If you think DR-CAFTA is a bad idea...

Free trade is good.

Free trade is good when it is really free : what we have today is a heavily subsidized US agriculture vs a non-subsidized dominican agriculture. This is not free in my book, this is unfair, this is cheating, or more, I would say, this is a very cynical way to destroy the dominican agriculture.

I am not an expert on Taiwan, so I haven't commented on that free-trade, but I would be interested to learn about the reality of this nation.

I'll be open to Free trade whenever no one is subsidized (or both subsidized at the same level...)

Industrial Leaders Oppose New Agreement

They say that it is too soon for Tiawan with the CAFTA having many unknowns.

Squat said:

I'll be open to Free trade whenever no one is subsidized (or both subsidized at the same level...)

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I concur.

My opinion on a FTA with Taiwan? It is just a door opener to get Taiwanese goods close to the US and easy to import under a set of rules already agreed to.

The FTA milieu is a wonderful playing ground for our current administration. Whatever they agree with the 'evil empire', they simply turn around and offer to someone else like Taiwan. Brilliant strategy! Will it work? Not for the country as a whole, but for themselves, nicely done.

Squat said:

Free trade is good when it is really free : what we have today is a heavily subsidized US agriculture vs a non-subsidized dominican agriculture. This is not free in my book, this is unfair, this is cheating, or more, I would say, this is a very cynical way to destroy the dominican agriculture.

I am not an expert on Taiwan, so I haven't commented on that free-trade, but I would be interested to learn about the reality of this nation.

I'll be open to Free trade whenever no one is subsidized (or both subsidized at the same level...)

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Then let's do away with the Free Trade Zones and see how that affects the Dominican economy.

100% "free trade" anywhere is a pipe dream by your definition. Isn't fuel subsidized by the DR gov't? Then industries that use it aren't "free" either. Maybe the proper terminology is "Duty Free"...

I'm picking nits, but the Big Picture had Free Trade working better for 3rd World countries than the Big Bad US. Remember how accurate Ross Perot's "giant sucking sound". He was right.

Chris said:

I concur.

My opinion on a FTA with Taiwan? It is just a door opener to get Taiwanese goods close to the US and easy to import under a set of rules already agreed to.

The FTA milieu is a wonderful playing ground for our current administration. Whatever they agree with the 'evil empire', they simply turn around and offer to someone else like Taiwan. Brilliant strategy! Will it work? Not for the country as a whole, but for themselves, nicely done.

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Huh?

What on earth are you talking about?

You think it's a giant conspiracy?

Aluminum Foil Deflector Beanie

good for whom?

cobraboy said:

Free trade is good.

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Good FOR WHOM?

There is not such thing in the world that is good FOR EVERYONE

Usually if something is good for the rich and for big corporations it is bad for poor and middle class.

For DR free trade will bring only overdevelopment, deterioration of living standards, environmental pollution, chinese type "sweat shops" and sweet dreams about "good old times". Just ask anybody who ever worked under a chinese manager or owner.

DR is not the first country to be subject to globalization monster. Unfortunatelly the result is always the same and unfortunatelly none of us can do nothing to stop it , or to delay. At least until our death.

It is only my personal HO. From observing other "third world" countries in the similar situation.

Those who have a different opinion please do not be mad at me personally!

Regarding Taiwan and China , the only thing they need uregently - comfortable living space. For their billions population.

Just 100 million chinese moving to this island , and those who support free trade and globalization will say very differently.

batich said:

Usually if something is good for the rich and for big corporations it is bad for poor and middle class.

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You assume economics is a "zero sum" game. The positive economic growth tide raises everybody's boat.

batich said:

For DR free trade will bring only overdevelopment, deterioration of living standards, environmental pollution, chinese type "sweat shops" and sweet dreams about "good old times". Just ask anybody who ever worked under a chinese manager or owner.

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How can development erode living standards? I thought one thing the DR needed was jobs, seeing how much unemployment exists. And aren't there already existing Labor Laws in the DR that would preclude "sweat shops"?

And what does Chinese management have to do with the DR? Isn't that a semi-racist comment?

batich said:

Regarding Taiwan and China , the only thing they need uregently - comfortable living space. For their billions population.

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Taiwan, yes. China, absolutely not.

What China could use is what Taiwan has: a working democracy.

Look how much of the DR is based on cheap Chinese stuff. You don't think it's not "subsidized"?

cobraboy said:

You think it's a giant conspiracy?

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No, but a very clever move.

cobraboy :

I think that small island countries like DR can survive and preserve their identity and environment only keeping their economy closed.

