More than one tourist or expat, after witnessing last night?s heavy-handed display of police and armed military personnel, improvised roadblocks, arbitrary business closings, indiscriminate frisking of patrons and pedestrians, must be wondering if there is something more going on than just a new government crime-fighting campaign. In only three to four months crime has increased tenfold, something unexplainable in terms of the typically recognized causes of crime. This is suspicious indeed. Considering that certain current high government officials have stated publicly that police personnel has been involved in most of the recent crime cases, and considering that the new crime-fighting measures do not address the issues of corruption and crime within the police force and government as a whole, it is evident that the current administration is unable or unwilling to effectively address the increasing crime problem. Also, considering that the current political system has failed to address the social issues that lead to crime, is unwilling to fight government corruption, confront the economic privileges afforded to the traditional elite, it is not too farfetched to suggest the possibility that the current administration has succumbed to dark forces from the past, and is leading the country down the slippery slope of dictatorship.
- Thread starter Mirador
- Start date
Is the DR on the slippery slope toward dictatorship?
Heil....
Many (mainly old) people talk good about Trujillo.
Candelier is popular.
So the potential is there.
m'frog
Mirador said:
Many (mainly old) people talk good about Trujillo.
Candelier is popular.
So the potential is there.
m'frog
Mirador,
No. This will all die down soon enough when the government sees that it is paralyzing its own economy and that the police/military/DNCD/Government are still corrupt.
Just another show from another ineffective administration. Any optimism I ever had for the DR has died over the past year or so. We will see no major progress in our lifetimes...savor the small victories.
Scandall
No. This will all die down soon enough when the government sees that it is paralyzing its own economy and that the police/military/DNCD/Government are still corrupt.
Just another show from another ineffective administration. Any optimism I ever had for the DR has died over the past year or so. We will see no major progress in our lifetimes...savor the small victories.
Scandall
No, no dictatorship in the horizon, Just another show of force that'll die down almost immediately but it will show off how effective the police is in fighting crime. It will demonstrate how indispensable, vital, & important the national police is in protecting and securing our citizen's rights.
So what if 50% of our police force commit crimes or are "on the take"? At least we protect you from common thieves. Oh wait, we are also common thieves.
But we protect you from thugs and homicidal maniacs. Oh wait, that's us too.
But we protect you from trumped-up criminal accusations. Oh wait, that's what we do best.
Fight crime? What a joke! The national police is a phucking oxymoron!
So what if 50% of our police force commit crimes or are "on the take"? At least we protect you from common thieves. Oh wait, we are also common thieves.
But we protect you from thugs and homicidal maniacs. Oh wait, that's us too.
But we protect you from trumped-up criminal accusations. Oh wait, that's what we do best.
Fight crime? What a joke! The national police is a phucking oxymoron!
The DR has a very poor distribution of wealth. This is why I laugh when people say that the economy is doing so well. Well for who?
People get tired of being poor, and as the poor in society have all kinds of problems with lack of education and family disfunction, they will invariably turn to crime.
When the biggest criminals are in the government, military and the police you will get problems that even a swashbuckling president with a anti-crime agenda can't fix.
I've always said it-the DR has to come to grips with its world-wide reputation for harboring and nurturing cocaine kingpins and do something about THAT before they can get the average low-life tigere off the streets.
People get tired of being poor, and as the poor in society have all kinds of problems with lack of education and family disfunction, they will invariably turn to crime.
When the biggest criminals are in the government, military and the police you will get problems that even a swashbuckling president with a anti-crime agenda can't fix.
I've always said it-the DR has to come to grips with its world-wide reputation for harboring and nurturing cocaine kingpins and do something about THAT before they can get the average low-life tigere off the streets.
Scandall said:
...and not in the lifetimes of our children, our grandchildren or our great grandchildren. Why?, because of the traitors, traitors like the Congressmen who were bribed and voted for the artificial "novomundo" island project last night.
I don't know if a show of force is a bad thing. The government can't allow the delinquents to dominate the country with fear, so with respect to the Dominican citizenry, they should expect police protection and criminals to be thrown in jail.
However, therein lies the problem. Since the Dominican penal code was revised, word has spread among the criminals that if you get arrested from stealing, robbing, or dealing drugs, that you'll be back out on the street in a matter of hours or just a few days. What kind of deterrent to crime is that?
The steady escalation in crime has been a result of criminals discovering that they'll be promptly released from jail.
