1852 newspaper "Petition to Recognize Hayti"

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Major448

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If you have ever read "The Count Of Monte Cristo" or "The Three Musketeers" you may be aware of a (slight) link to Haiti.

The books were written by Alexander Dumas, based on the exploits of his father -- Thomas-Alexandre Dumas. Some believed that Thomas might even have eventually become a rival and a challenger to Napoleon. (And I wonder how that would have played out in history....)

Dumas, Thomas-Alexandre (1762
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/16/books/review/the-black-count-by-tom-reiss.html

More links:

Alexander https://www.google.com/search?num=1...12.0....0...1c.1.64.hp..0.15.1654.xlHBM1OmtZs
Thomas https://www.google.com/search?num=1...12.0....0...1c.1.64.hp..0.15.1634.9_E2dhztSRc

I know that they are considered to be "Frenchmen" at that point in their lives. That was also how they thought of themselves. But they also had Haitian (mulatto) blood and roots, even as some in Europe would deny it . There was a complex relationship during that time. And in Haiti ... Black vs mulatto. Could the French take advantage of that in any way?
 
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GWOZOZO

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Major448 said:
I know that they are considered to be "Frenchmen" at that point in their lives.
Click to expand...

Of course, all free people (black, white, mulatto) in the french colony of St-Domingue were considered french.

Toussaint Louverture died a "frenchman".

After 1804 all became Haitian.
 
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mofongoloco

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The corrector. (Sag-Harbor, N.Y.) 1822-1911, July 03, 1824, Page 1, Image 1 - NYS Historic Newspapers

Bottom column three extending to page 4.

A reference to the Colonization Society. A series of correspondence asking to clarify what the circumstances of immigration for free blacks would be. Boyer writes back. A third letter inquires of the relative benefits of Haiti vs returning to Africa.

Among the things I find intriguing is the regularity of the appearance of Haiti in this small town newspaper. Continual references to the trade. Several estates on Long Island were used to supply food and timber to the Caribbean. I just assumed our major trade was Britain. By tonnage haiti's trade was much greater than England and Scotland.
 
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mofongoloco

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1825 reward notice for runaway in NY

The corrector. (Sag-Harbor, N.Y.) 1822-1911, March 05, 1825, Page 3, Image 3 - NYS Historic Newspapers

There is a brief reference to Haiti. But if you note an advert on the right, with the only graphic. A six cent reward for the return of Jack, a thick set 13 year old boy of good countenance. This is New York, people. While conditions in The north may approximate the east of the island and the plantations of the south compare with the western side of the island...it was all always based upon brutal violence.

What kind of psychosis prevails upon a society that enables one issue of the paper to refer to black presidents and emperors and the next a classified advert for a runaway?

Note that it doesn't use the word slave. Already showing a difference between north and south. This was the tailend of slavery in NY. Many people were living side by side with free blacks who had some civil rights. Many of those families still exist. There were laws against dumping old slaves onto the town. The former owners who manumitted old persons had to make sure they had some support, supposedly. There were many poor house type arrangements, which represented a rare place where blacks and whites resided together. Some were charities. Some were for profit boarding house affairs.

Mods, if this is too off topic for Haiti thread, LMK. It is a rare find and may be of interest to some folks here.
 
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Major448

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The Black American to Haiti Immigration Movement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sfQ8nrwMFtg

_______________________________________________________

How they lived in Samana
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DKJbyHYOmv4

Today in Samana
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3oDgbDGxI4s

_______________________________________________________

Haiti?s Ile ? Vache - A "different" situation concerning the "Black American to Haiti Immigration"
Bernard Kock Colonized Cow Island With Freed Slaves | Thompson Family History

And some "current events" in Ile ? Vache
Fight for Haiti?s Ile ? Vache:Interview With KOPI?s J?r?me Genest
 
Xavier_Onassis

Xavier_Onassis

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This is a very interesting story. I assume that the ex-slaves sent to Ile a Vache were simply left there, and their descendents are now assimilated into the local population.
 
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Major448

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Xavier_Onassis said:
This is a very interesting story. I assume that the ex-slaves sent to Ile a Vache were simply left there, and their descendents are now assimilated into the local population.
Click to expand...

Not sure. Some may have. But from my reading, it appears that some went to the mainland (Haiti). Many were "rescued" from the island and returned to America. And perhaps a few stayed.

By the way ... that story is the version as told by the Bernard Kock family. (There are other versions of the story about what happened, and why.) But if you read between the lines ... although he may have considered himself pro-abolition/Liberal ... he was certainly planning on starting a share-cropping/plantation style life. Not too far removed from what the Black settlers had left behind. Basically, he wasn't trustworthy. His motives were suspect. And it all fell apart for him. Unfortunate for the Black "settlers".
 
Xavier_Onassis

Xavier_Onassis

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This scheme sounds like at best a sharecropping deal, certainly unlikely to have been advantageous for the ex-slaves even if it had been a success as described, considering the history of Haiti after this period.
 
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Major448

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Some interesting documents and perspectives about Haiti's history. Keep in mind that some of these "observations" are from non-Haitians, and will reflect how "they" view the world. (And I cannot say if any/all are accurate. I leave that for others to make comments.)

A "sample" of what is in here ... from 1938 (and with no comment from me!)
Haiti: Faustin Wirkus: 1938 -- Liberty Magazine -- If American Intervenes in Haiti


Multi-link pages for more ...
Early Haiti: 1804-1843
Haitian History: Revolutionary War
Haiti: 1844-1915

Those pages came from this link (with even more links available there)
Bob Corbett's Haitian History Page
 
Hillbilly

Hillbilly

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Far and away one of the most interesting threads ever posted.