Otherwise,playing economy games with huge superpowers will be disastrous.
_______________________________

Why racist? I respect hard working chinese people. What I said that no dominican ever will be able to work in chinese-owned companies or under a manager who is chinese. Being closely watched all workday. Having 45 minutes lunch break and three four-minute long breaks to go to the bathroom.

For chinese working 365 days a day without single vacation or day-off is normal. But it will be death sentence to a dominican.
Not to mention what will happen to our currently beautiful coastal areas with building hundreds of different factories. And to values of our beautiful Cabarete and Sosua villas and condos.

All over the world residents fight as much as they can against construction of commercial objects close to their houses. They have a very good reason for this fight.

With open economy these companies will be chinese owned and exampted from DR laws. I am sure you know it better than me how "flexible" can be laws in this country. Including labor laws. Including environmental laws.

I`ve seen it alot in Brooklyn and Queens.

Only uninformed idealist can invite this to DR.

You even do not understand what are you preaching for.

But like I said, neither you nor myself can do nothing to change anything. So, I suggest that we keep our interesting discussion civilized and purely theoretical, not personal.
Best of the luck in everything!

batich said:

With open economy these companies will be chinese owned and exampted from DR laws. I am sure you know it better than me how "flexible" can be laws in this country. Including labor laws. Including environmental laws.

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It's Free Trade/No Duty, not open economies. I am not aware of ANY country with an "open economy" where foreigners come in and do as they please.

No one will come in and be exempted from DR business or labor laws.

No offense taken at all.

BTW-My good friend is a production supervisor in a Free Zone company in Santiago. I assure you that Dominicans CAN and DO produce at a high level.

CB

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First and foremost, if you are of those who like concise answers, simply read the final paragraph of this post. If, however, you like detailed answers and/or don't understand the logic behind the final paragraph, then read the preceding paragraphs.

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I support DR-CAFTA and most free trade agreements, thus I also support the agreement with Taiwan and any other country the DR may wish to engage itself with.

However, since the question of the OP was "why the anti-free trade chirade when the U.S. is involved and why nothing of the sort with Taiwan", well I think the following may answer (wholly or in part) such question.

Free Trade as described in purely economic terms is a very real thing, the problem is that it does not exist today. What we do have today is a system of trade that in fact is protected and expanded by the virtue of militarism.

I could go into details about this, but it's getting late.

Thus, engagement in "free trade" with the global super power is a different ordeal than engaging in "free trade" with a militarily weak and unimportant country such as Taiwan, at least compared to the US of A.

Thus, many people (although I'm not of this mindset, but I think I understand their logic) see anything that deals with the US as something that will be inevitably coerced by the military power of the U.S., thus ensuring that the DR would have to keep its promise, even if the deal turns out to be disadventagous in the long run. Globalization (and by default free trade) is expanded and protected via militarism. The notion of the "invinsible hand" equilibrating market exist only in economic theory, but fails to exist in reality due to the political ramifications and priorities using the free market argument to further their agenda, whatever it may be on a global scale.

Taiwan, on the other hand, is neither a superpower nor an economic power in the vicinity of the DR or the Caribbean. Thus, if the DR decides to drop out of any agreement with Taiwan (if it proves to be disadventagious to the DR in the long run), the risk of a reciprocity which could hurt the DR militarily or economically are certain much lower than they are when the deal is with the U.S.

For those of you who like straight forward simple answers: Anti-Americanism and fear of a global hegemon becoming more powerful is the culprit for the double standard between the negative opinion some have towards DR-CAFTA and the "lack of opinion" regarding the agreement with Taiwan.

-NALs

With DRCafta...there would be easier import of products from USA to DR...is that right? My thinking on this is that the current import monopolies are afraid of what this may do to their business. Go into most stores here and what do you see....more of the same. You see third rate products that are sold as first rate. There is nothing better to purchase so you have to purchase what is available. And you purchase it at a first rate price. So someone is making a lot of money. Now open the floodgates to import from the USA. What do we expect will happen? And what about all those reject products that are scooped up and sold here. Someone making a lot of money on that junk. I have been trying to find good bed spreads. I have looked in a lot of stores. It is all the same. It is disgusting junk. I'm down in Santo Domingo today and looking at these bed spreads...and this Dominican couple....obviously educated and with money...they are looking also. This guy tells me the quality is very good. I just looked at him. Of course I knew what the problem was. It was the best he had seen. Still I considered it junk. Anyway, "Follow The Money" on DRCafta. And Nals...lot of truth in your statement. I actually fear this hegemon also. This huge force is changing the world...and that change does lift many out of poverty. But it also brings with it some bad. We were just having this discussion tonight. Here in the DR...everyone talks to everyone. You know all your neighbors. In the USA it is quiet different. Here you feel connected. In the USA you don't feel so connected. Now of course I am speaking in general. Also, the definition for poverty depends on the person. There are many here that you might consider living in poverty. I would not consider them living in poverty. Those that live in the campo who have very basic lives but eat healthy and have large families all around and friends throughout the area. These people are not living in poverty. They have very good lives. I only wish I had the extended families that these people do. They must feel very much a part of something. That force seeks to change this and eventually it will.