It was probably men with good intentions that revised the Penal Code, but the road to good intentions often leads to h*ll. The Penal Code puts an overwhelming burden on the Prosecutors's now to where it makes it nearly impossible to get a conviction. The result is very few convictions for significant crimes.
As bad as it sounds, I would say that the criminals have a good thing in the D.R. under the present justice system.
The Fernandez administration needs to rein in the prosecutors, listen to their frustrations, and re-write the criminal proceeding laws to actually keep people in jail for their offenses.
However, therein lies the problem. Since the Dominican penal code was revised, word has spread among the criminals that if you get arrested from stealing, robbing, or dealing drugs, that you'll be back out on the street in a matter of hours or just a few days. What kind of deterrent to crime is that?
The steady escalation in crime has been a result of criminals discovering that they'll be promptly released from jail.
It was probably men with good intentions that revised the Penal Code, but the road to good intentions often leads to h*ll. The Penal Code puts an overwhelming burden on the Prosecutors's now to where it makes it nearly impossible to get a conviction. The result is very few convictions for significant crimes.
As bad as it sounds, I would say that the criminals have a good thing in the D.R. under the present justice system.
The Fernandez administration needs to rein in the prosecutors, listen to their frustrations, and re-write the criminal proceeding laws to actually keep people in jail for their offenses.
kingofdice said:
Shows you know little about the justice system including the penal code in the DR. With the old code, anybody, including yourself, could be arrested without any burden of proof, even based on the whim of the police, or an arbitrary unfounded accusation. No society that calls itself half civilized can let the burden of proof rest solely on the police, much less a corrupt police, thence, the prosecutor and a civil code of justice.
Do you know that during the short stint of General Mn' de Jesus Candelier, as Chief of Police, human rights organizations recorded 2.000 (two thousand) "extra-judicial executions" carried out by the police? Would you let our current police determine your own right to live or die, anybody's right to live or die?
By the say, what rank in the DR police force do you hold?
Oh Mirador, leave my boy kingofdice alone....he don't know much but he does have a good head!!
'The point behind your post, to my mind, was the fact that Ml de Jesús went and registered his political party. And you know, if he works it right, he might make a dent in the traditional parties' hold on things. For years there was a "sort of joke": CANDELIER PARA PRESIDENTE; MACORÍS VICE!!!, which reflected popular resentment at government abuses as well as what was perceived to be, at that time, a rising incidence of criminal activities. when this chant started, drugs were not much in the popular eye. this was before Quirino and some of the huge drug busts. Drugs were considered to be a "problem of the US, not the DR>"
Now, to my way of thinking, it seems that if the Police Chief can tell us that there are 22,000 drug sales points around the DR, he should also be able to literally put his finger on them and squash them! BUT, when his agents report that at "such and such corner there is a drug spot" it is almost the same as saying , "That is where I get the money to feed my family!" However, the promiscuous behavior of so many members of the police also puts pressure on their miserable salaries, salaries that many honest people eke out a living on by the way.... So where do you start pruning?
Paredón! Don't know whether the nation could stand for it....
oh yes, i don't think too many people cried about all of those 2000 eliminated by Candelier's police force...but you are right, it would not be good to have them be judge jury and executioners
HB rambling today..........
'The point behind your post, to my mind, was the fact that Ml de Jesús went and registered his political party. And you know, if he works it right, he might make a dent in the traditional parties' hold on things. For years there was a "sort of joke": CANDELIER PARA PRESIDENTE; MACORÍS VICE!!!, which reflected popular resentment at government abuses as well as what was perceived to be, at that time, a rising incidence of criminal activities. when this chant started, drugs were not much in the popular eye. this was before Quirino and some of the huge drug busts. Drugs were considered to be a "problem of the US, not the DR>"
Now, to my way of thinking, it seems that if the Police Chief can tell us that there are 22,000 drug sales points around the DR, he should also be able to literally put his finger on them and squash them! BUT, when his agents report that at "such and such corner there is a drug spot" it is almost the same as saying , "That is where I get the money to feed my family!" However, the promiscuous behavior of so many members of the police also puts pressure on their miserable salaries, salaries that many honest people eke out a living on by the way.... So where do you start pruning?
Paredón! Don't know whether the nation could stand for it....
oh yes, i don't think too many people cried about all of those 2000 eliminated by Candelier's police force...but you are right, it would not be good to have them be judge jury and executioners
HB rambling today..........
Thank you kind sir, HB for your shield. Mirador reads alot into nothing, giving me the distinct impression that he just wants start a fight with someone. Guess he doesn't know West Virginians, not a good thing for him.
