Today on DR1 News Leonel says that the Metro will be cheap. I now have proof that drug use has permeated Dominican society all the way up to the Presidential Palace. Ay dios mio.:ermm:
- Thread starter Frank the Tank
- Start date
Metro will be "cheap" ja ja ja ja
Frank,
I took the liberty of moving your thread from 'Government' to 'Debates' merely due to the fact that you may get some arguement as to the validity of 'crack heads' walking the corridors of the PALACIO NACIONAL.
Rick
I took the liberty of moving your thread from 'Government' to 'Debates' merely due to the fact that you may get some arguement as to the validity of 'crack heads' walking the corridors of the PALACIO NACIONAL.
Rick
From DR1 news today;
"President Leonel Fernandez is standing firmly behind the idea that the Santo Domingo metro will cost US$550 million and said that it would be one of the cheapest metros in the world. Fernandez also said that with bonuses contracted by former President Hipolito Mejia for US$1.1 billion, the country would be able to build three metro lines. Fernandez also justified the metro project by saying that Santo Domingo's population is set to grow to more than six million in the next 20 years."
Rick
"President Leonel Fernandez is standing firmly behind the idea that the Santo Domingo metro will cost US$550 million and said that it would be one of the cheapest metros in the world. Fernandez also said that with bonuses contracted by former President Hipolito Mejia for US$1.1 billion, the country would be able to build three metro lines. Fernandez also justified the metro project by saying that Santo Domingo's population is set to grow to more than six million in the next 20 years."
Rick
What is President Fern?ndez referring to when he says "cheap". Is it the fare? Iv'e heard several figures regarding the estimated operational cost per passenger to travel on the DR metro, and they range between 100 to 140 pesos. If the metro is to compete with current public transportation (buses and conchos), then the fare cannot be higher than 25 pesos. If the government has to subsidize the operational cost, and the metro is designed to transport about 35,000 passengers/day, taking the minimum estimated operational cost of 100 pesos/passenger, then we're talking about a direct government subsidy of over 2.5 million pesos per day, or almost 1000 million pesos per year. Now, does that sound cheap?!!!!
Its probably gonna cost even more than that, once you figure in the investment/capital/interest costs.
There's more to the story than has been presented on DR1.
Leonel is making a comparison between the projected cost for the SD metro vs. the cost of other similar metros elsewhere. Leonel compared the costs of Puerto Rico's metro at over $3 billion with SDQ's metro's cost at $550 million despite similarities in length and other factors; in that sense the metro's total cost for the initial line is cheap, could possibly be the cheapest in the world although I'm not sure on that. But for certain, its cheaper than $3 billion for one line.
Also, he mentioned how members of the opposition (principally PRD) who once criticized him for building the tunnels and expressways during his first term, once the PRD was in power they promised to build an expressway in Villa Mella but it didn't materialized. Thus, not only did the opposition (who often tend to be the critics as well) contradicted themselves by promising to build the very same thing they were rejecting and criticizing during Leonel's first term, but they couldn't even built what they said they would despite the loans made for such project.
The following are quotes from the news article on Hoy newspaper:
"El gobierno invertir? alrededor de US$550 millones en la construcci?n del Metro de Santo Domingo..."
"...el Metro de Puerto Rico cost? US$3,500 millones, y su extensi?n es la misma que tendr? el de Santo Domingo, que es de 16 kil?metros."
"El mandatario dijo que los opositores de la obra pronosticaron que con la misma se desestabilizar?a la econom?a dominicana, pero no ha sido as? porque ?sta ha seguido funcionando con solidez, estabilidad y crecimiento."
" 'El pasado gobierno, cuando era oposici?n, criticaba la construcci?n de t?neles y elevados, y cuando llegaron quer?an hacer un elevado desde Villa Mella a la avenida San Mart?n pero fracasaron, y en esa misma v?a se levanta el metro, es un problema de ser eficiente o no.' "
" 'Hablaron de construir un tren de Haina a Santiago y no lo hubo, pero nosotros lo que decimos lo hacemos, somos eficientes.' "
Click on the link to read the full story:
Gobierno estima el Metro costar? US$550 millones
-NALs
Leonel is making a comparison between the projected cost for the SD metro vs. the cost of other similar metros elsewhere. Leonel compared the costs of Puerto Rico's metro at over $3 billion with SDQ's metro's cost at $550 million despite similarities in length and other factors; in that sense the metro's total cost for the initial line is cheap, could possibly be the cheapest in the world although I'm not sure on that. But for certain, its cheaper than $3 billion for one line.
