Haiti and Dominican Republic related topics and issues

If each part do what must to do, toguether but not mixed, I think yes we could be 2 great nations in one island.

Not for at least 30 years. Haiti is actually a 'failed state' will little hope of any future not bartered and cared for by the rich nations of the world and the Dom. Republic. The DR's #2 trading partner is Haiti with a very favorable BOT.
However, Haiti is without schools for 95% of the population. Without effective health care for a similar number. Withour forests in the same proportion. And, worst of all, without a effective government, unless backed by United Nations troops.
The problems in Haiti are staggering. They need a school system the size of NYC right this moment. They need health care facilities the size of the Bronx and Brooklyn, right now. They need electricity, water, sanitation the size of Rhode Island.

I wonder where the $8 billion that was pledged is, was or has gone to??? It has not made a dent, as far as can been seen.

While this might seem unfair, it is reasonably factual, it is reality. If you go into the whys and wherefores, you only find a series of governments that were predatory, and I have yet to find a truly "good" government in the 206 year history of the country.

So:
1) Massive international help to
a-train teachers
b-build schools
c-build hospitals and equip them and man them for 6 years
d-launch a Cuban-style program of "assembly line doctors" , like Special Forces medics.
e-massive, mechanized reforestation projects over the entire country
f-huge infrastructure projects (semi-make work for people) such as roads, canals, aqueducts
g-top level instruction in the process of governance from officials in Canada and France, with maybe some velvet covered iron fists behind the scenes.

The list could go on, but that would be a good way to spend the $8 billion...IMHO

Of course, a lot of the same could be applied to the DR, but with a big head start. What we need here is a social revolution, not an eraser and clean blackboard every election cycle. "I'll forget what you did and you forget what I am going to do...."

Yes, Virginia, I do believe in Santa Clause. Unfortunately, I also think we could make good use of Castro's }pared?n{ as a way to clean up a lot of things around here.

Hummm, I see the old curmudgeon is out and about..

Oh well,

HB

Unfortunatly, this may be impossible at the moment. Dominican Republic's GDP pc is a staggaring $8,300, Haiti's is $1,300. More importantly you need a new generation of tolerating politicians and civilians. Most Dominicans have a prejudice tendency towards Haitians. Little do they know that thanks to the Hatian stir, slaves found courage to stand up. Anyway, this would be wonderful, but both countries would just be a burden to each other, due to the amount of poverty and lack of considerate politicians. Maybe two generations from now, we may work together. Great idea though!!!

I could not agree more, I myself am a proud lefty. We need a supporting social revolution. Many would benefit from a SR, even if the politician in power turns out to be corrupt thief, if he/she is moved by socilalist ideologies, many poor individuals would have a great benefit...it's time we stop hunger!

Willowtears said:

I could not agree more, I myself am a proud lefty. We need a supporting social revolution. Many would benefit from a SR, even if the politician in power turns out to be corrupt thief, if he/she is moved by socilalist ideologies, many poor individuals would have a great benefit...it's time we stop hunger!

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Yes, that's all we need here in the DR, another China, Russia, Cuba or Venezuela!!!

Only a few problems will arise, how to murder 20% of the population(dissenters) a la China and the USSR without the rest of the world noticing??? And for the ones that have the "hope" of being indocrinated, don't you think the world will notice these large concentration camps (a la google maps)???

The good thing is that the Dominican politicians are so expectant of corruption, it will be easy to transfer to a socialist state where everyone is dizque equal, hehe.

Maybe you are talking about the milder version of scoailsim, like in Cuba. There are certainly aren't anyone over there going hungry - because they all went to Miami! Hey Venezuela isn't far away either.

Don't you just love the morality of it all?????

Willow Tears said:

I could not agree more, I myself am a proud lefty. We need a supporting social revolution. Many would benefit from a SR, even if the politician in power turns out to be corrupt thief, if he/she is moved by socialist ideologies, many poor individuals would have a great benefit...it's time we stop hunger!

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As they have benefited in Cuba and Venezuela - NOT. Did you read what you posted; that it is ok to have a thief in power, as long as he's a leftist thief! There is more hunger generally in socialist countries than capitalist countries. Name as socialist country where the poor are truly better off and don't say Cuba- been there- know better.

Willow Tears said:

I could not agree more, I myself am a proud lefty. We need a supporting social revolution. Many would benefit from a SR, even if the politician in power turns out to be corrupt thief, if he/she is moved by socialist ideologies, many poor individuals would have a great benefit...it's time we stop hunger!

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As they have benefited in Cuba and Venezuela - NOT. Did you read what you posted; that it is ok to have a thief in power, as long as he's a leftist thief! There is more hunger generally in socialist countries than capitalist countries. Name as socialist country where the poor are truly better off and don't say Cuba- been there- know better. Haiti needs a benevolent dictator.

