The Cuban Threat

What do you think the opening of Cuba to Americans would mean to Dominican tourism?

  • Dominican tourism will collapse.

    Votes: 6 6.3%
  • Dominican tourism will go through hard times.

    Votes: 38 40.0%
  • Dominican tourism will not feel much.

    Votes: 31 32.6%
  • It will mean nothing, Dominican tourism will remain strong and well.

    Votes: 20 21.1%

  • Total voters
    95

NALs

Economist by Profession
Jan 20, 2003
13,370
3,150
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What do you think the opening of Cuba to Americans would mean to Dominican tourism?

A) Dominican tourism will collapse.

B) Dominican tourism will be hard hit.

C) Dominican tourism will not feel much.

D) It will mean nothing, Dominican tourism will remain strong.

For more insight into this, please visit the latest thread about this topic. The link is under my own quote from that thread:

Will it hurt the European component of Dominican tourism? No, Cuba is already one of the largest tourist destinations in the Caribbean with around 2 million tourists (almost all Europeans, although many Americans do visit despite the embargo). DR has not started to bleed because of that competition, despite the fact that many of the Spanish owned resorts that exist in the DR also have similar resorts in Cuba as well. Also, Cuba's tourism is on the all-inclusive model just like the DR's.

Will it hurt the American component of Dominican tourism? Don't know by how much, after all, Puerto Rico is an american territory. They can travel there without a passport, without changing currency, if they stick to San Juan's colonial core, Condado, and Isla Verde areas they don't even need to learn a few Spanish words!! Despite that, Dominican tourism has seen an upsurge in visits from Americans, that's taking into the account the necessity of having a passport, exchanging money, having to deal with customer service that is not always able to communicate in anything other than Spanish and/or a very sketchy English, etc. If DR managed to increase its American tourists without throwing Puerto Rico into a tailspin, well then what could be expected once Cuba opens up to the American market?

... competition never hurts. If anything, it makes the products better.

If that is not the case, can someone list just ONE tourist destination on this earth that has been doomed due to increased competition?

And no, tourist destinations that collapsed due to political instability, economic meltdowns, etc does not count.

List just ONE destination that has gone belly up due to competition alone.

Fidel's Demise and What it means to the DR

-NALs
 

dominimom

New member
Dec 3, 2006
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You forgot the HAITI factor

It does not matter how much Dominican will advance in their economy, tourism, etc. I grew up there and even though, now you have the American franchises etc I think the DR it's looking more like Haiti. There are alot of Hatians in the country that are bringing down the standard of living in the DR. Nor Puerto Rico, Cuba, Jamica and any other island in the Caribbean has to carry with such a heavy burden as it is Haiti, the poorest nation in the western hemisphere. That is why, I do not see potential future long term. Things will contibue to improve and at the same time deteriorate. Until it'll catch up. Dominicans are not investing in education and that is a HUGE problem.
 

SantiagoDR

The "REAL" SantiagoDR
Jan 12, 2006
5,808
948
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Hard Choice

It was hard to choose between (A) Dominican tourism will collapse and (B) Dominican tourism will be hard hit.

If things continue like they have been going here, I believe it's going to be very difficult for the DR. I think the Cuban government would be more tourist friendly, such as the control of crime than what currently is the case in the DR.

The DR's main goal seems to be to pay the politicians, their family and friends at all costs. Cuba maybe more positioned to control crime as opposed to the DR. And if the Cuban women are as tourist "friendly" as the Dominican women, people would go to the less crime ridden country. Cuba would become the "In place to go", at least for quite awhile. The thrill of the adventure would lead many there for one thing.

Don - SantiagoDR
 

Berzin

Banned
Nov 17, 2004
5,898
550
113
It does not matter how much Dominican will advance in their economy, tourism, etc. I grew up there and even though, now you have the American franchises etc I think the DR it's looking more like Haiti. There are alot of Hatians in the country that are bringing down the standard of living in the DR. Nor Puerto Rico, Cuba, Jamica and any other island in the Caribbean has to carry with such a heavy burden as it is Haiti, the poorest nation in the western hemisphere. That is why, I do not see potential future long term. Things will contibue to improve and at the same time deteriorate. Until it'll catch up. Dominicans are not investing in education and that is a HUGE problem.

Yeah, right-blame Haiti for what is essentially a dominican problem. They would'nt be there if dominican businessmen were'nt hiring them as cheap labor. Don't blame haitians for wanting to go where the jobs are. And as Haiti is concerned, the DR is not that far behind in terms of poverty. Take away the WU remittances, the drug money and the tourism dollars, and the DR would be just as economically deprived.
 

