Part of the Problem...

C

Chip

Platinum
Jul 25, 2007
16,772
429
0
Santiago
I recently had a chance to eat dinner with a group of alumni from the PUCCM here in Santiago, one of the more prestigous universties in the DR and as usually I started up a conversation about the corruption in this country and what should be done about it.

I was surprised to learn from the group of Dominicans that "social justice/action" is not really discussed at the universtity level. If this is representative of the general case here in the DR how can anyone hope for change when the future of the country aren't challegened to question the status quo?

This isn't the first time I have run into this, in fact I'm quite verbose and open(in general) so I have had the opportunity to speak with many, many Dominicans about this topic(my favorite) here in the DR and 100 times out of 100 they see that there is a problem and recognize that a change is needed but at best are apathetic and unmotivated.

My question is how can anybody expect change when the higher institutions of learning aren't teaching the students anything more than book learning as opposed to teaching one of the the hallmarks of a free society - challenge the status quo if needed and always strive for a better, more relevant solution?
 
S

shadInToronto

On Vacation....
Nov 16, 2003
1,988
0
0
Better to leave social and political changes to professionals (politicians and military and police personnel). I'd say they're smart to keep out of that. Not all 'democatic' states institute the same principles.
 
Y

Yan-Yan

New member
Sep 22, 2003
96
0
0
Interesting, eh?

But not surprising. As a Dominican it took me a while to understand what corruption is, never heard about it in high school, neither in the university.... Learned from life itself... Unfortunately for most Dominicans only when you become a direct victim of corruption is when you get the picture.

Corruption is a way of life in our country, even those of us that criticize it so much, before you know it, are part of it by paying a "busc?n" to sort out our papers, or giving a few pesos to the police when we are caught ignoring a red light...

We need to understand our rights and our obligations to understand how corruption affects the society... There is a lot to be taught not only in universities, but from elementary school... Some of us simply don?t know any better...
 
C

Chip

Platinum
Jul 25, 2007
16,772
429
0
Santiago
shadInToronto said:
Better to leave social and political changes to professionals (politicians and military and police personnel). I'd say they're smart to keep out of that. Not all 'democatic' states institute the same principles.
Click to expand...

This response really cracks me up. Question - who are your future professionals? Besides, why would you think they would want to change the staus quo as they are the main beneficiaries given that they are the ones that live high on the hog while the rest flounder in poverty, geeeeez.

Also, the last comment about democratic principles is kind of off to say the least given that most democratic societies are based on the principle of the government serving the public, not the other way around....
 
Last edited:
C

Chip

Platinum
Jul 25, 2007
16,772
429
0
Santiago
Yan-Yan said:
Interesting, eh?

But not surprising. As a Dominican it took me a while to understand what corruption is, never heard about it in high school, neither in the university.... Learned from life itself... Unfortunately for most Dominicans only when you become a direct victim of corruption is when you get the picture.

Corruption is a way of life in our country, even those of us that criticize it so much, before you know it, are part of it by paying a "busc?n" to sort out our papers, or giving a few pesos to the police when we are caught ignoring a red light...

We need to understand our rights and our obligations to understand how corruption affects the society... There is a lot to be taught not only in universities, but from elementary school... Some of us simply don?t know any better...
Click to expand...

I like this statement because it is truthfully insightful. The next step, what could one do to make things change? Could a individual talk with the owners of private Universities to convince them to send their professors on a year long hiatus to study political science abroad and such in other universities to let them learn a different perspective and more importantly, to impress upon them that the duty to instigate change partly falls on their shoulders?
 
A

A.Hidalgo

Silver
Apr 28, 2006
3,268
98
0
Chip all is not lost. There are organizations like the non governmental not- for- profit FINJUS foundation. It strives to promote transparency in the government especially the judicial branch. A bit of info on the personnel is that Dr. Servio Tulion Casta?os Guzman who is the Executive Vice President, is the brother of Julio Cesar Casta?os Guzman who is the President of the Junta Central Electoral.

