I saw this commercial last night about the Dominican Armed Forces and it got me thinking how effective is the Dominican Armed Forces protecting the island from possible (if any) threats and how effective is the military in general for any type of conflict wether its foreign or civil.
- Thread starter Joshua R
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Dominican Military
LUMUMBA (LUMBAGO);
It is a foregone conclusion that you are a paid foreign agent bent on creating unrest amoung the population of the Dominican Republic.
Your posts, both here and in other threads on DR1 are designed to subvert the sovereignty of this Nation.
Better be careful, cause the Big Bad Man will surely catch up with you soon.
Texas Bill
It is a foregone conclusion that you are a paid foreign agent bent on creating unrest amoung the population of the Dominican Republic.
Your posts, both here and in other threads on DR1 are designed to subvert the sovereignty of this Nation.
Better be careful, cause the Big Bad Man will surely catch up with you soon.
Texas Bill
Joshua R said:
I would not use the wordings and arguments of Lumumba, but I think you can rest assured that the Dominican Repubic does not really need an army to safeguard its sovereignty against foreign invaders. What was the last time in the Western hemisphere a country invaded another one? It surely must have had to do with the Cold War which is no more. Invasion of one country by another is extremely rare nowadays. When it happened with Kuwait by Iraq, not just the US with oil interests there, but countries around the world were ready to contribute to its liberation. We live in a world were wars are either internal guerilla or separatist affairs, or globalised networks.
In my humble opinion it is slightly ridiculous to ridicule the construction of a Metro in Santo Domingo and at the same time condone heavy investment in a Dominican army. Both are no priorities for a country like the DR.
What was the last time in the Western hemisphere a country invaded another one? It surely must have had to do with the Cold War which is no more.
Hummm, Argentina in the Falklands? Paragua and Bolivia in the Chaco War in the mid-30s? Guatemala bombing Belize back in 1950?
Hummmmm, Honduaras vs El Salvador..the Soccer War?
Honduars vs Nicaragua...........the Contras?
Obviously the DR does not need an Army. They represent an albatross around the neck of the economy.
The Navy and the Air Force are insignificant and also of little use. Certainly the sovereignty of the Nation is not at stake. One military advisor once told me that the Haitian army doesn't have the fuel to get to the border, much less cross it!!
I firmly think that one of the reasons that Juan Bosch was overthrown in '63 was the fact that he was very close to Pepe Figueres of Costa Rica, a man who had disbanded the Costa Rican army!!
HB
Hummm, Argentina in the Falklands? Paragua and Bolivia in the Chaco War in the mid-30s? Guatemala bombing Belize back in 1950?
Hummmmm, Honduaras vs El Salvador..the Soccer War?
Honduars vs Nicaragua...........the Contras?
Obviously the DR does not need an Army. They represent an albatross around the neck of the economy.
The Navy and the Air Force are insignificant and also of little use. Certainly the sovereignty of the Nation is not at stake. One military advisor once told me that the Haitian army doesn't have the fuel to get to the border, much less cross it!!
I firmly think that one of the reasons that Juan Bosch was overthrown in '63 was the fact that he was very close to Pepe Figueres of Costa Rica, a man who had disbanded the Costa Rican army!!
HB
Hillbilly said:What was the last time in the Western hemisphere a country invaded another one? It surely must have had to do with the Cold War which is no more.
Hummm, Argentina in the Falklands? Paragua and Bolivia in the Chaco War in the mid-30s? Guatemala bombing Belize back in 1950?
Hummmmm, Honduaras vs El Salvador..the Soccer War?
Honduars vs Nicaragua...........the Contras?
Obviously the DR does not need an Army. They represent an albatross around the neck of the economy.
The Navy and the Air Force are insignificant and also of little use. Certainly the sovereignty of the Nation is not at stake. One military advisor once told me that the Haitian army doesn't have the fuel to get to the border, much less cross it!!
I firmly think that one of the reasons that Juan Bosch was overthrown in '63 was the fact that he was very close to Pepe Figueres of Costa Rica, a man who had disbanded the Costa Rican army!!
HB
There is no Haitian Army. The Haitian army was disbanded by Aristide upon his restoration to power by 20,000 US troops in 1994. It was replaced by an inefficient, poorly-equipped and poorly-trained police force of 5,000.