Also, he mentioned how members of the opposition (principally PRD) who once criticized him for building the tunnels and expressways during his first term, once the PRD was in power they promised to build an expressway in Villa Mella but it didn't materialized. Thus, not only did the opposition (who often tend to be the critics as well) contradicted themselves by promising to build the very same thing they were rejecting and criticizing during Leonel's first term, but they couldn't even built what they said they would despite the loans made for such project.
The following are quotes from the news article on Hoy newspaper:
"El gobierno invertir? alrededor de US$550 millones en la construcci?n del Metro de Santo Domingo..."
"...el Metro de Puerto Rico cost? US$3,500 millones, y su extensi?n es la misma que tendr? el de Santo Domingo, que es de 16 kil?metros."
"El mandatario dijo que los opositores de la obra pronosticaron que con la misma se desestabilizar?a la econom?a dominicana, pero no ha sido as? porque ?sta ha seguido funcionando con solidez, estabilidad y crecimiento."
" 'El pasado gobierno, cuando era oposici?n, criticaba la construcci?n de t?neles y elevados, y cuando llegaron quer?an hacer un elevado desde Villa Mella a la avenida San Mart?n pero fracasaron, y en esa misma v?a se levanta el metro, es un problema de ser eficiente o no.' "
" 'Hablaron de construir un tren de Haina a Santiago y no lo hubo, pero nosotros lo que decimos lo hacemos, somos eficientes.' "
Click on the link to read the full story:
Gobierno estima el Metro costar? US$550 millones
-NALs
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The SD Metro has been projected to have a daily ridership of about 200,000 people. The problem with this figure is that from all metros throughout the world the proposed ridership has always been at least 33% to 55% above the reality of ridership once a system is operational.
The SD Metro will operate in what I consider amounts to a perpetual budget crisis if a person is to look at all other public transportation projects throughout the world. And when you factor in the Dominican way of doing things it is readily conceivable that a budget crisis will and must ensue. The costs to build and operate this metro will rise faster than revenues, and budgets will have to be balanced by fare increases. Needless to say increased fares always leads to reduced ridership.
With the projected growth in SD that the president mentions the idea of increased ridership is only a pipe dream if the people can?t afford a ticket without subsidization. If subsidization is the end means, which I have no doubt will be required, then the people are faced with the same problems as those found in the LP gas and electricity sectors not to mention the proposed subsidies being demanded in the present public transportation sector.
In addition I think it is interesting to note the wheeling and dealing being done in the present court case concerning the ?freedom of information? law as it relates to the release of the prior study plans of the metro. The position that LF took on that issue was a direct quote out of the GW Bush manual on ?How to screw the people in the name of security?.
This project along with almost everything else attempted in this country will end up as being a very painful endeavor for the Dominican people. If the government had any sense at all they would hand out jars of Vaseline to facilitate that the people didn?t hurt so terribly much.
Rick
As a side note;
You may notice the out of country construction expert notating Dominican news articles but those of us in the know seem to have a proven acceptance to such reports for their real value or lack thereof. Regardless of that fact there is the word ?estima? that jumps up at me and transports me back to the prices forecasted for other such projects around the world and things like bridges here in this country.
The SD Metro will operate in what I consider amounts to a perpetual budget crisis if a person is to look at all other public transportation projects throughout the world. And when you factor in the Dominican way of doing things it is readily conceivable that a budget crisis will and must ensue. The costs to build and operate this metro will rise faster than revenues, and budgets will have to be balanced by fare increases. Needless to say increased fares always leads to reduced ridership.