Snuffy said:

With DRCafta...there would be easier import of products from USA to DR...is that right? My thinking on this is that the current import monopolies are afraid of what this may do to their business. Go into most stores here and what do you see....more of the same. You see third rate products that are sold as first rate. There is nothing better to purchase so you have to purchase what is available. And you purchase it at a first rate price. So someone is making a lot of money. Now open the floodgates to import from the USA. What do we expect will happen? And what about all those reject products that are scooped up and sold here. Someone making a lot of money on that junk. I have been trying to find good bed spreads. I have looked in a lot of stores. It is all the same. It is disgusting junk. I'm down in Santo Domingo today and looking at these bed spreads...and this Dominican couple....obviously educated and with money...they are looking also. This guy tells me the quality is very good. I just looked at him. Of course I knew what the problem was. It was the best he had seen. Still I considered it junk. Anyway, "Follow The Money" on DRCafta. And Nals...lot of truth in your statement. I actually fear this hegemon also. This huge force is changing the world...and that change does lift many out of poverty. But it also brings with it some bad. We were just having this discussion tonight. Here in the DR...everyone talks to everyone. You know all your neighbors. In the USA it is quiet different. Here you feel connected. In the USA you don't feel so connected. Now of course I am speaking in general. Also, the definition for poverty depends on the person. There are many here that you might consider living in poverty. I would not consider them living in poverty. Those that live in the campo who have very basic lives but eat healthy and have large families all around and friends throughout the area. These people are not living in poverty. They have very good lives. I only wish I had the extended families that these people do. They must feel very much a part of something. That force seeks to change this and eventually it will.

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very much agree.

some force wants them to think and to believe that they are poor.
to manipulate them easier through sophisticated commercial tools.

one is poor not when having little money or being without running hot water

one is poor when having little freedom and living in fear.

I'm biting my tongue here as best I can, but anyone who thinks the CAFTA is self serving to the USA economy has dung for brains!

Like it or not, we all live in a global economy. Hop on board, or remain a third world backwater!!!

CyaBye3015 said:

anyone who thinks the CAFTA is self serving to the USA economy has dung for brains!

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Yeah, and Irak had weapons of mass destruction, and people who thought the Irak war was a bad idea had dung for brains too !!!

-How dare we doubt those honest politicians ???

Squat said:

Yeah, and Irak had weapons of mass destruction, and people who thought the Irak war was a bad idea had dung for brains too !!!

-How dare we doubt those honest politicians ???

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And your point is???

One has nothing to do with the other!

I suspect your simply out to USA bash! Get a life!!!

CyaBye3015 said:

I'm biting my tongue here as best I can, but anyone who thinks the CAFTA is self serving to the USA economy has dung for brains!

Like it or not, we all live in a global economy. Hop on board, or remain a third world backwater!!!

Click to expand...

^^^ A lot of truth there.

China and N. Korea has a method of keeping the poor masses in line: they cut communications with the outside world.

Mutually beneficial and fair cooperation between powerful hungry and greedy predetor-wolf and a helpless defenseless rabbit?

Well, well... Remains to be seen.

Sounds like a centuries old argument between "fathers and sons"

Young optimistic folks-revolutionaries who honestly believe that with radical changes and "development into first world country"they can make the life and world totally different and good.

And old beaten dogs with tons of experience who know that better life already WAS

That the best possible and happieast life is NOW. In this particular moment.

With all its current negatives,defficiencies, black-outs, "playeros" and other flaws.

The best thing possibly to be done - try to preserve without any changes the current life. As long as possible.

In 25 years from now the today`s young optimistic revolutionaries will be saying to their sons - "How happy and how stupid I was then when I could swim in the ocean and pick bananas and coconuts from the tree! I wish I realised it. I wish I could reverse time."

And their sons will hate them -" old retrograds" for these words.

Exactly like young energetic idealistic optimists hate me for these words now.