If anybody things the DR and Haiti will be "one country" in the near present or at any time in the future they have obviously never been to either country nor likely that they have ever even talked to a Dominican or Haitan.

If you think they still will "merge" at some point explain to me why the Palestinian and Jews have not merged after 1500 years???

Not only that, while Dominicans are inherrently suspicious of their Haitian neighbors, Haitans too are suspicious of Dominicans. Throw in the language and cultural difference and you can bet on these two countries being separate until the second coming.

As far as them working "together", Haiti needs to fix it's problems first and it will then naturally attract Dominican investment, etc. Then this is when attitudes will change here in the DR.

Let's kkep on track: Two countries, separate, working together, is the idea of the OP as I understood it. Nothing to do with "merging"...


Social revolution is not socialism. It is society rising up and tearing apart the corrupt politician and others that have so corrupted this paradise. Socialism sucks, at least as far as I have seen. Animal Farm had it pretty right...

Until the wealthy nations of the world come up with the cash, Haiti will be on life support. Small efforts are going on, I know this. But we are talking about real nation building in a place where "freedom" means "I don't have to work if I don't want to."

I have to say that I have no idea what Willowtears was talking about when he said that "thanks to the Hatian (sic) stir the slaves rose up...."

This is neither on point or historically accurate. In fact, I can't make any sense of it.

I will stand by my 'failed state' hypothesis until someone can show me different.

HB

bob saunders said:

As they have benefited in Cuba and Venezuela - NOT. Did you read what you posted; that it is ok to have a thief in power, as long as he's a leftist thief! There is more hunger generally in socialist countries than capitalist countries. Name as socialist country where the poor are truly better off and don't say Cuba- been there- know better. Haiti needs a benevolent dictator.

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Well Bob, in case you have not "heard" this socialist move in Venezuela and Cuba has benefit the POOR, of course not the rich. Both countries have a better Education and Health Care system in place, in which the Dominican Republic can only dream off. And yes, I did read what I wrote and I much rather have a GREEDY/THIEF moved by his Marxist Ideologies than a GREEDY THIEF moved by money and power...either way Power Corrupts.

P.S. I did not mention Communism

Hillbilly said:

Let's kkep on track: Two countries, separate, working together, is the idea of the OP as I understood it. Nothing to do with "merging"...


Social revolution is not socialism. It is society rising up and tearing apart the corrupt politician and others that have so corrupted this paradise. Socialism sucks, at least as far as I have seen. Animal Farm had it pretty right...

Until the wealthy nations of the world come up with the cash, Haiti will be on life support. Small efforts are going on, I know this. But we are talking about real nation building in a place where "freedom" means "I don't have to work if I don't want to."

I have to say that I have no idea what Willowtears was talking about when he said that "thanks to the Hatian (sic) stir the slaves rose up...."

This is neither on point or historically accurate. In fact, I can't make any sense of it.

I will stand by my 'failed state' hypothesis until someone can show me different.

HB

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Well, the Haitians were only the ones to start the Slavery Revolution from 1791-1804, leading to the rise of OTHER revolutionary stirs. And, I do take back that fact that you did not say Socialism, a mishap on my part, but I do say Socialism and I do understand that socialism has not work for many of the people, like PRC and India, however these countries are on the list of World Economic Potentials. Although, these countries still dance in poverty, these political system seems to be helping them to the economic rise. Do you see the bigger picture? can you see these countries economic potential within the next 20 years? (NOT NOW) Can you ever see Dominican Republic as world economic potential, while we have in place a Democracy system that is not working for us? Stealing and not sharing? Steal and share, that works for me. Think OUTSIDE the Box!

Willowtears said:

... I much rather have a GREEDY/THIEF moved by his Marxist Ideologies than a GREEDY THIEF moved by money and power...either way Power Corrupts.

P.S. I did not mention Communism

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Marxist ideals without communism???? Have they the Marxists finally got "it" right???

At what cost in loss of human lives and freedom???

Hiding behind the ideology of Marxism is a person who either knows not what Marxism is all about or they really do and could care less about what people want and think they are to be governed forcibly and need to be told what to do. While it is certainly questionable that less people will go hungry in a socialist system it is certain many will "disappear" and otherwise be harassed, persecuted and jailed a la Cuba.

Dissidents

I thought socialists were the "real" humanists??? You guys ain't nothing but elitists who don't really care about people because you propose solutions to which you would never subject yourselves too.

Hillbilly said:

Let's kkep on track: Two countries, separate, working together, is the idea of the OP as I understood it. Nothing to do with "merging"...

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Give it a few more posts...

