Treading against the current; Kinda Liking this Max Puig guy

aegap

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SANTO DOMINGO.- The Dominican Environment minister said yesterday legislators from different parties are involved in a plot to distribute 35.8 million square meters of lands in the National Park of the East protected area.
"At the heart of that court in Hig?ey (land Tribunal?s decision), is a plot by sectors who don?t accept that protected areas are patrimony of the nation and who want those patrimonies for particular interests," said Max Puig in a press conference.
He said a group of legislators elaborates a bill to reform Law 202-04 on Protected Areas to get those zones to individuals, "and on that we say that the areas were created by (ex-president) doctor Joaquin Balaguer and they are not going to perish under the presidential mandate of president (Leonel) Fernandez."
Although the official refused to reveal the names of the legislators who are involved in the alleged plot, he said he?ll reveal them if they persist in an attempt to modify the law.
Puig said the case is under appeal and is confident the decision will be revoked because the "law is on our side."
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George Holmes

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Max Puig is probably slightly more clued up than other environment ministers, but this debate is really missing the point.

The DR has 24% of it's land as protected areas (IUCN categories I and II - the 27% data comes from using categories I to VI), which is the fourth highest IN THE WORLD (after Costa Rica, Greenland and somewhere else which temporarily escapes me - stats are on my other computer). In the last 15 years it has had the highest rate of growth of national parks of any country in the world. To do this, thousands of campesinos have lost their land because of the random whim of a bureaucrat rather than a proper scientific and social study, not getting the compensation that they are legally entitled to. To resolve this problem, various people (independent consultants and people in Secretaria de Medio Ambiente) have been trying to change the legislation of protected areas to take out needlessly protected bits, but that tourism interests have been taking advantage of this, most famously in Bahia de las Aguilas.

The problem is that in the DR, national parks are stuck up everywhere because it is seen as the simplest and easiest way to protect the environment, even though it is the least effective. It is beyond the imagination and intelligence of most people in the Dominican environmental movement, as well as beyond the interests of landowners, to create a more effective solution. The repealing of Balaguer's forestry laws in 1997 did not create swathes of deforestation, but actually increased forest cover (yes, Dominican forests are growing) because it gave peasants and landowners an incentive to look after trees.
 

Hillbilly

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What Puig uncovered would be enough for anyone in government in a "normal" country to be fired and jailed. Of course we all knew that the guy in tourism is a bum, he always has been....and I knew him as a rowdy student....

Hb
 

aegap

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Mar 19, 2005
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What Puig uncovered would be enough for anyone in government in a "normal" country to be fired and jailed. Of course we all knew that the guy in tourism is a bum, he always has been....and I knew him as a rowdy student....

Hb


Actually, sadly no. Take here in the United States where congressmen have made earmarks and writing special provisions that benefit the lobbiest that banckroll their campaigsn an artform. Also, you have business people that were once fighting to tear such policies and programs been put in charge of the againcies and government offices that are set to protect them! All these practices have grown exponentially during the current administration. The most extreme are investigated and a few put in jail, but the burden have been set so high (by those same lawmaker and that same administration!) that the FBI an such have a pretty hard time getting those responsible for even the most extreme cases to serve long jail sentences.
 
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Chip00

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Actually, sadly no. Take here in the United States where congressmen have made earmarks and writing special provisions that benefit the lobbiest that banckroll their campaigsn an artform. Also, you have business people that were once fighting to tear such policies and programs been put in charge of the againcies and government offices that are set to protect them! All these practices have grown exponentially during the current administration. The most extreme are investigated and a few put in jail, but the burden have been set so high (by those same lawmaker and that same administration!) that the FBI an such have a pretty hard time getting those responsible for even the most extreme cases to serve long jail sentences.