Musicqueen

Miami Nice!
Jan 31, 2002
2,252
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Gentlemen and ladies: Have any of you been to Cuba? Seen it as it is now???

Let me tell you, I live among Cubans here in Miami...things are not pretty down there...they would have to do a lot of rebuilding and construct new AI's and fix up their beaches and roads before it even starts affecting the DR...

Besides, once they do all that, and people start to actually go on vacation to the island, the sankies will wreck havoc with the ladies...it will be much, much worse than in DR...trust me, the Cubans have the sankie routines down to a tee!!! and can be MUCH slicker than the poor, uneducated Dominicans that now practice that profession...

I know...I live among them here...

MQ
 

suitelady79

New member
Sep 20, 2006
224
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OH YES!! I was just watching a documentary about Cuba last night. I went into the documentary wondering if Cuban people were really all that unhappy or was that something that our government here in the US was just telling us so that we would continue to support the embargo. After watching it, I'm still not sure. Some people seem to be happy with their way of life there and others not so much. But prostitution is definitely a booming business down there just as it is in the DR and anyother poor country. One woman said she often sits in hotel lobbies waiting for tourists to come by. Where ever there is poverty and lack of jobs, there will be prostitution/sankies/sankiettes.

I don't believe the the DR will be hurt much though. Any one that knows and loves the DR before the embargo is lifted will continue to know and love it afterwards. I think the DR will begin to see even more tourism from the US before the travel restriction ends for Americans to go to Cuba. I have begun to see billboards here advertising vacationing in the DR--this will broaden the fan base. Also based on some of the things that I saw in the documentary, I think it will be a while before americans will even feel safe going to Cuba. I think many cubans see americans as prosective terrorists and invaders which dates back to our invasion during the Bay of Pigs (I think thats when we invaded--forgive me if i'm wrong).
 
Last edited:

Chirimoya

Well-known member
Dec 9, 2002
17,850
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Some tourists will prefer Cuba because they will consider it more interesting in terms of culture, history or natural beauty. Others might say the same about the DR. Cost might come into it, so the DR needs to keep on its toes.

The DR has a head start on the luxury sector.

If it's simply down to AI-punters choosing between the two when it comes to sun-sea-sand holidays, the cheaper will win out.

That's why it's so important for the DR tourism sector to diversify.
 

Andy B

Bronze
Jan 1, 2002
774
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www.elmarinique.com
"...think many cubans see americans as prosective terrorists and invaders which dates back to our invasion during the Bay of Pigs (I think thats when we invaded--forgive me if i'm wrong)."

The US DIDN'T invade Cuba at the Bay of Pigs. We just "allowed" it to happen with our support. Actually, it was planned during the Eisenhower administration and then dumped into Kennedy's lap. At the last minute JFK pulled air and sea support for the invasion by Cuban expats and you know the rest. What a fiasco.
 

George Holmes

New member
Nov 15, 2006
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dofieldwork.blogspot.com
As someone who is not American, I have visited Cuba on a work trip - it currently gets around a quarter of the visitors that the DR gets, mainly Canadians and Europeans. It also gets a lot of cultural tourists to see Havana, rather than simply all inclusive types. I am not sure why you think that Cuba will open up to Americans, or that it is not already: I met plenty of Americans there who arrived by going through Canada, Mexico, or even the DR. I know that ol' Fidel is a bit tottery at the moment, but I am not sure that the regime is going to fall soon.
 

suitelady79

New member
Sep 20, 2006
224
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"...think many cubans see americans as prosective terrorists and invaders which dates back to our invasion during the Bay of Pigs (I think thats when we invaded--forgive me if i'm wrong)."

The US DIDN'T invade Cuba at the Bay of Pigs. We just "allowed" it to happen with our support. Actually, it was planned during the Eisenhower administration and then dumped into Kennedy's lap. At the last minute JFK pulled air and sea support for the invasion by Cuban expats and you know the rest. What a fiasco.


Yeah, Fiasco it was! Thanks for the correction!!!
 

cobraboy

Pro-Bono Demolition Hobbyist
Jul 24, 2004
40,964
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Once upon a time, a guy worked for me in Miami who, as a young man, was part of the BoP invasion, got arrested on the beach, served in a Cuban prison, and escaped and ended up in the US again. He belonged to a paramilitary in Miami who trained every weekend in the Everglades to "reinvade" his homeland one day. A pleasant, smart, dedicated guy with a passion in life. A great employee. Last I spoke with him, he got his pilots license, and was actively involved in the "Brothers to the Rescue" group: Brothers to the Rescue (Hermanos al Rescate) .