Chip said:

Marxist ideals without communism???? Have they the Marxists finally got "it" right???

At what cost in loss of human lives and freedom???

Hiding behind the ideology of Marxism is a person who either knows not what Marxism is all about or they really do and could care less about what people want and think they are to be governed forcibly and need to be told what to do. While it is certainly questionable that less people will go hungry in a socialist system it is certain many will "disappear" and otherwise be harassed, persecuted and jailed a la Cuba.

Dissidents

I thought socialists were the "real" humanists??? You guys ain't nothing but elitists who don't really care about people because you propose solutions to which you would never subject yourselves too.

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I'm sorry, but I'm offended by this statement. You are wrong, Socialism leads to Communism, but I can certainly believe that if we are to keep a Socialist state, it may benefit the POOR. I'm not considering the RICH. I mean how much does a person to need to live. Believing in a Socialist state does not take your freedom. Many people are blind-sided by all the corruption and massacring dictators have done. I'm not speaking of individuals, I'm speaking of the idea, I'm very much the humanist

Haitians with their reverse apartheid system and predatory elites will not and cannot progress, and obviously without being a UN satrapy the Haitian Republic cannot stand. Bill Clinton is the best thing that has happened to the Haitian revolution since it's inception. In the short run Haiti is a drag, in the long run, who knows?

Haitians need to be brought out of the stone ages. Dominican Republic is doing all it can and more too assist Haiti (private investment and the like, true unfettered capitalism baby, it works) just look at the border and all the trucks there, look at all the Haitians who work and live in DR, where do the send their money too? The UK ambassador has just confessed to the assistance the Dominican Republic is providing to Haiti as much as today's paper recently, (Listin, read it). Individuals and entities who lambast Dominicans as a whole, trying to place the origins of Haiti's problems on the DR are in a serious need of a reality check and are not helping to fix the problem IMHO.

Haiti will rise and finally become a country one day, but for now, it is just as Juan Bosch stated "un conglomerado humano", 'a human conglomeration'.

My rant ends.

Willowtears said:

Well, the Haitians were only the ones to start the Slavery Revolution from 1791-1804, leading to the rise of OTHER revolutionary stirs. And, I do take back that fact that you did not say Socialism, a mishap on my part, but I do say Socialism and I do understand that socialism has not work for many of the people, like PRC and India, however these countries are on the list of World Economic Potentials. Although, these countries still dance in poverty, these political system seems to be helping them to the economic rise.

Do you the see the bigger picture? can you see these countries economic potential within the next 20 years? (NOT NOW) Can you ever see Dominican Republic as world economic potential, while we have in place a Capitalist system that is not working for us? Stealing and not sharing? Steal and share, that works for me. Think OUTSIDE the Box!

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Perhaps in a very far future we will have some sort of real economic system put in place in the Dominican Republic

Willow Tears said:

Well Bob, in case you have not "heard" this socialist move in Venezuela and Cuba has benefit the POOR, of course not the rich. Both countries have a better Education and Health Care system in place, in which the Dominican Republic can only dream off. And yes, I did read what I wrote and I much rather have a GREEDY/THIEF moved by his Marxist Ideologies than a GREEDY THIEF moved by money and power...either way Power Corrupts.

P.S. I did not mention Communism

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The Cuban education system is better than the DRs, then again Cuba had the highest literacy rate in the Americas before Castro. I've seen firsthand the Cuban Medical system, and there are plenty of poor in Cuba, plenty without adequate food...etc. The medical Care in the DR is head and shoulders above the Cuban. Venezuela (Chavez) talks a good story but hasn't delivered. I'm related to Cubans that are still there. Marxist ideologies have never helped a country or it's poor and there is plenty of proof. Venezuela has the same percentage of literate people 11 years after Chavez as they did before he came to power. He announces all sorts of programs but never follows through with them.

http://christopherhedges.com/2008/02/09/socialist-venezula-crumbles-as-chavezs-failures-mount/
From the article: “I cannot find beans, rice, coffee or milk,” said Mirna de Campos, 56, a nurse’s assistant who lives in the gritty district of Los Teques outside Caracas. “What there is to find is whiskey — lots of it.” Do you really wish this on the Dominican people. Haven't they suffered enough?

Willowtears said:

I'm sorry, but I'm offended by this statement.

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Offended???!!! That's little compared to what many have suffered under socialist regimes.

I recommend you do further reading on the topic.

The Black Book of Communism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

As far as corruption and Domincan politics, I hate them as much as anyone. However, socialism is not the solution. I'm so surprised that with all the free information out there that supposed "humanists" can even entertain this type of government. They either don't know history, or worse don't care to know, or even worse still understand history very well but care nothing of the lives of their fellow men; as after all we are "just cows that need to be shown where to graze".