With the projected growth in SD that the president mentions the idea of increased ridership is only a pipe dream if the people can?t afford a ticket without subsidization. If subsidization is the end means, which I have no doubt will be required, then the people are faced with the same problems as those found in the LP gas and electricity sectors not to mention the proposed subsidies being demanded in the present public transportation sector.
In addition I think it is interesting to note the wheeling and dealing being done in the present court case concerning the ?freedom of information? law as it relates to the release of the prior study plans of the metro. The position that LF took on that issue was a direct quote out of the GW Bush manual on ?How to screw the people in the name of security?.
This project along with almost everything else attempted in this country will end up as being a very painful endeavor for the Dominican people. If the government had any sense at all they would hand out jars of Vaseline to facilitate that the people didn?t hurt so terribly much.
Rick
As a side note;
You may notice the out of country construction expert notating Dominican news articles but those of us in the know seem to have a proven acceptance to such reports for their real value or lack thereof. Regardless of that fact there is the word ?estima? that jumps up at me and transports me back to the prices forecasted for other such projects around the world and things like bridges here in this country.
The "METRO" Will Be Heavily Subsidised!!!
Not only will the true costs never be revealed,the entire country will be forever subsidising the few who will actually ride the thing! The costs will never be revealed,#1 because then we would know how much for the "Metro",and how much for "Yepetas"! # 2,because the actual amount spent for consruction will be many times 550 million US $, and # 3,because the government NEVER tells the people ANYTHING!
Just as the 2 Billion US $ spent on the bailout of the RICH who lost money in the Baniter fiasco took the wind out of the Dominican economy a few years ago,the "Metro" will do the same over the next decade. Baniter was over after the payoffs were made. The "METRO" will be the ,"Gift That Keeps On "Taking" long into the future. Maybe the DR can use the tunnel to grow mushrooms when the trains stop running! (Assuming the ever start runnung)More likely it will be used for "low cost" housing!
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Anyone want to wager weather "L" takes the first ride in Feb. 2008 as he stated this years????????????
Not only will the true costs never be revealed,the entire country will be forever subsidising the few who will actually ride the thing! The costs will never be revealed,#1 because then we would know how much for the "Metro",and how much for "Yepetas"! # 2,because the actual amount spent for consruction will be many times 550 million US $, and # 3,because the government NEVER tells the people ANYTHING!
Just as the 2 Billion US $ spent on the bailout of the RICH who lost money in the Baniter fiasco took the wind out of the Dominican economy a few years ago,the "Metro" will do the same over the next decade. Baniter was over after the payoffs were made. The "METRO" will be the ,"Gift That Keeps On "Taking" long into the future. Maybe the DR can use the tunnel to grow mushrooms when the trains stop running! (Assuming the ever start runnung)More likely it will be used for "low cost" housing!
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Anyone want to wager weather "L" takes the first ride in Feb. 2008 as he stated this years????????????
It is vox populi that "L" will resign immediately upon loosing the primaries tomorrow to Danilo Medina, and will leave the presidency to the Vice President, Rafaelito Alburquerque...
Don't try to divert this thread! Especially with silly statements. We get enough of them from the 'construction expert'.
Economist Mag-Metro
A recent edition of The Economist mag has an interesting article on Leonel & the metro.....sorry don't know date of the mag as I passed it on already. It was favorable to the project as I remember. Half a billion or so for 16 clicks of a metro sounds reasonable as such projects go, and the city certainly needs it now, and will bleed for one in years to come if it's not done. I don't think its so much about subsidies or paying for it, it's a matter of gridlock or no gridlock, and environmental concerns with air quality and total dependence on imported fuels, not to mention cheap public transport that could limit the 'publicos' and shabby-arsed taxis and motoconchos that are so annoying.
A recent edition of The Economist mag has an interesting article on Leonel & the metro.....sorry don't know date of the mag as I passed it on already. It was favorable to the project as I remember. Half a billion or so for 16 clicks of a metro sounds reasonable as such projects go, and the city certainly needs it now, and will bleed for one in years to come if it's not done. I don't think its so much about subsidies or paying for it, it's a matter of gridlock or no gridlock, and environmental concerns with air quality and total dependence on imported fuels, not to mention cheap public transport that could limit the 'publicos' and shabby-arsed taxis and motoconchos that are so annoying.