There were/are a lot of folks like him in Miami. I'll bet musicqueen knows a bunch and can expand on their still-current dedication to their Homeland.

(I wonder if tourists to Cuba ever get to see their political prisons: PayoLibre.com - Cuba - )
 

SantiagoDR

The "REAL" SantiagoDR
Jan 12, 2006
5,808
948
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As someone who is not American, I have visited Cuba on a work trip -

So George, do you agree with the statement made by Musicqueen?

From Musicqueen: Gentlemen and ladies: Have any of you been to Cuba? Seen it as it is now???

Let me tell you, I live among Cubans here in Miami...things are not pretty down there...they would have to do a lot of rebuilding and construct new AI's and fix up their beaches and roads before it even starts affecting the DR...

I personally don't trust anything said by the Cuban exile-commuinity. They are prejudice in that if relations between Cuba and the U.S. changed, they would lose their Immigration advantage.

Is the situation as bad as they claim George? I have not been there so I am not in a position to judge and sounds as if Musicqueen is going by heresay, as she states "Let me tell you, I live among Cubans here in Miami".

"Let me tell you, I worked among Cubans in Miami !!!!"

Don - SantiagoDR
 

AnnaC

Gold
Jan 2, 2002
16,050
418
83
Can we please stick to what affect the changes in Cuba ( if it happens) will have on DR tourism please.



Thanks


PS
seems to me that people that talk the most and know it all have never set foot in Cuba.....
 

cobraboy

Pro-Bono Demolition Hobbyist
Jul 24, 2004
40,964
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seems to me that people that talk the most and know it all have never set foot in Cuba.....
jajajajaja...such is the nature of people. Similar to folks who wax endlessly about economics and politics, yet neither run for office nor have much of a pot to pee in...:D
 

KeithF

New member
Jul 9, 2006
395
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www.cabarete.org
I think many cubans see americans as prosective terrorists and invaders which dates back to our invasion during the Bay of Pigs

I'm sorry, that is nonsense and propaganda put out by your government. When I was there I met a few Americans who had travelled there via Mexico. Each of them (separate parties to each other) said that the Cubans treated them fantastically everywhere they went and were almost 'extra' nice to them because they knew the tourists had made an extra effort to get there. Try reading the US Government 'travel warning' along side the UK 'warning' and wonder if one might be slightly exaggerated (or even BS!)

Cuba
Travel Advice by Country Foreign & Commonwealth Office

If you believe the US one, armed robbery is common place, medical care is poor and you are likely to be shot down by Cuban Air force or taken hostage by people trying to flee. According to the British Government web site "During the weekend of 29 and 30 October 2005 in Havana there were two incidents of robberies from foreign nationals by violence and stabbing." If the UK, USA or DR could go a year with two incidents of violent crime against tourists, I think we'd all be happy.

Cuba is currently 'odd'. I loved the place and would go back in an instant. If it wasn't for the fact I've chosen to invest in DR I'd probably have returned already. Havana is a great city with vibrant people despite the US embargo making life difficult.

Prostitution is rife and open. We would sit on the veranda of a city centre hotel and the prostitutes would just walk round and round the block.

The people are very poor and you have to look a little harder to see it, as an official tour gives you the government 'line'. However, it is possible to talk politics with people if you are subtle and understand that people would be potentially at risk if over heard. I always felt that I was responsible for them if I was going to ask contentious questions. I had a couple of people who felt safe enough to talk to me and to be critical of Castro. One guy was wanting powdered milk for his family. We reckoned it was a scam somewhere along the line but he was interesting to chat with. We took him into a bar and over a beer, I said, "I'll buy you milk if you answer a question honestly", I looked around and silently stroked my chin (a sign that locals use to let each other know they are talking about Castro). He was surprised by this and smiled. I then gently did a 'thumb up/thumb down' sign. He looked around and did a 'thumb down', before saying "if it was the other, I wouldn't need to ask you for milk". It was bizarre that we bought him three beers while talking to him, at US$2 each, when the average wage was about $10 per month. Then we bought him milk, scam or not, he needed it.

Politically, yes there are political prisoners in Cuba, although it could be argued that most of them are in Guantanamo Bay.

Intellectually, the people are generally far better educated than practically anywhere I've ever been. They have more doctors per head of population than any other country in the world. Despite the embargo, they have an infant mortality rate marginally worse than the UK but better than the USA (according to the WHO). (After I typed this I went looking for the figures, since I've not looked since we went there four years ago. The US have now drawn level. The scary thing is to compare Cuba with Dom Rep).