Wishful thinking. There has always been corruption and neglegence irrespective of the political parties. There just isn't as much in the US as there are in other places. By the way, anything by Michael Moore cannot be considered a legible source, sorry.
 

cobraboy

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Jul 24, 2004
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Also, you have business people that were once fighting to tear such policies and programs been put in charge of the againcies and government offices that are set to protect them! All these practices have grown exponentially during the current administration. The most extreme are investigated and a few put in jail, but the burden have been set so high (by those same lawmaker and that same administration!) that the FBI an such have a pretty hard time getting those responsible for even the most extreme cases to serve long jail sentences.
I think it's time for some proof of what you say.

I'd be interested in your factual sources. "Everybody knows" doesn't count.
 

aegap

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Mar 19, 2005
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lobin info:
email:robby@hotmail.com
password: maxpuig

Back-room dealing a Capitol trend - The Boston Globe
Congressional conference committees, charged with reconciling differences between House- and Senate-passed versions of the same legislation, have become dramatically more powerful in shaping bills. The panels, made up of a small group of lawmakers appointed by leaders in both parties, added a record 3,407 "pork barrel" projects to appropriations bills for this year's federal budget, items that were never debated or voted on beforehand by the House and Senate and whose congressional patrons are kept secret. This compares to just 47 projects added in conference committee in 1994, the last year of Democratic control.
I'll PM you guys more evidence and specific cases, if you're so incline..
 

aegap

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Mar 19, 2005
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Look at what just sprouted on the internets:

secrets

a similar thing happen with other non-monetary stuff, though those are generally called "special provisions". Also, do you know that, at least till last year, about the only group that can legally insider trade is called the U.S. Congress?
 
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Chip00

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Look at what just sprouted on the internets:

secrets

a similar thing happen with other non-monetary stuff, though those are generally called "special provisions". Also, do you know that, at least till last year, about the only group that can legally insider trade is called the U.S. Congress?

aegap

the link you showed to the report say that the Democratically controlled house just changed the laws to make "pork barrleing" much easier.

Like you failed to notice before in my previous post there is corruption in the US like anywhere and it cuts across political parties. "Pork barrleing" has been around a long time but the fact is the corruption in the US CAN'T wag a finger at the corruption in the DR.

Many no good politicians here in the DR, who are not accountable to anybody including the public nor the press are making US250,000 a year - US100,000 more than a US congressman for what?

How in that world is that justified when the GNP of this country and average wages of the DR aren't even on the same scale as the US? Will or can you even bother to answer this.

BTW this is DR1 not US1 - thanks.
 

aegap

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Mar 19, 2005
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Exactly, they all do it, and very few go to jail! Precisely what my responce to Hillbilly was..

I also wholeheartly agree that the relative negative effect of those doing it in DR are way worst than doing those doing it in the United States. Here in the U.S., we are able to more afford been screwed like this, and there's a stronger activism fighting against it. compared to the U.S., DR is very lacking in activism against this type of stuff, which is why I'm pleasantly surpriced by Max Puig's action.
 

Chirimoya

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Dec 9, 2002
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The Jim?nez - Puig dynamic is more than your traditional Tourist Ministry - Environment Ministry love-hate relationship. One tries to get as much done during his term, while the other tries to control him. The difference here is that private interests have come into the picture, so it becomes personal.

I don't know if Puig is a particularly principled environment minister (it's a recently instituted ministry so not that many to compare him with) but Jim?nez does seem to be a particularly iffy Tourism Minister - appointing tourist developers as Tourism Ministers, construction moguls as Public Works (or Metro) ministers, sugar barons as Foreign Ministers... can anyone spell "conflict of interests"?
 
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Chip00

Guest
Exactly, they all do it, and very few go to jail! Precisely what my responce to Hillbilly was..

I also wholeheartly agree that the relative negative effect of those doing it in DR are way worst than doing those doing it in the United States. Here in the U.S., we are able to more afford been screwed like this, and there's a stronger activism fighting against it. compared to the U.S., DR is very lacking in activism against this type of stuff, which is why I'm pleasantly surpriced by Max Puig's action.