The state of previous D.R. national police force and the past penal code has no bearing that the Dominican citizenry should still expect protection from delinquents committing crimes. Inasmuch that the current penal code apparently favors the criminal, it needs reworked and I am confident that Leonel Fernandez will provide that leadership.
I do not believe in police brutality, nor dictatorships. That being said, I wonder how much out-of-control crime existed under Balaquer or Trujillo. C'mon Mirador take a swing at me. Haha.
To refocus the question: Is the DR on a slope toward dictatorship? No.
Does something need to be done about rampant crime? Yes.
Is it wrong to check on people who are standing on the street corner at midnight? I think not. What are they doing there anyway?
If you haven't got grenade, knife or gun on you, you shouldn't have much to worry about.
Hey, don't you take a swing at me, HB. Hee hee.
The state of previous D.R. national police force and the past penal code has no bearing that the Dominican citizenry should still expect protection from delinquents committing crimes. Inasmuch that the current penal code apparently favors the criminal, it needs reworked and I am confident that Leonel Fernandez will provide that leadership.
I do not believe in police brutality, nor dictatorships. That being said, I wonder how much out-of-control crime existed under Balaquer or Trujillo. C'mon Mirador take a swing at me. Haha.
To refocus the question: Is the DR on a slope toward dictatorship? No.
Does something need to be done about rampant crime? Yes.
Is it wrong to check on people who are standing on the street corner at midnight? I think not. What are they doing there anyway?
If you haven't got grenade, knife or gun on you, you shouldn't have much to worry about.
Hey, don't you take a swing at me, HB. Hee hee.
I agree in checking on people. I have no problem with a police presence. But closing down establishments where law abiding citizens work and your major source of income in generated (tourism) is a stupid idea. You chase the people away the people who bring in the biggest source of income you have. The police should be chasing criminals. They should be asking questions if people are on the streets late at night. They SHOULD NOT be hassling law abiding citizens and tourists from having a good time , NOT BREAKING LAWS, and SPENDING MONEY!
The saddest part of all this is if they wait too long to fix this once the world media outlets start saying stay away from the DR or the military and police will point guns at you or detain and arrest you after midnight on weekdays it will be too late.
The saddest part of all this is if they wait too long to fix this once the world media outlets start saying stay away from the DR or the military and police will point guns at you or detain and arrest you after midnight on weekdays it will be too late.
Beads, I agree that shutting down reputable businesses at midnight, might be a bit much, particularly with a casino or sports bar where west coast games might easily go past midnight. I think serving of alcohol into late hrs. should be regulated, though.
Yes, the D.R. does not want to get the same bad press as St. Marteen that the island has been taken over my criminals. But St. Marteen's problem is one of very little police presence.
I think that the Fernandez government will make adjustments very quickly.
Yes, the D.R. does not want to get the same bad press as St. Marteen that the island has been taken over my criminals. But St. Marteen's problem is one of very little police presence.
I think that the Fernandez government will make adjustments very quickly.
M'Frog - yes, the St. Maarten Dutch side is mired in constant crime in which crimincals fear little reprisal. The French side Gendarme is a little better at policing on their side of the island.
The D.R. has more manpower and resources, but if the present "pro-criminal" penal code should remain unchanged and criminals continue to sense that they can deal drugs, rob businesses, kill people on the street and be back out on the street in a few days - then they will continue their life of crime.
For the tourist, the D.R. could end up like Jamaica, where tourists become confined to their resort compounds with guards who patrol the premises with machine guns, to protect from criminals. The D.R. is not at that stage, but crime cannot allow to go unabated.
Washington, D.C. is presently under a crime wave emergency. The National Park Police, the Capitol Police, the Secret Service, and FBI are now assisting the D.C. Metropolitan police to pursue crimincals on foot patrols. This assistance started in the last week, because robberies of tourists in broad daylight while standing in line to museums on the mall, had escalated to a huge public outcry.
The heavy display of police around the reflecting pool, Lincoln memorial, Washington Monument and other sites is very noticeable at all hours of the day and night. Also, a 10 p.m. curfew has been instituted if you are 16 or under.
So, when public outcry demands government action in the D.R. as in Washington, DC, the government must oblige by showing a display of force.
I'm not saying they have to shake down a 75 yr. old grandmother, but criminals need to know that if they are congregating, loitering, and boozing it up on street corners, that someone is going to keep them in check. It doesn't mean that representation has to be a police officer walking over to crack someone with a baton, but it doesn't hurt to ask the delinquents why they are congregated or loitering at times when they should not be.