In light of the postings thus far obsaeved, it would be correct to say that the DR Military is, at best, an inconvenience to the Dominican people and should be disbanded or transferred to the ranks of the National Police. after, of course, being purged of all inoperatives.
As to the Navy, place them under the Ministry of Finance in a role similar to that of the US Coast Guard with authorityto board and inspect all vessels within the Territorial Waters of the DR. I/m sure the US sould be glad to relinqqish a few of its retired Corvettes on a Lend/Lease basis for that purpose and provide the proper training for crews to man them.
In addition, a large part of the Army couold be assigned, as it is now, as a permanent Borderpatrol to mitigate, in part, the illegal immigration emiting from Haiti and Cuba.
Those members presently assigned as "Special Forces" would remain as the only Army Unit and be used as "rapid response teams" to any effort at invasion, which is highly improbable to begin with.
The system urgently needs to be reduced and streamlined to meet today's ambiguous threats, if any.
Texas Bill
As to the Navy, place them under the Ministry of Finance in a role similar to that of the US Coast Guard with authorityto board and inspect all vessels within the Territorial Waters of the DR. I/m sure the US sould be glad to relinqqish a few of its retired Corvettes on a Lend/Lease basis for that purpose and provide the proper training for crews to man them.
In addition, a large part of the Army couold be assigned, as it is now, as a permanent Borderpatrol to mitigate, in part, the illegal immigration emiting from Haiti and Cuba.
Those members presently assigned as "Special Forces" would remain as the only Army Unit and be used as "rapid response teams" to any effort at invasion, which is highly improbable to begin with.
The system urgently needs to be reduced and streamlined to meet today's ambiguous threats, if any.
Texas Bill
As usual, Texas Bill has his grip on things....
Mirador, you are so right. And add weight to the argument the a DR Army is unnecessary..
I like the idea of a Coast Guard and the Border Patrol is supposed to be coming on line soon...
We'll see where this goes..
HB?
Mirador, you are so right. And add weight to the argument the a DR Army is unnecessary..
I like the idea of a Coast Guard and the Border Patrol is supposed to be coming on line soon...
We'll see where this goes..
HB
?I'm more in agreement with Texas Bill.
I think the DR should maintain a small regular army, a highly trained special forces that could be used in emergencies. Also maintaining an artillery battery(what little of it is left) and and tank unit(well, what few tanks the DR has left). Basically, returning the Dominican Army to what it was in 1930 when Trujillo took over. (Perhaps 2-3000 soldiers)
The idea of the converting a large number of remaining soldiers into a heavily armed military police units(with the remaining armored cars) sounds good. Like Spain's Civil Guard(or italy's Cabineri). Or returning to what Trujillo had, a Gaurdia. What has been going on the last few days, with joint military/police patrols is what the DR had during the Era of Trujillo. And it was extremely effective at maintaining order. The Guardia would still be nominally part of the army and could be mobilized as part of an expanded DR armed forces in times of emergency.
The navy has been so greatly reduced, I doubt it even needs to bother with the name change to Coast Guard. I don't think the DR has much of a Navy left.
I would maintain a scaled back airforce( what's left of it.) I would return it to what it was before 1948, a few hundred pilots and air crew members.
I think the DR should maintain a small regular army, a highly trained special forces that could be used in emergencies. Also maintaining an artillery battery(what little of it is left) and and tank unit(well, what few tanks the DR has left). Basically, returning the Dominican Army to what it was in 1930 when Trujillo took over. (Perhaps 2-3000 soldiers)
The idea of the converting a large number of remaining soldiers into a heavily armed military police units(with the remaining armored cars) sounds good. Like Spain's Civil Guard(or italy's Cabineri). Or returning to what Trujillo had, a Gaurdia. What has been going on the last few days, with joint military/police patrols is what the DR had during the Era of Trujillo. And it was extremely effective at maintaining order. The Guardia would still be nominally part of the army and could be mobilized as part of an expanded DR armed forces in times of emergency.
The navy has been so greatly reduced, I doubt it even needs to bother with the name change to Coast Guard. I don't think the DR has much of a Navy left.
I would maintain a scaled back airforce( what's left of it.) I would return it to what it was before 1948, a few hundred pilots and air crew members.