FINJUS DEMANDA QUE EL ESTADO SE COMPROMETA CON LA LUCHA ANTICORRUPCION

La Fundaci?n Institucionalidad y Justicia (FINJUS) expresa su preocupaci?n por la gran cantidad de informaciones que en los ?ltimos d?as han saturado los medios de comunicaci?n relativos al predominio de la corrupci?n en nuestra sociedad y se une a quienes demandan que el Estado muestre su voluntad de frenarla, eliminando lo que se ha convertido en un verdadero c?ncer para nuestra democracia y sociedad. ...
Click to expand...

Fundaci?n Institucionalidad y Justicia
 
C

Chip

Platinum
Jul 25, 2007
16,772
429
0
Santiago
Berzin said:
Where are you going to send these professors to study political science? The United States?

After you get through explaining to them what lobbyists do and how effective they are at passing legislation that only benefits the corporations they represent, they will go back to the DR and see no difference between dominican corruption and what passes for a democracy here in the states.;)
Click to expand...

1. At least US politician still doesn't make what a normal Dominican politician makes. Even more vomit inducing is the ave. American citizen salary compared to the ave. Dominican salary.

2. What are the power outages like in the US compared to the DR?

3. How many potholes do you have to avoid on a daily basis in the US?

4. Does raw sewer run into the rivers in the US?

5. Do people dump all types of toxins legally into the watershed in the US without fear of repercussion?

6. Are you paying 15 times more that you should for phone service in the US?

7. Do monopolies and price scavenging flourish unabated in the US?

8. Do you wonder why the people in the DR have much less faith in the police than people do inthe States. Could it be influenced by the fact that the salary of most police is below the poverty line?

9. WHAT in the world does the US have to do with the DR in this thread???!!!! There are other democratic societies too, good greif! Are you are Dominican politician maybe....

Backward thinking like this is what has kept the DR from progressing IMO.
 
Hillbilly

Hillbilly

Moderator
Jan 1, 2002
18,948
514
113
You really can't teach what Chip wants in a university degree program. Especially in a university that is geared to produce professionals in the technical fields such as engineering or Business administration or medicine and so forth.
Where this is perhaps discussed (and it is discussed) is in the law department. There, political science, issues relating to the penal code and the civil code (which both have articles dealing with corruption) are dealt with extensively. Just how revolutionary you want to get sort of depends on the era and the professor.

However, do not expect graduates in any of the other areas--unless they were my students and remember my harangues on corruption--(both questionable variables!!) to be very knowledgeable about things political. Most just want to get along in live, acquire the "things" they feel are necessary for "success" and stay as far away from government as possible--unless they are politically active (which your people were not) and then they are blind to any comments that reflect poorly on Their Party...

My diatribe for tonight.

HB
 
B

BushBaby

Silver
Jan 1, 2002
3,829
329
0
79
www.casabush.org
Chip said:
1. At least US politician still doesn't make what a normal Dominican politician makes. Even more vomit inducing is the ave. American citizen salary compared to the ave. Dominican salary.

2. What are the power outages like in the US compared to the DR?

3. How many potholes do you have to avoid on a daily basis in the US?

4. Does raw sewer run into the rivers in the US?

5. Do people dump all types of toxins legally into the watershed in the US without fear of repercussion?

6. Are you paying 15 times more that you should for phone service in the US?

7. Do monopolies and price scavenging flourish unabated in the US?

8. Do you wonder why the people in the DR have much less faith in the police than people do inthe States. Could it be influenced by the fact that the salary of most police is below the poverty line?

9. WHAT in the world does the US have to do with the DR in this thread???!!!! There are other democratic societies too, good greif! Are you are Dominican politician maybe....

Backward thinking like this is what has kept the DR from progressing IMO.
Click to expand...

Chip,
Please go & have a cool drink &/or a cold shower. Then come back refreshed & respond without all the chest bashing antics. You are a nice guy, you have a good brain & your pontification here does not do you the credit you deserve. Your 'list' above is just a red herring to your main theme - corruption. Don't get side tracked so easily with chest thumping! :cheeky: ;)

That said, I am disgusted to see the "lie back & think of England dear" attitude that prevails in the UK right now. Banning smoking in an area where all present are HAPPY to be smoking is a intrusion on personal liberties. The town councils & political system in the UK supports corruption in the same way that it does here in the DR AND in the US of A. If you disagree with that comment Chip, you destroy ALL credibility in your argument on this thread.