They don't go to jail becasue it isn't against the law still in the US.

Like I've said a dozen times before there is corruption in the US, legal or otherwise but at least there are ways that it is found out and corrected, such as accountable politicians pressured by it's constituents and free press who then push for change.

what do we have in the DR? Most of these sob's aren't accountable to anybody nor care either. there too damn busy trying to figure out how to spend their money or vacations than anything else.


What is the word for "accountability" in Spanish - oh yeah - I forgot - there isn't one - exactly!
 

aegap

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Mar 19, 2005
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They don't go to jail becasue it isn't against the law still in the US.

precisely what I said: They screw us but don't go to jail because it's legal (they wrote the laws, and would have to be the ones to make it illigal!!!).

That said, in this regard, there's a greater percantage of principled, intellegent poleticians fighting for what's right here in the U.S. (ironically mostly Republican) than there's in DR. Hence, my pleasant surprise with this Max Puig guy.
 
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Chip00

Guest
precisely what I said: They screw us but don't go to jail because it's legal (they wrote the laws, and would have to be the ones to make it illigal!!!).

That said, in this regard, there's a greater percantage of principled, intellegent poleticians fighting for what's right here in the U.S. than there's in DR. Hence, my pleasant surprise with this Max Puig guy.

Mine too - maybe we can clone him or something! :)
 

Keith R

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BTW this is DR1 not US1 - thanks.
Exactly! If you guys wish to debate corruption in the US -- or any other country than the DR, for that matter -- take it to email, PM or another board. All further posts in this thread not focussed on the DR will be deleted.

And guys, since this is in fact the Environment forum, let's try not to devolve into a general debate about corruption in the DR, ok? Fine as long as it relates to the environment and the conduct of environmental law and policy, but otherwise take it to Debate forum.

Keith R
Environment Forum moderator :glasses:
 

aegap

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Mar 19, 2005
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Looks like Puig may win this one, ..

SANTO DOMINGO. ? The Dominican Tourism Minister said today he?ll resign his post if the National Hotels and Restaurants Association (ASONAHORES) and the different entities in the tourist sector don?t come to his defense publicly.
Felix Jim?nez read a document under the condition of not taking questions from the press. "I want to announce to the country that if ASONAHORES and the different Associations linked to the private sector of the tourist activity don?t publicly assume their support of my tenure in the front of SECTUR (Tourism Ministry), I will present my formal resignation to my condition as Minister of Tourism as soon as I return from the assumed commitment to attend the Congress of EUROCOTAL, which will be held in Spain in the course of this week.?
 

Mirador

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Apr 15, 2004
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Looks like Puig may win this one, ..

SANTO DOMINGO. ? The Dominican Tourism Minister said today he?ll resign his post if the National Hotels and Restaurants Association (ASONAHORES) and the different entities in the tourist sector don?t come to his defense publicly.
Felix Jim?nez read a document under the condition of not taking questions from the press. "I want to announce to the country that if ASONAHORES and the different Associations linked to the private sector of the tourist activity don?t publicly assume their support of my tenure in the front of SECTUR (Tourism Ministry), I will present my formal resignation to my condition as Minister of Tourism as soon as I return from the assumed commitment to attend the Congress of EUROCOTAL, which will be held in Spain in the course of this week.?

The buzz in the grapevine is that Felucho's own party central committee (Comit? Central del PLD), finally concluded that Felucho is more a liability than an asset as Minister of Tourism. Felucho's recent statement conditioning his job to an ASONAHORES public support statement is just drama. He's a goner!
 

Mirador

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any buzz about who his eventual replacement could be?

There's buzz and buzzing galore, including that there's a castling (as in chess) in the making, where Mr. Maximilian Puig (aka Max) will become Minister of Tourism, while Mr Felix Jimenez (aka Felucho) would become Minister of the Environment. However, I wont bet on it!