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joel pacheco said:
Joel, Trujillo did not create the Guardia. The Guardia was created by President Ram?n Arturo ?Mon? C?ceres G?zman, by gathering and organizing the rural constables into one unit, which he called La Guardia Republicana, but was known popularly as "La Guardia de Mon". President Mon C?ceres was assassinated in 1911. It was the political instalibility following his death that created the conditions seized by the United States for its intervention of 1916-22. The rest is history ;-)
The Guardia
Mirador, that is interesting.
I have been reading refernces to the Guardia in history books, but I could never find out much about its creation, organization and arms.
Does anyone have any photos of the Guardia in uniform? Not just in the Era of Trujillo, but at any time in it's history? I am interested in any more information I can gain on this topic.
I don't want to see the DRs army completely eliminated. I'm don't see any real threats to the DR right now, but this is a Latin American nation with 8 million citizens. You never know. Perhaps internal strife, civil war.
Aristide was toppled by a few hundred rebel fighters. He had no army to call up to defend the Republic. His lightly armed police force(on paper 5000, in reality, perhaps only 2000) crumbled in the face of the paramilitary groups like the infamous, machine-gun toting, machete welding, "Cannibal Army".
If Haiti had even maintained just the original "Civil Guard" army ( A large regiment with a few tanks and armored cars), the government would not have been toppled. I'm not interested in discussing the merits(or lack of merits) of President Aristide's government, the point is that sometimes there are threats that require more than a just a SWAT team to deal with.
Mirador, that is interesting.
I have been reading refernces to the Guardia in history books, but I could never find out much about its creation, organization and arms.
Does anyone have any photos of the Guardia in uniform? Not just in the Era of Trujillo, but at any time in it's history? I am interested in any more information I can gain on this topic.
I don't want to see the DRs army completely eliminated. I'm don't see any real threats to the DR right now, but this is a Latin American nation with 8 million citizens. You never know. Perhaps internal strife, civil war.
Aristide was toppled by a few hundred rebel fighters. He had no army to call up to defend the Republic. His lightly armed police force(on paper 5000, in reality, perhaps only 2000) crumbled in the face of the paramilitary groups like the infamous, machine-gun toting, machete welding, "Cannibal Army".
If Haiti had even maintained just the original "Civil Guard" army ( A large regiment with a few tanks and armored cars), the government would not have been toppled. I'm not interested in discussing the merits(or lack of merits) of President Aristide's government, the point is that sometimes there are threats that require more than a just a SWAT team to deal with.
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On the one hand, I'll agree with Joel; but, on the other hand I still see no imperitive for a large standing Army and maintain that a well trained, mobile force, equipped with sufficient weaponry can deal effectively, at least temporarily, with any invading force that could be launched against the DR.
As to the use of such a force within the borders (?), well, if equipped properly, it could deal with almost any insurrectionist force that could be fielded. Provisionial plans for force augmentation would be necessary in the event of a major invasion. Such a Reserve force being available from the ranks of the National Police, Border Patrol, Coast Guard and/or Provincial Militia (civilians trained as an emergency force only).
Other than these Units, I see no need for a Standing Armed Force such as is in place at this time. The existing force is much too large for a country the size and population of the DR; moreover, its mandate is very non-specific and top heavy with non-operatives whose sole existence is based on fallacious reasoning. In the US Military, we called them "Empire builders". The force that needs to be expanded is the Air Arm, which needs both transportation types for facillitating the movement of troops and equipment plus re-supply of expendables to the combat salient, additionally they need fireships for both tactical support and interdiction.
Other than those items mentioned, the Armed Forces here is not used to its fullest abilities and should be reduced in both size and mission.
That said, I'll retire to my "pie in the sky" dreamworld as to what the DR needs.
Texas Bill
As to the use of such a force within the borders (?), well, if equipped properly, it could deal with almost any insurrectionist force that could be fielded. Provisionial plans for force augmentation would be necessary in the event of a major invasion. Such a Reserve force being available from the ranks of the National Police, Border Patrol, Coast Guard and/or Provincial Militia (civilians trained as an emergency force only).
Other than these Units, I see no need for a Standing Armed Force such as is in place at this time. The existing force is much too large for a country the size and population of the DR; moreover, its mandate is very non-specific and top heavy with non-operatives whose sole existence is based on fallacious reasoning. In the US Military, we called them "Empire builders". The force that needs to be expanded is the Air Arm, which needs both transportation types for facillitating the movement of troops and equipment plus re-supply of expendables to the combat salient, additionally they need fireships for both tactical support and interdiction.