Corruption is not only acceptable here in the DR, under present conditions 'It Is A RIGHT'. The only way of attacking corruption is from The TOP down (not vice versa) & to do this you have to have a form of Dictatorship - or a VERY strong leader who is backed by 90% of the country!! Is it time for a Coalition Government as is being muted in certain circles?? Maybe.

I agree that corruption in the DR wastes a lot of money here in the DR, but no more than it does in the US or Britain Or European community! The only difference here is that it is much more open & traceable. The Dominicans KNOW it happens, they see the waste & try to get on with their lives. In the UK & US, people believe the spins & (because they don't WANT to see the corruption) accept the word of their Governments because "We elected them - they would not lie to us ......"

BS sir!! ~ Grahame.
 
C

Chris

Gold
Oct 21, 2002
7,951
28
0
www.caribbetech.com
Chip said:
I like this statement because it is truthfully insightful. The next step, what could one do to make things change? Could a individual talk with the owners of private Universities to convince them to send their professors on a year long hiatus to study political science abroad and such in other universities to let them learn a different perspective and more importantly, to impress upon them that the duty to instigate change partly falls on their shoulders?
Click to expand...

I don't understand why the duty to change things falls on the shoulders of the professors? Perhaps HB can tell us in more detail, but each professor of note that I met had plenty experience from other countries.

Corruption is endemic and systemic in the DR and in many other countries. It surely lies squarely on the shoulders of government to set the tone here and legalize it out of existence and enforce it out of existence? I really do not get the connection with Universities.
 
Squat

Squat

Tropical geek in Las Terrenas
Jan 1, 2002
2,239
168
63
BushBaby said:
Corruption is not only acceptable here in the DR, under present conditions 'It Is A RIGHT'.
Click to expand...
Corruption runs into dominican blood alongside with merengue, dominos and "beisbol" ;)

BushBaby said:
The only way of attacking corruption is from The TOP down (not vice versa) & to do this you have to have a form of Dictatorship - or a VERY strong leader who is backed by 90% of the country!!
Click to expand...
Bring "El Jefe" back !!! (or vote for "La Mano Dura" at the next election !)

BushBaby said:
I agree that corruption in the DR wastes a lot of money here in the DR, but no more than it does in the US or Britain Or European community! The only difference here is that it is much more open & traceable. The Dominicans KNOW it happens, they see the waste & try to get on with their lives. In the UK & US, people believe the spins & (because they don't WANT to see the corruption) accept the word of their Governments because "We elected them - they would not lie to us ......"
Click to expand...
Wise words... But...
-"Can you honestly visualize any group of Dominicans without corruption ??? No way, that would be total science fiction !!! I don't agree with the fact that we are all corrupted, may it be in Europe, the US or down here... My personal observation is that there's way more corruption here. It is all "in your face", and that is the dream of most folks ! "Pegarse", "conseguir un puesto"... Just take a look at the paychecks of those thieves sitting as deputies & senators versus regular folks...
 
P

pelaut

Bronze
Aug 5, 2007
1,089
33
48
www.ThornlessPath.com
1. Civics should be taught in primary and secondary school. It isn't.
2. Studies have long demonstrated that salaries are inhibitors of performance, not incentives. Paying more doesn't make a bureaucrat out of a burro-rat.
3. Some jobs in some societies pay commissions, others in others pay bribes.
4. All cultures are not equal, cannot be transliterated. Ethics inherited from an 800 year caliphate or a 1000 year dynasty change slowly, if they merit change at all.
 
C

Chip

Platinum
Jul 25, 2007
16,772
429
0
Santiago
My point is not to eradicate corruption here in the DR as everybody knows it is impossible to do that anywhere in the world.

However, what I don't understand is that the Dominican people continually vote for politicians here in the DR who are making more many US politicians when:

a. This is a poor country that really can't afford to waste it's money.
b. There is no justification for such enormous salaries given the low cost of living.

