read the debate very similar to wikipedia by the way. Ok so what am I missing, as a spanish speaker and not being too familiar with the spanish spoken in Spain my question is, except from reading some novels and watching tv, what is the difference between Espanol and Castellano?
 

Marianopolita

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M.a.r-

No need to apologize please. This is a friendly discussion.

Just to clarify regarding Wikipedia this definition is accurate for the most part but always check another source to compare. That's just my advice.

In terms of your question that's the whole debate. The language spoken today is the same every where (with regional varieties and differences) but do you refer to the language spoken today as "castellano" o "espa?ol"?

Do you understand people from Spain, Colombia, Argentina, Peru, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Chile etc.? I'm sure you do. The differences are regional expressions, slang and in some areas pronunciation but the base language is "espa?ol" or "castellano" (according to some).


-LDG.
 

macocael

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Chirimoya said:
Lesley's post specifies that it is Castilla, not Catalu?a.

Usage rules here. Both terms are inadequate, one more than the other. I think some Spanish-speaking countries like Argentina call their language 'Castellano' as opposed to 'Espa?ol', while (most?) other places prefer the latter.

At least Espa?ol, even in the strictest sense of the word covers several types of Spanish, whereas Castellano is just the Spanish spoken in one region of Spain.

Come to think of it, that logic could render 'English' as an unfit name for the language... I wonder how the rest of the anglophone world would react to being told their language should be called 'British'?

Exactly. English, using this logic, would be just as embattled a term as Spanish. What is English in fact and whence did it originate? Who speaks it these days? A Punjabi Sikh once told me, with complete seriousness, that Indians spoke the purest English. (Next time you go to a tailor in the States be sure to ask for a "shirting") The English language, like Spanish I guess, is a hybrid, so the purist argument is really moot in my humble opinion. First of all you have the original Saxon. Have you ever seen Saxon (Old English) written? You would think you were reading Icelandic. But Saxon is the original language spoken south of Scotland, and east of Wales. It bears very little relationship to what we call English today. Those other areas, and Ireland, which later become part of the English Empire, were Celtish, just as was Breton in France. Of course Celt and Saxon mingled a bit. Then came the Norman invasion in 1066 and the language took on Latinate terms via French. Later, during Chaucer's time, we get Middle English. The language is still very fluid and changing. Ever see Chaucer written out properly? Again, you wouldnt recognize it entirely as English, though it is beginning to look a bit like it: "Whanne that Aprille with hits shoures sote the droucht of Marche hath perced to the roote . . ." Then on to Elizabethan English, a complete hodge podge of unregulated orthography, grammar and vocabulary.

Once the Enlightenment comes along we have the likes of Johnson writing up dictionaries and literally formalizing the rules of English. But that English is still far different from English today. Or American, Or Indian English, Or Jamaican, etc. Language, like culture, if it be alive, is constantly changing. We use the term English, as we do Spanish, for heuristic reasons. It is a useful concept, though imperfect. Spanish is the better term, it seems to me, because it embraces all the countries where the language is spoken, whereas Castellano does not, though it has the honor of being the originary source.
 

Marianopolita

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Some responses posted on the BBC-

I read the responses submitted to the BBC as far as page 2. If you have a chance please read some of the responses. They are most interesting and talk about nationalistic views on both sides Europe and Latin America. The two below caught my attention.


-LDG.
_________________

"Soy chileno y en mis primeros a?os de escuela, aprend? el "castellano", luego la contradiccion cuando en el ramo de ingles al idioma castellano se le llama "spanish" o sea espa?ol. Para mi no son sinonimos porque en espa?a existen varias regiones donde el idioma regional es otro distinto al castellano. Esta indefinicion debe corregirse a mi juicio en homenaje a la que la mayoria de la gente que coloniz? america era de la region de castilla y nos dejo como herencia esa hermosa lengua desde mexico a argentina".- ivan ortega- pg.1

"El nombre correcto del idioma que hablamos es el espa?ol, no el castellano, desde el siglo XI en que el castellano tenia "algo de pureza", esa pureza se fue perdiendo con el devenir de los siglos. "El Canto del Mio Cid" que data del siglo XI, y "El Quijote" del siglo XV, sus expresiones literarias y su prosa en palabras NO SON IGUALES, en la ?ltima se denota un mayor cumulo de palabras producto de una combinaci?n de significados sacados del catalan, gallego, vasco, valenciano, arabe, castellano, en fin, con esa mixtura no se puede hablar de un idioma castellano en si, sino de un IDIOMA ESPA?OL. Por lo tanto, yo voto que el nombre correcto del idioma del cual yo hablo y escribo se llama ESPA?OL".- SARBELIO R JAIME B - pg.2


_________________

The responses above are found on this link --->Debate- responses
 

Tordok

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Great thread Lesley!

....I still browse this superb forum, however unable to stay tuned too long. Cheers to all!

- Tordok
 

M.A.R.

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Lesley D said:
No need to apologize please. This is a friendly discussion.

Just to clarify regarding Wikipedia this definition is accurate for the most part but always check another source to compare. That's just my advice.