Other than those items mentioned, the Armed Forces here is not used to its fullest abilities and should be reduced in both size and mission.
That said, I'll retire to my "pie in the sky" dreamworld as to what the DR needs.
Texas Bill
I will go even further. I believe that the military IS the problem. The existence of the military is what is holding back the DR from developing a political consciousness based on democratic values, civil responsibility, and respect for civil rights. While there is a parallel authority structure represented by the military, based on military rank, and which trumps civilian authority in every turn, there is no chance for the population to learn, much less exercise, true democratic political values, creating and consolidating sound democratic institutions. If we want democracy, the military has to go.
Right on Billy! BTW, I believe Costa Rica didn't "disband the military" like they got credit for it, but folded it into a uniformed national police force unlike anything they had before.
Other than that, the DR military seems to primarily exist to give remnants of Trujillo elitists' descendents something to do. And they usually find something to do, and it's not always beneficial to the society at large...
Other than that, the DR military seems to primarily exist to give remnants of Trujillo elitists' descendents something to do. And they usually find something to do, and it's not always beneficial to the society at large...
Here in the DR congress authorizes a combined military force of 44,000 active duty personnel. Actual active duty strength is approximately 32,000. A big problem is that approximately 50% of those are used for non-military activities such as security providers for government-owned non-military facilities, highway toll stations, prisons, forestry work, state enterprises, and private businesses.
The mission of the DR military is to defend the nation and protect the territorial integrity of the country. The army, larger than the other services combined with approximately 20,000 active duty personnel, consists of six infantry brigades, a combat support brigade, and a combat service support brigade. The air force operates two main bases, one in the southern region near Santo Domingo and one in the northern region near Puerto Plata. The navy operates two major naval bases, one in Santo Domingo and one in Las Calderas on the southwestern coast, and maintains 12 operational vessels.
The armed forces have organized a Specialized Airport Security Corps (CESA) and a Specialized Port Security Corps (CESEP) to meet international security needs in these areas. Additionally, the armed forces provide 75% of personnel to the National Investigations Directorate (DNI) and the Counter-Drug Directorate (DNCD).
In the Caribbean, only Cuba has a larger military force.
The Dominican National Police force has in the neighborhood of 33,000 agents. About sixty-three percent of the force serve in areas outside traditional police functions, similar to their military counterparts.
As noted from the figures above the DR could maintain their military mission with 50% of the men presently maintained as 50% presently don’t function as military. With a 16,000 member military we are talking about 5 brigades of 3,200 men in each brigade. Each brigade is made up of 4 battalions and each battalion is made up of 4 companies. Each company is made up of 4 platoons that are made up of 4 squads. A brigade is commanded by a general which would require 5. A battalion is commanded by a colonel or major which would require 20. A company is commanded by a major or captain which would require 80. On the non-commissioned officer side of the house you would need 5 Command Sergeant Majors, 20 Sergeant Majors, 80 First Sergeants, 1,280 Sergeants First Class for the Platoons and 1,280 Sergeants for the squads with the other 13,230 lower enlisted. If you cut the military pay in half you are talking a lot of money. If you have only the essential officers needed you are talking about saving a lot of money. If you have only the essential non-commissioned officers needed then more saved money.
Rick
The mission of the DR military is to defend the nation and protect the territorial integrity of the country. The army, larger than the other services combined with approximately 20,000 active duty personnel, consists of six infantry brigades, a combat support brigade, and a combat service support brigade. The air force operates two main bases, one in the southern region near Santo Domingo and one in the northern region near Puerto Plata. The navy operates two major naval bases, one in Santo Domingo and one in Las Calderas on the southwestern coast, and maintains 12 operational vessels.
The armed forces have organized a Specialized Airport Security Corps (CESA) and a Specialized Port Security Corps (CESEP) to meet international security needs in these areas. Additionally, the armed forces provide 75% of personnel to the National Investigations Directorate (DNI) and the Counter-Drug Directorate (DNCD).
In the Caribbean, only Cuba has a larger military force.
The Dominican National Police force has in the neighborhood of 33,000 agents. About sixty-three percent of the force serve in areas outside traditional police functions, similar to their military counterparts.