Furthermore, the govenment doesn't even have control of it's Customs.

When it is all added up we are taking about millions wasted on a monthly basis that really doesn't have to be wasted. Also, I really don't understand the argument that becasue there is corruption in the US that somehow means that this waste here in the DR is ok. I applaud and support people, wherever they may be, that fight corruption.

Also, everytime I talk about change here in the DR people throw back into my face that there are problems in the US. Well, I'm aware of that but what does that have to do with the DR?

BTW, As far as the government robbing the people in the US I disagree wholeheartedly. I made US65k in the US and paid Federal taxes of like US2700 and no state taxes and we had a very nice house, car, etc and we really did not want for much. One can pull up on the web the salary of the mayor of Orlando and Tampa making US135k a year. What are the no brain politicians making here in the DR in a much lower cost economy? Upwards of US300k a year? How is that justifiable?

Furthermore, I was a licensed professional engineer in the State of Florida and I made about half of the salary of the Orlando mayor, yet what does a typical run of the mill engineer here in the DR make? Well from my research, if they aren't "well connected" to the gov't., they would be making in the range of US12k to US24k a year. So why then should a politician in the DR make more than 10 times as much as another professional when in the US they maybe make twice as much. Also, my salary was on the low side - there are many engineers making close to US100k a year in Florida so there really is a lot less of a difference.

Therefore, this money could be put to good use for the community and as long as I have a voice and a mind to complain I will do it. Just because it it has been like this for a long time is not a good excuse for me.

Sincerely/ without contempt to anybody(w/exception of the politicians)

Chip
 
S

shadInToronto

On Vacation....
Nov 16, 2003
1,988
0
0
Chip said:
... Just because it it has been like this for a long time is not a good excuse for me.
Click to expand...
Quite admirable to aspire for a just society, but you need people with similar aspirations. As a test, go to any university campus in the DR and try to organize a demonstration against corrupt government officials and politicians - good luck, amigo.

You should be aware that corruption exists in the good ol' US of A ... I cite one case recently where a congressman 'rammed' through legislation to protect the pharmaceutical industry then went to work for the drug lobby, Check here. Corrput politicians are called lobbyists in the good ol' US of A.
 
F

Funnyyale26

Bronze
Dec 15, 2006
519
4
0
I thought that the reason why dominicans university are not promoting awareness about the problems affecting society was because after Balaguer took power in the 1960's, a lot of progressive thinking professors and students were killed and tortured and it discouraged many to organize public demonstrations, strikes, etc and that is why there is so much apathy in regards to politics.

I hate it whenever my family members come from the DR and they tell me "ohh things are bad but people still get by and know how to have fun."
 
A

AnnaC

Gold
Jan 2, 2002
16,050
418
83
Chip, it was said that one of the reasons you left dr1 as chip00 was because of the American bashing that goes on but yet you seem to open the flood gates everytime and are inviting it to happen.

Sorry just what I see ;)
 
C

Chris

Gold
Oct 21, 2002
7,951
28
0
www.caribbetech.com
Part of the problem ... is that there is just about zero Dominican Republic on this thread. I'm with Anna on this one. She is just more patient than I :laugh:.
 
L

laurapasinifan

Silver
Sep 19, 2005
4,632
91
48
well in THEORY chipoooo........you are asking why that certain segment of society that has the money to go onto to higher education in an eefort to obtain the lofty jobs and status that are available to those who come from enough money to afford those same higher education schools...especially the highest of them!........ to.....turn their back on the very system that they will benfit from after they get those cushy jobs and start making the bigger bucks!!!!

its the people with high paying jobs that get STATUS and benefit from the corruption.... they buy the satisfying life style that the poor complain about..... they get electricity, they have their huge cars and dont get arrested for the petty and even worse crimes or "mis-steps" so to speak.

imagine the big lawyers son, the guy with tons of sonnections going to a rally to complain about corruption that might just unravels dads vacation house plans!!!!!!!!!!!


that is just a THEORY..chipooo

PS DISCLAIMER: no poor people were injured in the making of this opinion!!! ha ha ha

bob
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom