Worldpress Article on Sonia Pierre and Human Rights for Dominico-Haitians

Good job!

The article was balanced and clearly presented both side of the argument.

I don't agree with a few things Sonia Pierre mentioned, but I usually find myself agreeing and simultaneously disagreeing with her everytime I read or hear her say something about such matters.

In any case, this has to be one of the best written pieces of a topic as delicate as this one.

Often times, I find myself disagreeing with the tone and general image such articles present of the DR, it sort of feels as if they are truly anti-dominican. This article, however, did not gave me such feeling. On the contrary, the feeling I get is that the DR is not being mocked as the worst place on earth, but rather a place with its problems and people disagree as to what should be done or even why such problems exist.

All in all, a fair report. Good job!

-NALs

In your article you refer to these Haitians born in the DR whose parents are illegally in the DR as people without a state, yet under Haitian law they are Haitians. Should you not have mentioned this as part of your fair and balanced reporting.

JZ,

All in all a pretty good report but??? as Bob mentioned, and my opinion also, was the lack of stating that which is written in the Haitian constitution and also their lack of ability to hold dual citizenship. It is my opinion that such reporting would have a tendency to present a clearer distinction in the discrepancies of both governments in their constitutional make-up. A form of, shall we say, evenness in reporting so that an uninformed reader would walk away with the thoughts that both governments need to get their acts together rather then giving the impression that it is only the Dominican government that is to blame.

Just my dos centavos.

Rick

you should try not to depend on an ambassador to tell you what you aught to know.

JZ,

LOL, yes, yes I concur. If the ambassador failed to mention it then by all means there was no reason to insert it into the article. When you place it in that context then I understand and fully agree with you.

Have a Merry Christmas and happy New Year.

Rick

Edited to add;
I only wish to point out that if you are to bring up "born on Dominican soil" at any point in the conversation as it pertains to the Dominican constitution then I only feel it proper to mention what the Haitian constitution says about "born on Dominican soil". Nothing more nothing less.

Jzakattack said:

Rick --

You and Bob both seem to be standing by the argument that what's written in the Haitian Constitution pre-empts what's already written in the Dominican Constitution regarding those born on Dominican soil. While perhaps I should have added something to that effect in the piece, it wasn't one of the arguments made to me in the course of my interview with the Ambassador, who (obviously) is the voice of the Dominican government within the U.S. Indeed, he made no mention of the Haitian Constitution or Haiti's continued responsibilities for any of these people.

JZ

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Just in case there is a misunderstanding, I don't agree with the DR Government stand on this issue, but i took issue with the "people without a State" statement. These are your words, not the Ambassadors. Dominicans that have a child in the USA, the child is American, but the child is also considered Dominican. The Supreme court of the DR interpreted the Constitution differently than the international community.

Opinion

JZ

As an American I understand and see the plight of the Hatians here on a daily basis and understand the importance of resolvng the issues. Unfortunately I pesonally think you hace a certain premeditated bias based on two fact. One, you mention "dark-skinned" 3 times and my question would be why? The issue with racism is not rooted in "color" as much as "culture". Also, the fact that the statements about the status of Haitians born in the DR is at the very least incorrect if not grossly misleading given the nuances of both countries laws on the topic. It's almost as if, by the mere insignificant fact that Haitians are typically(not always) darker than there Dom. neighbors that they are slighted accordingly. Maybe I'm wrong, but it's almost as if you've brought that attitude we left back in the states that's "it's all about the color" down here. If I may state again as I did in my pm to you earlier, you need to LIVE here to understand that it is not "all about the color" but a cultural phenomenom traced back to the founding of both countries. Just to add a few "examples" that it's not all about the color my wife's grandfather was Haitian and although my wife is lighter her brother is as dark as many Haitians. People my play with him about his darkness but he certainly isn't shunned by any means. Again, if you spent any time here you would realize there are many important, wealthy businessmen virtually indistinguishible from Haitians. In today's world of political correctness this "topic" is easy pickens for instant sympathy. This however, WILL NOT help the DR nor Haiti move forward. The DR is a poor country already with scary issues of violence. This very lack of money does not allow them to control their borders nor CARE for the marginilized. What WILL happen with external pressure is one very simple, fact: the exportation of the Haitians living here. WHY? International pressure will push the Dominicans back into a corner to accept these immigrants as citizens, and then grant them rights accordingly, which honestly won't count for much. What they will surely do clandestinely, AS HAPPENS ALL THE TIME, is ship the Haitians back home. The Dominican government can barely and usually doesn't even take care of it's own, how can they be expected to care for immigrants, ESPECIALLY if the Haitians will know beforehand that they their children will born citizens here? Why does the international community on take the "easy" politically correct path of putting the blame on the DR when Haiti has made such a mess of things at their own home. The international community NEEDS to know that the most important thing that can be done for the HAITIANS and the island as a whole is a STABLE Haiti, PLEASE invest time and resources to find a solution tin Haiti first and the solution here in the DR will follow!