As noted from the figures above the DR could maintain their military mission with 50% of the men presently maintained as 50% presently don’t function as military. With a 16,000 member military we are talking about 5 brigades of 3,200 men in each brigade. Each brigade is made up of 4 battalions and each battalion is made up of 4 companies. Each company is made up of 4 platoons that are made up of 4 squads. A brigade is commanded by a general which would require 5. A battalion is commanded by a colonel or major which would require 20. A company is commanded by a major or captain which would require 80. On the non-commissioned officer side of the house you would need 5 Command Sergeant Majors, 20 Sergeant Majors, 80 First Sergeants, 1,280 Sergeants First Class for the Platoons and 1,280 Sergeants for the squads with the other 13,230 lower enlisted. If you cut the military pay in half you are talking a lot of money. If you have only the essential officers needed you are talking about saving a lot of money. If you have only the essential non-commissioned officers needed then more saved money.
Rick
Rick Snyder said:
This is the first Organizational breakdown I nave seen published about the Defense Forces of the DR. It is very enlightening and should be studied by all who are truly concerned with that element of the Government while keeping in mind that a country's Military Forces and Capabilities have the traditional role of being the Enforcement Arm of that Country's Diplomacy and Foreign Policy. This role is sometimes used to bolster National Emergency efforts of giving aid and comfort to the population.
Additional analysis concerning the distribution of Air and Sea Forces reveals a complete strategic and tactical indefensibility of the major threat corridor in the Northwestern salient. That threat being the larger military force of Cuba.
Haiti is discounted as a threat agent by reason of not being capable of fielding a truly ground, sea or air threat.
In any event the Northwest area is "wide open" and lightly patrolled by a skeleton force. A fast moving mobile infantry force could establish a sizable beachhead in a matter of hours after landing or crossing the border should they ingress through Haiti. An engineering battalion with appropriate bridging equipment could easily facillitate the latter action.
However the recent reports of an incursion, in force and in place, in the Coastal area between Manzanillo and Monticristi would seem to further highlight this "Achilles Heel" in the defensive deployment of DR Forces. Organic intelligence either being deficient or complascent could lead to a "sticky situation" in that area. Why the local Commander hasn't addressed the problem is unknown. It is possible he considers this incursion to be a civil matter and not within his mandate to investigate.
Additionally, i believe the Army to be maade up of forces primarily operating in a garrisoned situation with a decided deficency in field operations . obviously, the Headquarters doesn't see a need for "war gameing" operations, thus further nulifying the effectiveness of Units.
Texas Bill
I just jumped into this thread as something to do on a quite Saturday afternoon with no intent to go very deep into the subject.
A new member with no posts, possible sock puppet, sent me a PM and as that person failed to sign said letter I will share it with the board as they have something to say about the DR military. I will not reveal their board name as it was a PM. Why they decided to send said message to me is unknown;
"DR Military
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And the said fact is, the entire DR Military/Police command would be overrun in days by any indsustrialzed countries single division of mechanized Infantry
They are not a true armed forces, not even a Republican Guard. they are merely untrained boys with assault rifles, backed by a few unreliable pieces of armor, transport planes, VIP helos and over the hill Generals and "Coronels" unfit to be called a "Garret trooper"
They do have a SPECFOR command, not sure of the size that could likley repel attack and hold the Presedential Palace or react to an infiltration from Haiti, for how long who knows"
That is the message in its entirety.
Comments?
Rick
Edited for grammar
A new member with no posts, possible sock puppet, sent me a PM and as that person failed to sign said letter I will share it with the board as they have something to say about the DR military. I will not reveal their board name as it was a PM. Why they decided to send said message to me is unknown;
"DR Military
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
And the said fact is, the entire DR Military/Police command would be overrun in days by any indsustrialzed countries single division of mechanized Infantry
They are not a true armed forces, not even a Republican Guard. they are merely untrained boys with assault rifles, backed by a few unreliable pieces of armor, transport planes, VIP helos and over the hill Generals and "Coronels" unfit to be called a "Garret trooper"
They do have a SPECFOR command, not sure of the size that could likley repel attack and hold the Presedential Palace or react to an infiltration from Haiti, for how long who knows"
That is the message in its entirety.
Comments?
Rick
Edited for grammar