Tflea your assessment to the problems faced in the capitol are true as they relate to smog and gridlock.
In your post I find just a little fault in that the cost figure at this point is only speculation and if we use history as a ruling factor in such things you are sure to find that the final expenditures will far exceed that which is mentioned. Depending on how far the cost exceeds the quoted amount will determine who says it is worth it. There are those that will say that any cost is worth the end result, (End justifies the means), and say go for it and there are those that don't feel that way. Regardless of which way you personally feel concerning this project I hope you keep in mind the vast majority of Dominicans that will reap absolutely no benefit from this endeavor but will continue to pay for it for more then one generation.
Those 'annoying publicos and shabby-arsed taxis and motoconchos' are one of the main livelihoods of many Dominicans in the capitol and throughout this country and any attempt to circumvent said livelihood will more than likely be met with stiff resistance by the wage earners and the unions so this is a problem that must be entered into the equation.
In addition, the fact that those transports that you mentioned are presently considered cheap, especially considering the proposed price to ride the metro, would more then likely insure a lower ridership on the metro.
I know your heart is in the right place as it deals with the problems of the nation but in a nation that requires so very much I honestly feel that all that money could and should be spent on things that will benefit the population as a whole rather then such a small segment.
Rick
In your post I find just a little fault in that the cost figure at this point is only speculation and if we use history as a ruling factor in such things you are sure to find that the final expenditures will far exceed that which is mentioned. Depending on how far the cost exceeds the quoted amount will determine who says it is worth it. There are those that will say that any cost is worth the end result, (End justifies the means), and say go for it and there are those that don't feel that way. Regardless of which way you personally feel concerning this project I hope you keep in mind the vast majority of Dominicans that will reap absolutely no benefit from this endeavor but will continue to pay for it for more then one generation.
Those 'annoying publicos and shabby-arsed taxis and motoconchos' are one of the main livelihoods of many Dominicans in the capitol and throughout this country and any attempt to circumvent said livelihood will more than likely be met with stiff resistance by the wage earners and the unions so this is a problem that must be entered into the equation.
In addition, the fact that those transports that you mentioned are presently considered cheap, especially considering the proposed price to ride the metro, would more then likely insure a lower ridership on the metro.
I know your heart is in the right place as it deals with the problems of the nation but in a nation that requires so very much I honestly feel that all that money could and should be spent on things that will benefit the population as a whole rather then such a small segment.
Rick
Well, I dont know why people are still getting worked up over this...whats done is done! I think it was a big mistake of the government to build a metro at this time, but what are we going to do? The construction started already.
"Cheap" is a relative term.
Let's consider some of the factors.
1) It's very expensive by DR standards. Sure, but....
Let's try to calculate the millions of gallons of petrol and corresponding savings in cost to buy, that will stay in DR and not in Chavez's coffers by having hundreds of chatarras (very old cars), taken off the streets and prevented from contributing to lung cancer, etc.
2) By removing all these carcinogen causers, (chatarras), traffic will once again flow smoother, thereby saving big bucks in fuel by having cars actually move, rather than idle in one spot for hours on end. Try to calculate how much ga$ is wasted by grid lock.
3) Sooner or later, in spite of this metro sucking up $$$, that should have gone to social programs, it would've had to be built. (My only complain is that it should have been built later than sooner.)
4) This metro will invariably need to have a permanent power source. Because of that, our dear government will doubtless build redundant electrical power plants to keep it running uninterrupted. The excess power can be routed to fee the city grid.
5) How much is a gallon of gas? How much does electricity cost in terms of wattage?
When we consider all, and see the big picture, the word "cheap", is right-on!
Let's consider some of the factors.
1) It's very expensive by DR standards. Sure, but....
Let's try to calculate the millions of gallons of petrol and corresponding savings in cost to buy, that will stay in DR and not in Chavez's coffers by having hundreds of chatarras (very old cars), taken off the streets and prevented from contributing to lung cancer, etc.