I'm in agreement with Scandall that the Dominican government will not acquiesce into a dictatorship. That is very unlikely.
The D.R. has more manpower and resources, but if the present "pro-criminal" penal code should remain unchanged and criminals continue to sense that they can deal drugs, rob businesses, kill people on the street and be back out on the street in a few days - then they will continue their life of crime.
For the tourist, the D.R. could end up like Jamaica, where tourists become confined to their resort compounds with guards who patrol the premises with machine guns, to protect from criminals. The D.R. is not at that stage, but crime cannot allow to go unabated.
Washington, D.C. is presently under a crime wave emergency. The National Park Police, the Capitol Police, the Secret Service, and FBI are now assisting the D.C. Metropolitan police to pursue crimincals on foot patrols. This assistance started in the last week, because robberies of tourists in broad daylight while standing in line to museums on the mall, had escalated to a huge public outcry.
The heavy display of police around the reflecting pool, Lincoln memorial, Washington Monument and other sites is very noticeable at all hours of the day and night. Also, a 10 p.m. curfew has been instituted if you are 16 or under.
So, when public outcry demands government action in the D.R. as in Washington, DC, the government must oblige by showing a display of force.
I'm not saying they have to shake down a 75 yr. old grandmother, but criminals need to know that if they are congregating, loitering, and boozing it up on street corners, that someone is going to keep them in check. It doesn't mean that representation has to be a police officer walking over to crack someone with a baton, but it doesn't hurt to ask the delinquents why they are congregated or loitering at times when they should not be.
I'm in agreement with Scandall that the Dominican government will not acquiesce into a dictatorship. That is very unlikely.
kingofdice, your bigoted slip is showing. Why don't you go back to your West Virigina and lobby for the Napoleonic code of justice. Are you suggesting that Dominican citizens are too primitive or backwards to enjoy due process like in the US? The recently introduced new penal code represents a great leap forward in guaranteeing basic human rights in the DR. Now the police has to get their facts and evidence together befor locking someone up. The new code does away with police arbitrariness. If you are noticing more criminals being set free, it is not because of the penal code, it is because most crime is commited by the police, or in cahoots with the police. The problems IS the police.
Now, Mr. West Virigina, go get your sidekick Hillbilly, it won't help. I'll meet you outside of town, at sundown. I can outdraw and outshoot you anytime. gidiap, gidiap, gidiap, whoa!
Now, Mr. West Virigina, go get your sidekick Hillbilly, it won't help. I'll meet you outside of town, at sundown. I can outdraw and outshoot you anytime. gidiap, gidiap, gidiap, whoa!
/////whoa there, Mirador.
King of dice makes a good point and I agree that under circumstances, other than what they are in DR , it might just work for the better.
Unfortunately what works in Washington, DC. (and I live just outside of it), does not and will never work in DR.
Crime is rampant is DC but the police here are not the criminals. In DR, the police IS the problem.
The DR police can come up with all kings of gimmicks to "fight crime", but unless and until they themselves are prosecuted, this whole bogus show of force will continue to be just that.
The one thing I'm glad of is that now (correct me if I'm wrong), the thugs (police) will have a harder time trying to put you away with trumped-up charges that beforehand, was a good money maker... They would pick you up and take you to the cuartel (police station) then demand $$$ from relatives to let you go free..... If this is not kidnapping and extortion, I don't know what is. What proof do I have? It happened to me once.
There are two ways to protect yourself from "justice" in DR, one is to have a connection with the military, the other is to insulate yourself with money! and sometimes the two go hand in hand. What, you have neither? You're $hit out of luck! How sad is that?
King of dice makes a good point and I agree that under circumstances, other than what they are in DR , it might just work for the better.
Unfortunately what works in Washington, DC. (and I live just outside of it), does not and will never work in DR.
Crime is rampant is DC but the police here are not the criminals. In DR, the police IS the problem.
The DR police can come up with all kings of gimmicks to "fight crime", but unless and until they themselves are prosecuted, this whole bogus show of force will continue to be just that.
The one thing I'm glad of is that now (correct me if I'm wrong), the thugs (police) will have a harder time trying to put you away with trumped-up charges that beforehand, was a good money maker... They would pick you up and take you to the cuartel (police station) then demand $$$ from relatives to let you go free..... If this is not kidnapping and extortion, I don't know what is. What proof do I have? It happened to me once.
There are two ways to protect yourself from "justice" in DR, one is to have a connection with the military, the other is to insulate yourself with money! and sometimes the two go hand in hand. What, you have neither? You're $hit out of luck! How sad is that?