It pains me to see the Haitians suffer and I am always friendly to them and give them water. Before I got married I tavelled to Dajabon and was really touched by their plight and made a large donation to a Catholic Church there. The man up stairs gave us a brain to use to solve problems and I implore to you, a person of influence to focus on effecting change in Haiti first.

Sincerely,

Chip

PS see photo of "dark skinned" brother in law.

Jzakattack,

Great arcticle and I commend you for writing the facts regarding dominicans of haitian descent in the DR. Your article was not bias at all and brought out a delicate subject that has been kept under the rug far too long.

Many have stated that the Haitian Constitution states that any children born to haitian parents are haitians which isn't true. For one the Haitian constitution has been revised so many times to suit foreign interest that it's an insult to the Haitian people. It would appear claiming haitians born in x country are haitians would seal the case but the fact is that part of the Haitian constitution was indeed rectified. Thus, that's why a candidate in the last election Simeon was disqualified. According to the Haitian constitution any haitian national that becomes a citizen of another country is no longer considered Haitian. Now this man was born on haitian soil and wasn't recognised as a Haitian as soon as he became a US citizen. Now foreros how can haitian descendants born on foreign soil be considered Haitians? Haiti doesn't recognise dual citizenship nor haitians that have given up their haitian passport for a foreign one.


It's ironic how dominicans from abroad are against haitian descendants becoming dominican nationals but on the other hand rant about illegal dominican rights on foreign soil. Please be consistent with your beliefs. Besides, many haitian descendants do not speak creole nor french and are completely dominicanised. Should the Haitian government fear the dominicanisation of Haiti once these stateless people are sent to the west side of the island which they never stepped foot on?

I will reiterate that this subject is very delicate and complex which will not be resolved over night. One has to take the history of both countries that shares 1 island into consideration to begin to understand why both countries have been living years without really looking at each other in the mirror.

Chip00,

The american living in the DR I respect your opinion but you will never understand the situation between the two countries. As a Haitian and many dominican friends that I have, we still are confused to why both countries are always quarreling. So you can't tell us(Haitians & Dominicans) that you can empathise with our plight. You may have a good insight but never fully understand sense we, ourselvees, don't understand.

Race does having something to do with it. In the states it's between blacks and whites but down here it's between negros & mulattos both having a common lineage. BTw, according to haitian law your dominican wife is really a haitian national since her grandfather was haitian. Trujillo should be considered haitian too like millions of other dominicans who have haitian blood o mejor dicho african blood. A big taboo word on the east side of the island. Recall in the DR morenos are dark skin indians. Thus, it is you, unconciously, applying US ideology. Your brother in law is a indio oscuro with taino traits in the DR. But lets not get into race and analyse your statement. Your brother in law being of darker hue sometimes gets labelled as a Haitian. Tell me why? Hope he never gets caught up in a raid and shipped to his beloved darker side of the island. We really appreciate the kindness and the good gester of an american but the truth of the matter is we barely understand ourselves so I doubt that a foreignor can. We thank for your donations and appreciate your hospitality. merci.

Also, let us not blame the haitian people for all of haiti's problems. Remember during the last coup d'etat where the rebels came from and who supplied them with AK 47 given to the dominican government a year earlier from the some government up North. We are all responsible for the situation in haiti at the current moment directly or indirectly. Situations are far worst when Aristide was strong armed out of his country. Let us not forget the facts and also let us not forget the restitution owed to the haitian people by the Republic of France. The new puppets in haiti will never remind the public money that is rightfully ours. All people will see us poor haiti and without scratching the surface to see the truth.

Thank you..

Quisqueya,

Though I appreciate your input into this thread the lack of links to validate statements made make it very difficult to debate that which is presented. Normal procedure is to substantiate that which you wish to present to the board. I am referring to the Haitian constitution which I find here.

According to this article it seems that the typical procedure of ?failure to follow that which is written? is the procedure followed by the Haitian government and not a case of changing the constitution per se. Of course this is true here in the DR also in that they ?fail to follow that which is written? but two wrongs don?t make a right.

For those that happen to question the Dominican government and their refusal to follow a world court order should look at this case to see if there are any similarities. Just food for thought.

Back to the Haitian constitutional questions. It is due to the 1987 constitution that disallowed Dumarsais Sim?us to run for president. Even though he had a Haitian Supreme Court ruling to allow his name to be added to the ballot he was refused to run by the election officials. My question to you as a Haitian is who was correct, the Supreme Court or the constitution? There is also the case of Group 184's Andy Apaid!