2) By removing all these carcinogen causers, (chatarras), traffic will once again flow smoother, thereby saving big bucks in fuel by having cars actually move, rather than idle in one spot for hours on end. Try to calculate how much ga$ is wasted by grid lock.
3) Sooner or later, in spite of this metro sucking up $$$, that should have gone to social programs, it would've had to be built. (My only complain is that it should have been built later than sooner.)
4) This metro will invariably need to have a permanent power source. Because of that, our dear government will doubtless build redundant electrical power plants to keep it running uninterrupted. The excess power can be routed to fee the city grid.
5) How much is a gallon of gas? How much does electricity cost in terms of wattage?
When we consider all, and see the big picture, the word "cheap", is right-on!
Understood
Rick, I understand the need now for publicos and the unions and the rest of the that. A rising tide lifts all boats. The cost WILL overrun and the time WILL overrun like it did in San Francisco, Atlanta, Dallas, Miami, Santiago, Sao Paulo and other places, but once it's built, voi la !! Suddenly the 'visonairies' are heroes. It will be after Leonel is done with his possible 08-12 run, and hopefully some other 'fulano' will keep it going if its not finished. Leonel has a vision with clarity that I find refreshing, and I know of the baggage he has to carry to get re-elected, but the man is Harvard educated, he's got a vision for the country, and I hope he has another term in office, because he can't be elected again, and he'll have nothing to lose in moving the country forward after re-election, and can tell the 'money guys' to **** off. I've seen a lot of money spent here friviously over the years, and it continues and it is very sad with all the needs in education and social programs and one could go on and on. But this very short-term vision that most Dominicans have is auto-destructive. Hopefully by the time you and I are pushing up daiseys (dead), things will slowly move to the 21st century.
Hell, I just donated and planted 500 flamboyan trees to make a flower of beauty tunnel from Sabaneta de Cangrejo to Sosua Abjao that I'll probably never to get to see in full fruition, but I don't care, because one day........
Thank you for your input....I know how aplatenado you are and I appreciate your views. Sorry for the long-windedness.
Rick, I understand the need now for publicos and the unions and the rest of the that. A rising tide lifts all boats. The cost WILL overrun and the time WILL overrun like it did in San Francisco, Atlanta, Dallas, Miami, Santiago, Sao Paulo and other places, but once it's built, voi la !! Suddenly the 'visonairies' are heroes. It will be after Leonel is done with his possible 08-12 run, and hopefully some other 'fulano' will keep it going if its not finished. Leonel has a vision with clarity that I find refreshing, and I know of the baggage he has to carry to get re-elected, but the man is Harvard educated, he's got a vision for the country, and I hope he has another term in office, because he can't be elected again, and he'll have nothing to lose in moving the country forward after re-election, and can tell the 'money guys' to **** off. I've seen a lot of money spent here friviously over the years, and it continues and it is very sad with all the needs in education and social programs and one could go on and on. But this very short-term vision that most Dominicans have is auto-destructive. Hopefully by the time you and I are pushing up daiseys (dead), things will slowly move to the 21st century.
Hell, I just donated and planted 500 flamboyan trees to make a flower of beauty tunnel from Sabaneta de Cangrejo to Sosua Abjao that I'll probably never to get to see in full fruition, but I don't care, because one day........
Thank you for your input....I know how aplatenado you are and I appreciate your views. Sorry for the long-windedness.
The "vox populi" have spoken and Leonel might be the "first passenger" on the metro.
The links will take you to more info on the metro. The second link is the map. What is interesting is that both articles mention plans for 2 additional lines to be built later. I must admit that reading about the project can be seductive and I wished that education be a priority but........can't stop the horse in the middle of the race.
Railway Technology - Santo Domingo Metro
UrbanRail.Net > America > Dominican Republic > Santo Domingo Metro
Railway Technology - Santo Domingo Metro
UrbanRail.Net > America > Dominican Republic > Santo Domingo Metro
You got your saying wrong, it should read, "You don't change horses in the middle of a stream".
However, there's another proverb that says, "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make it drink".