Difficult grammar concepts in Spanish

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Marianopolita

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Instead of making an official poll because the options would then become more limited, in your opinion what are the most difficult grammatical aspects about Spanish? I think it would be interesting to read some of the responses because I am sure there will be some common themes as well as some that are problematic for the individual poster. No doubt Spanish grammar is difficult however, there are some really challenging concepts to grasp. Your response can be based on personal experience or based on observations of other speakers' difficulties.

In my experience some of the more difficult grammar concepts include:

1/ The subjunctive- knowing when and when not to use it.

2/ Indirect and direct object pronouns- proper usage of lo vs. le- some usage is regional which adds to the difficulty.

3/ correct spelling with certain letters- /b/ vs. /v/, /g/ vs. /j/, /s/ vs. /z/- there are plenty of examples on DR1 of incorrect spelling.

4/ Pronominal verbs- specifically those that do not have a reflexive meaning, understanding how to use the form with 'se' correctly.

5/ Verb conjugation and irregular verbs

6/ por y para, ser y estar- understanding correct usage


... there are more but these ones come to mind right away.


-LDG.
 
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snowflake42

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grammer concepts

Well Lesley D, As I am still working on T?mate tiempo it may be a while before I can respond to this new question;). You are such a taskmaster!!!!!!!
 

Sholly24

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subjunctive most likely

Lesley,
I would say that for most english speakers learning spanish, the subjunctive would be the most difficult just so because we do not really have such in english.

One of the areas that I have found interesting about the subjunctive, is the use of 'antes de que' and 'despues de que' in the preterit tense. Most books (including native spanish speakers) will say that the 'antes de que' always carries the subjunctive in the preterit tense, while 'despues de que' may/may not carry the subjunctive in the preterit. However someone (a native speaker well learned in both english and spanish) told me that 'antes de que' may/may not carry the subjunctive in the preterit just as in 'despues de que' and that it depends on the point of reference (time frame) with which the speaker is trying to convey the comments.

The first opinion seems to be what is more common (in spanish language websites etc) but I seem to agree with the second opinion because it makes so much more sense, even though it seems to go against the general grain.

What do you think?

Sholly
 

jrhartley

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i find all the little linking words dificult since they are in a different order to english....but if i was learning english i would find pronunciaciones the worst since vowls change so much for every word - I thank you
 

Marianopolita

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Dec 26, 2003
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Responding-

Interesting replies thus far and I would like this thread to be just to list the concepts rather than discuss each one in particular. To reply to all will be difficult for me time wise. If you really have a topic of interest out from reading this thread start a new one or add your question to an existing one that covers the same grammar point. Thanks.

Well Lesley D, As I am still working on T?mate tiempo it may be a while before I can respond to this new question;). You are such a taskmaster!!!!!!!

Take your time. You don't have to reply, you can just read the thread. There's already plenty of diversity in the responses. Taskmaster, no, not at all. While I have time I am just trying to keep the forum interesting. Believe me when I don't have time I don't post.

...One of the areas that I have found interesting about the subjunctive, is the use of 'antes de que' and 'despues de que' in the preterit tense. Most books (including native spanish speakers) will say that the 'antes de que' always carries the subjunctive in the preterit tense, while 'despues de que' may/may not carry the subjunctive in the preterit. However someone (a native speaker well learned in both english and spanish) told me that 'antes de que' may/may not carry the subjunctive in the preterit just as in 'despues de que' and that it depends on the point of reference (time frame) with which the speaker is trying to convey the comments.

The first opinion seems to be what is more common (in spanish language websites etc) but I seem to agree with the second opinion because it makes so much more sense, even though it seems to go against the general grain.

What do you think?

Sholly


Sholly, I will be brief because I don't think the correct usage of antes de que is even debatable. It's not a question of opinion but rather a grammar rule that has not changed. As well, I have never heard speakers err with correct usage. Antes de que requires the subjunctive. Antes de que venga, future tense, antes de que viniera, referring to that same future event in the past. The meaning 'antes de que' is always future to the action that's why the subjunctive is required. This concept can't be any more logical. Can you provide examples in the written or spoken language other than this person's 'opinion' to demonstrate otherwise? Rule of thumb is the grammar rules should be your guide. The spoken language is where the flaws lie.

The subjunctive does exist in English and is used but by a small percentage of speakers and the concept is identical to the usage in all of the Romance languages. It has almost fallen out use but not 100%.

i find all the little linking words dificult since they are in a different order to english....but if i was learning english i would find pronunciaciones the worst since vowls change so much for every word - I thank you

Good point and the best solution for this is reading. Start at a junior level and progress slowly at your own pace.

From your list, number 4 is the most difficult for me to understand. However, I have more difficulty in understanding the use of the verb gustar.

For me it is difficult to grasp that an object can like the person (example: me gusta el mueble). But what is even more difficult for me to understand is how to say I like you, you like me, he likes her, she likes him, they like us, we like them, we like it, etc. When yo, tu, el, ella, ellos, etc are added to the translations it gets even more confusing for me.

Also, when the above statements are questions are they said in the same way with just using a different intonation?

Any suggestions on helping to understand this verb would be appreciated.

Thanks

Your logic is a bit off IMO, which could be a part of the problem in understanding how to use the verb 'gustar'. You stated: 'For me it is difficult to grasp that an object can like the person', I think it would be easier for you if you state 'an object is pleasing to you' which you will find in the majority of grammar books.

There are a handful of verbs in Spanish that function like gustar, therefore, I recommend understanding how to use the forms correctly because the logic will apply to other verbs. For example, me interesan los libros, no me importa, me encanta dibujar etc.

Examples specific to your question & yes intonation allows for the question to be formed:

Te gusta el carro - You like the car// ?Te gusta el carro?- Do you like the car?

Le gusta la casa- S/he likes the house//- ?Le gusta la casa?- Does s/he like the house?

My suggestion is practicing on your own and have a competent person correct the sentences. Translate a variety of sentences from English to Spanish with gustar and you will see it will get easier. Keep doing it until you have grasped the concept. It may take a long time but it will be worth it in the end.

This link should help as well, I am pro grammar books. There are plenty of good ones on the market.

Spanish Language - Search Results


-LDG.
 
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2LeftFeet

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Llevar vs Traer.

No matter how many times I go over it I still get it wrong. The concept eludes me. If you here but they are there but the object is there.... and you are bringing it here... but there is a full moon and it's raining... of course you would use traer....naturally.
but... only if it's a Monday. If it's a Friday.... llevar.
 

Sholly24

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Mar 5, 2006
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Sholly, I will be brief because I don't think the correct usage of antes de que is even debatable. It's not a question of opinion but rather a grammar rule that has not changed. As well, I have never heard speakers err with correct usage. Antes de que requires the subjunctive. Antes de que venga, future tense, antes de que viniera, referring to that same future event in the past. The meaning 'antes de que' is always future to the action that's why the subjunctive is required. This concept can't be any more logical. Can you provide examples in the written or spoken language other than this person's 'opinion' to demonstrate otherwise? Rule of thumb is the grammar rules should be your guide. The spoken language is where the flaws lie.

-LDG.

The comments made by this person related only to the use of 'antes de que' in the preterit (past) tense.



i.e (She finished her task before the teacher arrived)
Ella termin? su tarea antes de que el profesor llegara
Ella termin? su tarea antes de que el profesor lleg?

What I have been told is that the use of lleg? and llegara are both correct and the difference depends on the time frame with which the speaker is trying to convey his/her thoughts. Using llegara implies that the speaker is not trying to focus on the arrival of the teacher as a finished activity in the past while the use of lleg? implies that the speaker is conveying the arrival of the teacher as a finished activity in the past with a clear certainty as to when the teacher arrived.

Just someone's opinion and not mine but this person is actually mexican and is a spanish professor here in the US in a university and also holds a masters degree in english. Of course, this does not mean that he can't be wrong.

What he has said is that atimes even the use of the subjunctive lends itself to certain adjustments based on the evidence/information that the speaker has at the time of speaking or based on the impression that the speaker is trying to convey.

Sholly
 

fmichaelb

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I'm new here, somebody mentioned this place and I thought I'd take a look. The poster 'newuser' had a very common confusion about the word 'gustar' and I think Lesley D gave an excellent explanation. The word does not mean 'like', it means 'please', so, 'Me gusta la casa.' means 'The house pleases me.', NOT 'The house likes me.' Spanish does not have a word that directly translates to 'like' (well, at least not in this context, they do have a word for 'similar'). As for the question about using subjective 'antes de que', I'll agree with her again, the anticipated action has not happened YET, and therefore might actually NOT happen at all (even if you want it to, even if they promised to, etc.)...therefore, since it is not a 'sure thing', use subjective.
 

M.A.R.

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Feb 18, 2006
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Llevar vs Traer.

No matter how many times I go over it I still get it wrong. The concept eludes me. If you here but they are there but the object is there.... and you are bringing it here... but there is a full moon and it's raining... of course you would use traer....naturally.
but... only if it's a Monday. If it's a Friday.... llevar.

arghghg i don't like grammar because i never studied it properly.

but 2leftfee are you confusing ALLI AND ALLA?
 

2LeftFeet

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No, what I am talking about is bringing/carrying something somewhere. I am going to bring my friend a pair of shoes. If we are both at the same place you use XXXXX but if we are at different places or if the shoes are here and I am there you useXXXX.....

To me it's very complicated. As in.... if it's raining, and there is a full moon on Monday you use traer but if it's snowing on a Friday you definitely use llevar.

I don't think I will ever get it. I ALWAYS use the wrong one. I just use llevar and get corrected accordingly.

I don't understand the subtle nuance.
 

Marianopolita

Former Spanish forum Mod 2010-2021
Dec 26, 2003
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Responding- next sequence of posts

....
What I have been told is that the use of lleg? and llegara are both correct and the difference depends on the time frame with which the speaker is trying to convey his/her thoughts. Using llegara implies that the speaker is not trying to focus on the arrival of the teacher as a finished activity in the past while the use of lleg? implies that the speaker is conveying the arrival of the teacher as a
  1. finished activity in the past with a clear certainty as to when the teacher arrived.


  1. Sholly, you asked for my opinion and I will state it again in brief, 'antes de que' requires the subjunctive. I have never heard it used or seen it written with the indicative mood. The time frame has an emphasis on an action in the future. Although the prof you refer to provided an explanation it seems like much has to be bent and explained to substitute the subjunctive which is the grammar rule in order to use the indicative. Some grammar rules don't have any flexibility at all. As well, it just does not sound grammatically correct, at least not to me. I also find it interesting that I have never seen the usage in writing anywhere and believe me I read a lot out of necessity and pleasure.

    IMO, this a good example of how grammatical regionalisms begin. I think 'llegara' is the correct grammatical and universal way in the examples you provided.


    Llevar vs Traer.

    No matter how many times I go over it I still get it wrong. The concept eludes me. If you here but they are there but the object is there.... and you are bringing it here... but there is a full moon and it's raining... of course you would use traer....naturally.
    but... only if it's a Monday. If it's a Friday.... llevar.


    Unfortunately, we can't draw diagrams in our posts. The visual demonstration would help to clarify the usage.

    Traer= to bring

    llevar= to take


    Casa <--------- Juan trae sus libros a casa <---------- Juan

    -traer goes in the direction indicated above . The target is the house 'casa', observe the location.


    Juan (en la casa) ------------> Juan lleva los regalos a su hermana --------------> hermana

    - llevar goes in the direction indicated above. The target is his sister 'hermana' observe her position.


    Other verbs that cause confusion are saber and conocer, o?r and escuchar, pedir and preguntar. Grammar books always dedicate a section to these types of verbs.

    In English, the concept regarding traer/ llevar is the same BUT listen to the way people speak. Many times these two words are used incorrectly, which is causing a problem for you now in Spanish.

    We had a thread discussion on llevar vs traer in 2005. My explanation is still the same. Please have a look. Read it as much as necessary to understand the concept.

    http://www.dr1.com/forums/spanish-101/40398-llevar-vs-traer.html


    I'm new here, somebody mentioned this place and I thought I'd take a look. The poster 'newuser' had a very common confusion about the word 'gustar' and I think Lesley D gave an excellent explanation. The word does not mean 'like', it means 'please', so, 'Me gusta la casa.' means 'The house pleases me.', NOT 'The house likes me.' Spanish does not have a word that directly translates to 'like' (well, at least not in this context, they do have a word for 'similar'). As for the question about using subjective 'antes de que', I'll agree with her again, the anticipated action has not happened YET, and therefore might actually NOT happen at all (even if you want it to, even if they promised to, etc.)...therefore, since it is not a 'sure thing', use subjective.

    Thanks for the back up comments. You provided good details as well.


    -LDG.
 

Sholly24

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Mar 5, 2006
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No, what I am talking about is bringing/carrying something somewhere. I am going to bring my friend a pair of shoes. If we are both at the same place you use XXXXX but if we are at different places or if the shoes are here and I am there you useXXXX.....

To me it's very complicated. As in.... if it's raining, and there is a full moon on Monday you use traer but if it's snowing on a Friday you definitely use llevar.

I don't think I will ever get it. I ALWAYS use the wrong one. I just use llevar and get corrected accordingly.

I don't understand the subtle nuance.

Llevar means to take (to) while traer means to bring (to). The confusion usually lies in the manner in which spanish people use the english equivalent. In english, we would say I will bring you the bag tomorrow when we are speaking to someone who is away from us (like on the phone) while in spanish, the equivalent will be ' I will take the bag to you tomorrow'. This is because the destination of the object is away from where we are speaking.

Assuming that the person that you are speaking with is in front of you (like in his house) and you will be bringing the object to that same place (in his house), then you will use traer. Same destination

Assuming that the person you are speaking with is in front of you (like in his house) but you will be taking it to him at a different place( other than his house/place of discussion), you will use llevar. Different destination.

However if someone is bringing something to you, you will always use traer whether you are speaking from where he will be bringing the object to or whether he will be bringing it to you at a different place.


It is similar to the use of venir (come) and ir (go). In english we would tell someone that 'I will come to your house tomorrow' while talking to them on the phone while in spanish the equivalent will be ' I will go to your house tomorrow'. This is because the destination is away from where we are speaking.


I hope that helped a bit.

Sholly
 

2LeftFeet

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I find this helpful hint on Itunes today. Unfortunately, the trick won't work the same way in Spanish.

Take there------llevar

Bring here----- traer
 

2LeftFeet

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Hi everyone! It's been pointed out to me that my post isn't as clear as I had hoped it would have been so I am going to be more explicit. It doesn't help that for some unknown reason traer is red??!! I don't know why or how that happend.

You can remember Take because it is going some place as in take there..... Take There has 2 T ... Take There

Bring Here is just bring here.

In a perfect world, it would work out perfectly. Unfortunately, traer, although it begins with a T, means to bring so, the trick does not work 100% in Spanish. That would be too easy.

I hope this clarifies my confusing post.

2LF
 
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