In terms of your question that's the whole debate. The language spoken today is the same every where (with regional varieties and differences) but do you refer to the language spoken today as "castellano" o "espa?ol"?

Do you understand people from Spain, Colombia, Argentina, Peru, El Salvador, Nicaragua, Chile etc.? I'm sure you do. The differences are regional expressions, slang and in some areas pronunciation but the base language is "espa?ol" or "castellano" (according to some).


-LDG.
Great thread LeslyD

I think it should be called Espanol. Ok so there is no difference between el Espanol and el Castellano. Like some say French from France, English from England etc. so Espanol from Espana.
 

qgrande

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Great thread indeed!
M.A.R. said:
Great thread LeslyD

I think it should be called Espanol. Ok so there is no difference between el Espanol and el Castellano. Like some say French from France, English from England etc. so Espanol from Espana.

Well, that?s the whole issue, isn?t it? SOME (to use a Miguelism) in the State of Spain say that the language is from Castilla, and not from other parts of Spain, like Galicia, Catalonia, and the Basque Country. So in THEIR view it?s English from England, German from Germany, Catalan from Catalonia, Galego from Galicia, Euskera from the Basque Country and Castellano from Castilla. This is kind of weird, and not very consequent, because politically the same people often maintain that Catalonia, Galicia and the Basque Country should be more autonomous, and that the State of Spain exists of four nations: Catalonia, Galicia, Euskadi and SPAIN; then they do not speak of Castilla. Weird, huh?
Anyway, I agree that it should be called espa?ol too.
 

Marianopolita

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Same theme- new blog entry en BBC Mundo- 11/26/2007

BBC Mundo has been discussing controversial languages issues for the past two weeks, the reporter, Jos? Baig who is blogging decided it would be good to revisit an old topic that was discussed last year which triggered me to start this thread and explains clearly why he is choosing to address it once more. The question proposed again is "?C?mo se llama esta lengua?" This new blog entry is very interesting and once again it gives readers the opportunity to learn a bit about the origin and historical differences between the two terms and its definition. However, Jos? also clarifies that the overall theme of the blog is Spanish in the USA ("Como ya he explicado otras veces, el tema de este blog es nuestro idioma en Estados Unidos").

I have not yet read any of the new responses by the readers because they accumulate very quickly. Some Spanish speakers are very precise about what the language should be called. Some people are more formal, some believe using one term over the other is prestige but when all is said and done it's the same language. In the blog one lady is quoted as stating she says she speaks castellano because she wants people to know she is from Spain thus differentiating the way she speaks as opposed saying she speaks espa?ol. Another lady refers to the differentiation as possibly one being "la palabra culta" y la otra "un vocablo vulgar".

According to the blog the RAE defines the two words as synonyms to refer to the language:

La Real Academia de la Lengua trata a los dos nombres como sin?nimos y dice que las dos palabras se usan para referirse a la "lengua com?n de Espa?a y de muchas naciones de Am?rica". However, the debate continues among speakers, linguists and historians. I can understand the stance of the RAE, however, it does not change the opinion and usage of one term over the other by the most obstinate.

Here's one key point and very valid:

Lo raro, sin embargo, es que, seg?n los expertos, los que hablamos este idioma somos hispanohablantes y no castellanohablantes.

IMO language discussions can be interesting, however, I prefer to engage in them with people who understand more than just the basics and have a solid understanding of linguistic terminology thus making the discussion a learning experience and exchange of ideas. A language discussion based on assumptions, minimum academic experience, no real life experience and very little fact is a waste of time. The study of language is a diverse field and there are many branches of study, be it grammar, linguistics, dialectology, sociolinguistics, metalinguistics etc. understanding and knowledge is key to engaging in a good discussion.

Many of the posters who posted in this thread originally are still posting currently, therefore I thought it would be interesting for you to read the follow up blog entry by Jos? Baig. BBC Mundo | Los blogs de BBC Mundo | ¿Cómo se llama esta lengua? . I suggest reading my opening post before responding in the thread.

BTW- I use espa?ol to say I speak Spanish BUT when people ask me ?Hablas castellano?- I respond "s?". Why? Simply because it's the same language.



-LDG.
 

El_Uruguayo

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Castellano is the correct, espa?ol although accepted isn't a proper labelling of the language. As a spaniard told me in spain "asi que eres uruguayo, entonces tu no hablas espa?ol, hablas uruguayo." I responded with "la verdad es que ninguno de nosotros habla espa?ol, porque espa?a es un reino que tiene muchas idiomas (catalan, valenciano (same as catalan hehe), vasco, etc.), lo que hablamos es castellano. So for those of you that didn't understand, basically there are many languages in spain, none of them being "spanish", what is know as "spanish" is really castilian, or castellano. I've heard that calling the language "espa?ol" became popular during Franco's time, as casillian was used to unify the country.
 

Marianopolita

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El Uruguayo- too simple of a response-

The definition of espa?ol and castellano as the language spoken in Spain and Latin America as defined by the RAE clearly gives the historical perspectives which needs to be taken into consideration when determining which one is the choice of the speaker. As mentioned in my opening post and my current one #14 those who continue to debate the issue as to which is correct are certain speakers, some linguists and some historians. However, each term refers to the common language that now has 400 million + speakers.