What the current system of questioning persons, doing nothing but standing around, amounts to could be easily classified as "police harassment", but, on the other hand, if these people are "standing around" night after night in a known "crime intensive area" then the police are correct in assuming, or giving consideration to, the probability that those persons are up to no good and are searched for possible weapons or contraband (reaad unauthorized materials) and possible have the intention of using those weapons or marketing the contraband.
A great deal depends on just how one views police tactics used in mitigating crime.
People who "hang out" at specific places, day after day and night after night, and who have no visible means of support are almost always viewed by the police with qualified suspicion and justifiably so.
I leave it to each of you to judge for yourself whether these actions are "human rights" violations or merely the police performing their mandate of "Protect and Enforce".
Just remenber, you as an outsider, are not always privy to the same information/observations the police have at their fingertips.
"Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see".
Texas Bill
A great deal depends on just how one views police tactics used in mitigating crime.
People who "hang out" at specific places, day after day and night after night, and who have no visible means of support are almost always viewed by the police with qualified suspicion and justifiably so.
I leave it to each of you to judge for yourself whether these actions are "human rights" violations or merely the police performing their mandate of "Protect and Enforce".
Just remenber, you as an outsider, are not always privy to the same information/observations the police have at their fingertips.
"Believe none of what you hear and only half of what you see".
Texas Bill
Texas Bill said:
Texas Bill, a true civil society does not leave up to each individual policeman the decision of whether certain behavior should be considered or not criminal. The job of the police is to enforce the law, and it is the responsibility of society, through legislation and ordinances, to determine explicitely what constitute illegal behavior. In your example, there should be specific loitering ordinances created for these situations. To leave it to the whim of a probably corrupt cop to determine arbitrarily who to arrest or not because of "loitering" represents a most primitive way of administer justice.
It has become apparent to me over the years that the DR does in fact have almost all the necessary ordinances on the books. The major problem as I see it is the failure to implement enforcement of said ordinances on a regular basis. If you enforce a law on a continual basis the population soon learns not to commit that infraction which serves the purpose of acquiring trust in the police and allows them the opportunity to focus their attention on other areas of crime while always having an eye open on those laws that the public has learned not to commit.
Another problem is the public’s inability to get easy and quick access to those ordinances that are in fact on the books.
I am almost positive that there are loitering laws on the books just as there are littering laws and a host of others that any normal society has. I think it would be safe to say that the majority of the police have no idea as to what ordinances are on the books and what isn’t. This should be required reading for all police but unfortunately I think the majority can’t read well enough to understand what is in front of them.
I think it should also be mentioned that the working of the police with the military is nothing new as it has been going on for decades in this country and is easily facilitated due to the fact that the same person controls both organizations. Though the patrolling of areas by the two together may be new their relationship in overall mission is not and I fell better in knowing that one is watching the other.
Rick
Edited to clean my links up, sorry.
Another problem is the public’s inability to get easy and quick access to those ordinances that are in fact on the books.
I am almost positive that there are loitering laws on the books just as there are littering laws and a host of others that any normal society has. I think it would be safe to say that the majority of the police have no idea as to what ordinances are on the books and what isn’t. This should be required reading for all police but unfortunately I think the majority can’t read well enough to understand what is in front of them.
I think it should also be mentioned that the working of the police with the military is nothing new as it has been going on for decades in this country and is easily facilitated due to the fact that the same person controls both organizations. Though the patrolling of areas by the two together may be new their relationship in overall mission is not and I fell better in knowing that one is watching the other.
Rick
Edited to clean my links up, sorry.
Last edited:
Mirador said:
Mirador:
I agree with you in your premise.
The point of my statement was that there are times and circumstances that trigger the "investigate this" mode for police officers.
There are times when a seemingly innocent person is, in fact, waiting for an opportunity to act in opposition to laws, ordnances and regulations and is "investigated' by a police officer who finds that the person has criminal intentions of "whatever" magnitude. That person may have narcotics on his person ready to pass on to a "customer"; he may have the intentions of robbing a nearby business or individual and have a firearm. It is these circumstances I am referring to and not an indescriminate harassment by police of an individual. It is the investigation of suspicious circumstances that I referred to, nothing else.
I will grant you that the police in the DR have the reputation of forcing their authority on citizens for no reason. I was a victim of an act like that myself, to the regret of the officer later on. Been there had that done to me.
I think you get the drift of my post, however. And Rick explained it better than I did.
Texas Bill