On 29 Mar 05 President Jean Bertrand Aristide gave tribute to the Haitian constitution on its 18th anniversary by stating that it, the constitution of 87, ?is the only lasting solution to the Haitian crisis?.

All my research fails to find any occurrences of changes or attempted changes to the Haitian constitution but rather a strong alliance to its existence though there is the fact that there are those cases where it isn?t followed or enforced.

Rick

Here is a question for Jzakattack:

Are you planning to write another article which would present some of the information being debated here?

If so, I'll be inclined to express my opinion on what has been stated here by many, which I tend to agree with them.

However, if you are not planning to do such, I will reiterate that you did a good job in the article.

I say such because the article is in fact, based on Sonia Pierre's award on her quest for Human Rights to be observed or so she claims. Given who is the central figure in the article, it was almost a given that the article would be slightly slanted to favor the Haitians over the Dominicans.

Having said that, the article treated the Dominican side of the argument with more respect and attention than is usually the case in articles written of this subject and for that I congratulate you.

BTW, notice that one of the main arguments made against Dominicans is that Dominicans will always object to the issue of Haitians being granted Dominican citizenship.

Notice that a good number of the people (in fact, the person who brought the issue of citizenship which is being debated on this thread) is an non-Dominican. I think Bob is either American or Canadian, not sure, but I am sure he's not Dominican and neither is Rick nor Chip.

On the other hand, Quisqueya is a Haitian and I am a Dominican.

I mention this so you can see that the prevailing notion out there that only a Dominican would object to Haitians receiving Dominican citizenship is flawed. Non-Dominicans who have knowledge of the constitution of both countries eventually come to the conclusion that stateless children should not exist on Hispaniola.

When the constitution of one country (the DR) doesn't grant citizenship to a son/daughter of a Haitian, the Haitian constitution certainly will. And it's true what Quisqueya mentioned, once a Haitian loses his Haitian citizenship or pledges allegiance to a foreign government, such Haitian will lose his Haitian citizenship forever.

But, the Haitian constitution grants Haitian citizenship to the sons and daughters of all Haitians in the world. That means, that if a child is born with at least one Haitian citizen on Dominican soil; because the Dominican constitution categorizes them as "in transit" that would mean that such child will have to be declared as a Haitian citizen.

Since such child has no claim to Dominican citizenship or any other citizenship of the world, the only citizenship available and constitutionally guaranteed to him/her is the Haitian citizenship as the constitution of such country states.

It's similar to the Dominican side of the coin, where the sons/daughter of at least one Dominican citizen is entitled to Dominican citizenship upon request. The DR even makes things easier by allowing dual status.

But, Haiti is Haiti and DR is DR.

-NALs

Sonia Pierre is not Haitian. She is Dominican of haitian descent. Thus, I see her view points as dominican. IMO, JZattack wrote in a neutral manner stating the facts and the opinions of both sides.

It's obvious there is a grey area in the Haitian constitution as well as the dominican constitution. "Transit" is so general which leaves a revolving door to suit the needs of the dominican government when neccesary. When does a person stop being in "transit". According to the dominican constitution & your convictions then alot of the dominican population are still in transit. There are many other illegal foreignors residing in Sto Dgo I doubt this bias law applies to them. The fact of the matter is this leak needs to be fixed. In the 20th century Hispaniolans(Haitians & Dominicans) should have proof of place of birth which is the first step of recognition. Let's be responsible for the future generations.


Este tema es muy delicado. Los extranjeros tienen sus opiniones. Quizas usted est? equivocado o no pero es un injusto. Los dominicano-haitianos tienen todo el derecho como los dominicano-X. Escuche! mire en el espejo. Uds. pueden encontrar la respuesta. Que Pena!!! Si Hait? fuera un pais lleno de blancos los dominicanos nos dar?a "a welcoming party".

NALs said:

...But, Haiti is Haiti and DR is DR. -NALs

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NALs, you might as well stop arguing this moot question. Ms Solange Pie is right, and the Dominican nationality of children born in the DR from Haitian migrant workers is a done deal. Also, we?re stuck with about a million Haitian migrants and their families now living permanently in the DR. It is unrealistic to expect Haiti, a failed state, to take back the Haitians that have moved to the DR. Do you realize that children born in Haiti are not routinely issued birth certificates? Are you aware that the great majority of Haitian migrant workers in the DR do not possess any identification whatsoever. So how can you expect a foreign consular office, in this case Haitian, to issue a birth certificate or passport to someone who just walks in from the street and requests it by saying he/she is Haitian? Also, too bad the DR signed both the UN Convention on the Rights of Children, and the charter that set up the Inter-American Court of Human Rights. Only the U.S. can get away with not abiding to international conventions. The Haitians are here to stay. We are obliged to take care of the children. Live with it!