Based on your post it seems like the Spaniard you spoke to gave a typical nationalistic response which reflects very little academic and historical knowledge of how the two terms evolved and why one is "considered" more correct than the other and out from this analysis why some people use one over the over. What is definitely incorrect is to state that you speak "uruguayo". There is no such language. What would be appropriate is to state that the expressions, vocabulary and regionalisms that you use are characteristic of Uruguay or the region but "uruguayo" as stated implies a distinct language which does not exist. This is a perfect example of what I mean by discussing language issues (you and the Spaniard) with a lack of sufficient linguistic, academic and historical knowledge. If you spoke "uruguayo" how come he was able to understand you? If "your" Spanish was so much different from his you should not have been able to communicate with each other.

My suggestion is you do your own reading (if you have not yet already) on the subject matter and not only base your knowledge on what someone told you especially if their knowledge boundary is very limited. There's an excellent link to the RAE definition in the blog as well as a wealth of informative references that you can consult. Ascertaining more information will give you a better understanding of the debate at hand and you can decide if you prefer to use espa?ol or castellano or both.



PD. s/b "muchos idiomas"



-LDG.
 

Norma Rosa

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Good thread. It provides me (and others) with the opportunity to examine this issue, which is more controversial in Spain than in the rest of the Spanish-speaking world.
IMO, those that insist in calling our language castellano, do so either out of a snobbish attitude, perhaps out of ignorance, or simply out of habit. Some say “I speak Castilian Spanish,” meaning by that “proper” Spanish. It goes hand in hand with “I speak “Brittish” English, thus placing American English at a lower level.

Espa?ol and castellano are synonym terms (IMO) and as such have been used for ages. To discuss both terms etymologically will take us nowhere. In Spain, most people say castellano to distinguish it from other languages also spoken there. But they use espa?ol to distinguish it from other languages outside the Spanish territory.
The Spanish constitution uses the term castellano while the state-owned Real Academia Espanola, the institution that governs the language, uses the term espa?ol. A paradox? The terms can be used interchangeably. Amado Alonso (Castellano, espanol, idioma nacional, Buenos Aires, 1938) states: The term “lengua espanola” used in the Middle Ages par exclusivist excellence has, since XVI, absolute justification and it is above the Castilian language.”

espa?ol:
Lengua com?n de Espa?a y de muchas naciones de Am?rica, hablada tambi?n como propia en otras partes del mundo.
Real Academia Espa?ola ? Todos los derechos reservados
Castellano:
1.m. Lengua espa?ola, especialmente cuando se quiere introducir una distinci?n respecto a otras lenguas habladas tambi?n como propias en Espa?a.
2. m. Dialecto rom?nico nacido en Castilla la Vieja, del que tuvo su origen la lengua espa?ola.
3. m. Variedad de la lengua espa?ola hablada modernamente en Castilla la Vieja.
Real Academia Espa?ola ? Todos los derechos reservados

CONSTITUCI?N ESPA?OLA (1978)
T?tulo preliminar.
Art?culo 3.
1. El castellano es la lengua espa?ola oficial del Estado. Todos los espa?oles tienen el deber de conocerla y el derecho a usarla.
2. Las dem?s lenguas espa?olas ser?n tambi?n oficiales en las respectivas Comunidades Aut?nomas de acuerdo con sus Estatutos.
3. La riqueza de las distintas modalidades ling??sticas de Espa?a es un patrimonio cultural que ser? objeto de especial respeto y protecci?n.


Norma
 

Marianopolita

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Chevere-

Good post Norma and it reinforces my posts #14 & #16. The only aspect I would like to point out in your post is that discussing the terms etymologically is necessary for understanding how they evolved but not to dispute the fact that they are synonyms. I think that is key here. For those who don't do any research and rely on hearsay, it's important to understand the origin and evolution of each term which both refer to the Spanish language today.


-LDG.


Espa?ol and castellano are synonym terms (IMO) and as such have been used for ages. To discuss both terms etymologically will take us nowhere.

Norma
 

asopao

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I say " castellano". Castellano is not just " Spanish from Spain", many people have that misconception. In Cuba is Castillian, in Venezuela is Castilian, in DR, in Ecuador, in Chile, all Latin America, the language is " Castillian" !

The only reason Castillian is referred by " espa?ol" by some people, is because it became " lingua franca" of all of Spain. If Catalonia were the lingua franca, then it would be called " espa?ol" too. :tired:

So, if the Spanish government decides tomorrow to turn Catalan into " lingua franca", and people started to call Catalan by " espa?ol". Then you go to Panama, Peru, Mexico etc, and be speaking Catalan to people, they'll tell you that " You are not speaking Castillian". So there you have it.

Bottom line, Castillian is just one of several Spanish languages, which includes Catalan and Basque ( Euskadi). Catalan is a " Spanish " language. That doesn't mean they'll hijack the name of the entire country ( gentilicio) and give it to their language. no se?or ! Catalan people are aware of that.
 
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