WHO | Cuba Cuba
WHO | Dominican Republic Dominican Republic
WHO | United States of America USA
WHO | United Kingdom UK


Tourism is skewing the economy. We had a doctor driving us in his cab and a lawyer as the bell-boy. Both spoke perfect English and both were pro the government but would like to be able to travel.

We walked everywhere in Havana. If someone attacks a tourist, they are in BIG trouble (10 to 15 years for mugging a tourist). The AI we stayed at for the first week was easily as good as anything we've stayed at in DR and much better than anything on Playas Doradas. The second week we stayed on the outskirts of Havana, in an old 'Russian' style hotel that while modernised, felt 'cold' and impersonal. The Russian Embassy is the biggest building in Havana, and by far the ugliest.

So, getting back to the question, will DR tourism be affected when Castro goes? No, I don't think so.

Firstly, the infrastructure isn't there to immediately 'catch up', both hotels were almost full when we were there, so capacity won't allow for many more. The demographic may change slightly as more US citizens decide to visit, but they have the fear that they've been fed to get over first.

Secondly, Raul Castro is likely to 'hold the fort', so we are really talking about when he goes that things will change. It may be during this time that the Cubans in Florida attempt to take matters into their own hands, if they do, it will be a far from bloodless change of power. Raul will now be in a stronger position due to Chavez in Venezuela propping Cuba up.

Thirdly, once democracy, in what ever form returns, expect all kinds of land grabs and problems related to such. Who owns what? Do people in Florida, who still claim land that their forefathers had to leave when they fled have a stronger claim than someone who has farmed that land for half a century? Almost all land was 'grabbed' if you go back far enough, so how long before you 'own' it? Again, expect instability during this period of time as there is a struggle for ownership. And that will go for real-estate in Havana as much as farm land or coastal plots.

Finally, DR is at a potential 'crossroads'. If the government (ever?) decide to really tackle corruption and invest in the 'people' instead of themselves, they will grow rapidly. Tourist are demanding more and DR is perhaps unique in being able to offer it. Despite the fears sometimes expressed on here, crime is not endemic. Walk Liverpool or Santiago on my own at night? Ill choose Santiago thanks! That is not to say that it is not increasing, obviously it is and the government must tackle it NOW, while it still can. DR can easily diversify. Eco-tourism is a massively booming industry. I read some figures recently that the number of people who mention 'eco' as a factor behind their holiday choice has increased 300% in two years. Still relatively small compared to the 'a beach & a book' trade... at the moment. But all signs are it will continue to grow. If the DR is ready, it will catch the wave. Already, there are signs that tourists are moving away from the AI's. I'd be surprised if the government haven't realised that tourism is the only realistic way of maintaining growth in GDP. Therefore, how long will they risk it being damaged by 'crime' real or perceived? One of the reasons that we decided to buy property there was if (when) duty is imposed on long haul flights, to try and reduce it for ecological reason, the Europeans will not go to DR in as many numbers but I think Canadians & US will go more, so our investment should be safe, even if we never get there ourselves!

Cuba is a beautiful, friendly, enigmatic country. Dom Rep is that bit more refined... and has a head start that they would have to be both blind AND stupid to miss.
 

KeithF

New member
Jul 9, 2006
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Are we back to the "only those who have done something or been somewhere can speak with authority" argument?

Just checking.

Dunno if this is something personal between you two, in which case, don't shoot, I'll just step slowly and quietly back to the door and leave you to it!

But if it was genuine, I do think a lot of people who are US citizens are fed a lot of BS by their government re Cuba, hence the original quote by something_of_the_night of me stating "I'm sorry, that is nonsense and propaganda put out by your government." Because of that, I think you do have to go and experience it for yourself or talk to people who have. As for "only those who have done something or been somewhere can speak with authority", well, I've got some pretty firm views about the Middle East and there ain't no way I've been there or would go there in a hurry! That incidentally, was another criteria for where we invested, no religious "tensions" and no oil reserves worth fighting over!

As Mark Twain said, "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness"
 

something_of_the_night

Has left the building...
Feb 7, 2006
993
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Dunno if this is something personal between you two, in which case, don't shoot, I'll just step slowly and quietly back to the door and leave you to it!

But if it was genuine, I do think a lot of people who are US citizens are fed a lot of BS by their government re Cuba, hence the original quote by something_of_the_night of me stating "I'm sorry, that is nonsense and propaganda put out by your government."

As Mark Twain said, "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness"

Genuine on my part. See, I can take batting instructions from a has-been or a bench-warmer or even from a casual observer of the game, but when it comes to stuff like this, it's best to take it directly from someone who has been there.