Mirador,


I guess they assume that any dark skin person that goes to the Haitian Consulate asking for citizenship should be automatically granted on the premises of being dark skin. Why not round up morenos throughout the country and send them to haiti. Dominican territory has 4th generation haitian descendant. Do you mean to tell me these people consider themselves haitian. They'll be the first to tell you that they are indio oscuro. BTW, there are alot of dominican descendants in Haiti as well. Do you people consider these haitian of dominican descent dominicans? They'll be the first ones to tell you that they are Haitian 100%. People wake up. People on the island have been mixing and crossing the french territory and spanish territory for centuries. Let's just continue to play pretend and make believe haitians are from mars and dominicans are from venus. While the worst of the world evolves people on that island will continue to live in a twilight zone.

chao.

Quisqueya said:

Si Hait? fuera un pais lleno de blancos los dominicanos nos dar?a "a welcoming party".

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That is the most absurd thing you have said!

The only truth in such logic is that if both DR and Haiti had identical populations with no alternative people (not even as a minority), you will not be able to say such thing.

Answer me the following:

Do Venezuelans give a welcome party to Colombians?

Do Italians give a welcome party to the French?

Do Japanese give a welcome party to the Koreans?

Let's face it Quisqueya, neighbors are always the worst of friends and the best of enemies!

It has nothing to do with anything else, its only a matter of too many people coming from one source via unofficial means, nothing more and nothing less.

We have debated this to such a degree over the years that its almost ridiculous.

-NALs

Mirador said:

NALs, you might as well stop arguing this moot question. Ms Solange Pie is right, and the Dominican nationality of children born in the DR from Haitian migrant workers is a done deal. Also, we?re stuck with about a million Haitian migrants and their families now living permanently in the DR. It is unrealistic to expect Haiti, a failed state, to take back the Haitians that have moved to the DR. Do you realize that children born in Haiti are not routinely issued birth certificates? Are you aware that the great majority of Haitian migrant workers in the DR do not possess any identification whatsoever. So how can you expect a foreign consular office, in this case Haitian, to issue a birth certificate or passport to someone who just walks in from the street and requests it by saying he/she is Haitian? Also, too bad the DR signed both the UN Convention on the Rights of Children, and the charter that set up the Inter-American Court of Human Rights. Only the U.S. can get away with not abiding to international conventions. The Haitians are here to stay. We are obliged to take care of the children. Live with it!

Click to expand...

Mirador,

Personally I am not even asking for Haitians to leave the DR and I don't wish that either.

What I would like is for them to seek the proper identification (in this case citizenship) as it pertains to them according to the constitution of either nations on the island. Once they move into the legal framework of things, then we can move into other issues.

Yes, the children must be taken cared of and as far as I know, that is being done. Oh, that all the children are not being helped? Well, the same holds true for Dominican children, so what could be expected of the others! But, the Dominican state, at least officially, no longer demands cedulas for children to be matriculated into public schools. That's a step in living up to the agreement of taking care of the children. But, that is not what is being debated here, but rather the problem of illegality, the rights illegality denies many of those people, and the problem of them going from illegal status to legal.

BTW, the Haitian consulate in Santo Domingo is already granting Haitian citizenship to the sons/daughters of Haitian migrants in the DR. That is being done on the orders of Rene Preval who earlier this year agreed with the fact that the sons/daughters of Haitian migrants in the DR should and would receive Haitian citizenship and he ordered the Haitian consulate in Santo Domingo to do such! That is quite a change from the stand Aristide took towards this issue.

In other words, the Haitian government recognizes its duty to recognize its people as it states on its own constitution. Right now, the only Haitians who object to such action by their own government are civilians and those who are expatriates like Quisqueya. Why? Only they know the answer as to why, but their government agrees that they need to give Haitian citizenship to sons/daughters of Haitian migrants and they are doing that. To the detriment of those like Quisqueya who wishes the Haitian government to act more like Aristide did, who refused to recognize such children as Haitian even though the constitution of Haiti makes it clear they would qualify.

Once they are granted their documents, they would be able to apply for visas and such and be in the country legally. They will be able to opt for Dominican citizenship once they spend the amount of time necessary in the DR to be able to apply for such, etc.

The Dominican state can do any of the following three things and I would be in favor of any of the three:

1. Grant Dominican citizenship to everyone within Dominican territory at the time such thing is mentioned. From that point forward, foreigners entering the country will need to have proper documentation or face deportation regardless who they are, where they are from, etc.

2. DR suggest Haiti to become some sort of Dominican protectorate or commonwealth or something in which the DR will be officially responsible for Haiti's economic, political, and military well being.

3. DR create a delegation which will propose and present official complaints to international organizations of the rich countries neglect of Haiti, it's people, and government.

Any of the three I would support!

-NALs