Thank you all....this is great stuff.

In most Dominican History books (Moya Pons, Cass?, Franco) Dessalines is a nasty figure and mention is always made
of his bloody and savage retreat from Santo Domingo, after being repulsed...Cotui, Moca, Santiago, massacred all.

Few people ever read that "black black" in Hayti carried out horrendous genocide against anyone not "black Black".

Even today there is a noticeable difference between the populations of North and South Haiti..
and the mulattoes and surviving very few "whites" are still "on top"....

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread...really good stuff.

HB
 
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Major448

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Here is a "contemporary" presentation about Haitian history (she says "our-story") by Haitian Professor Bayyinah Bello. (Yes ... that is an "afro", and yes ... she is in her mid 60's.) These are two YouTube videos.

This includes some "tidbits" of historical information, as well as an understanding of how some in Haiti feel about the historical events.

Just as an aside, where she mentions the influence of his mother from "Dahomey" (part of present day Benin, in Africa) on Jean-Jacques Dessalines ... you may need THIS background info in order to understand what the professor means.

History, Travel, Arts, Science, People, Places | Smithsonian
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahomey_Amazons

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The history -- "The Our-Story"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mWYOcNeRfEA

Jean-Jacques Dessalines
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPDq0pZZy_c
 
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mofongoloco

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Well, she is narrowly focused as most academics must be. She is advancing a polemic as much as she is engaging in historical analysis. Oh, excuse me ourstorical analysis. Honestly, after that it was difficult to listen as I kept rolling my eyes in head. But it is definitely a detailed talk which I found I taught me new information.
 
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Major448

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Hillbilly said:
Far and away one of the most interesting threads ever posted.

Thank you all....this is great stuff.

In most Dominican History books (Moya Pons, Cass?, Franco) Dessalines is a nasty figure and mention is always made
of his bloody and savage retreat from Santo Domingo, after being repulsed...Cotui, Moca, Santiago, massacred all.

Few people ever read that "black black" in Hayti carried out horrendous genocide against anyone not "black Black".

Even today there is a noticeable difference between the populations of North and South Haiti..
and the mulattoes and surviving very few "whites" are still "on top"....

Thanks to all who contributed to this thread...really good stuff.

HB
Click to expand...

Thanks HB

Now, I could be wrong ... but the way I read some of this is that after the revolution, the majority Black population believed that they were "sold out" by the minority Mulatto population. All took part in the fight for freedom. But there was no real unity between the two groups. They saw each other as "different" (in fact, the Mulattoes had actually been accustomed to being treated differently). And that "minority" had the resources, connections, "family contacts" (and international support?) to take power ... power which continues to the present day.

I just need to find out a little more ......
 
NALs

NALs

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For a time when one of those Africentric groups rose to power in Haiti and put in place policies that caused much fear against the mulattoes and a sort of mulatto-exodus took place, the Haitian constitution was actually modified to say that the offsprings of Haitians born abroad are Haitian only if they were black. I don't know when this was modified out of Haiti's constitution, but it definitely was included for a time.

The Americans were who eliminated from Haiti's constitution the prohibition towards whites becoming Haitian citizens or even owning anything in Haiti. As a consequence of that change that the Americans did during the occupation of Haiti, there was sort of an influx of foreign investment, shouldn't be a surprise it was mostly American investment. Haiti's economy actually started to flourish until Francois Duvalier rose to power with his negritude movement and reignited much of the anti-white and to an extent anti-mulatto feelings. Needless to say Haiti has not recovered yet from the economic damage Duvalier and his son subjected Haiti. There were even anti-mulatto massacres that took place at that time, in the case of the town of Jeremie its entire mulatto minority was wiped out including their maids and kids. That massacre in particular took place in the mid to late 1960's.

When I first read about those massacres a few years ago, they reminded me of the massacres that Dessalines and Henry Christophe committed against entire Haitian mulatto families. Its even said that when Christophe ordered the massacre of entire mulatto families in the north of Haiti, that he claimed, and used this to justify his massacres, that because they had white blood mixed in their veins they could never become true Haitians.

With Dessalines it was obvious from the very beginning of the Haitian Revolution that he believed in a racial exclusivity. This despite the fact that when Dessalines saw fit he let some mulattoes collaborate in his plans. In the memoirs of many of the French and other whites that survived the massacres in Haiti, in quite a few of them they mention that both Toussaint and Dessaline would go from place to place with a personal band. They often noted that Toussaint bands were composed by blacks, mulattoes, and even white Frenchmen; while Dessalines bands were always described as composed exclusively by blacks, not even a single mulatto was included.

If that was the case among themselves where much of what separated them was color, had the Haitians had control of the Dominican population from the start its safe to assume that at a certain point the Dominicans were going to be wiped out too. There are much more differences between Dominicans and Haitians than there are between mulatto Haitians and black Haitians. If at various times in Haiti's history Haitian milattoes were considered unfit to be Haitians because of their color, how can anyone think Dominicans would had fared any better under Haitian rule?
 
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Major448

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I would imagine that those "fresh off the boat", or within a generation or so, from Africa ... just might be "centered" on Africa.

And as I look at the history, I am reminded of other places ... yes, including Liberia. We know what ultimately happened there. We might even imagine what could eventually happen in Haiti ... if .........

But there just might be some reason why the minority gained and continued to hold power over the majority. Your thoughts on that, NALs? (After all, I am just a novice student of history, trying to learn and understand.)
 
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GWOZOZO

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Major448 said:
But there just might be some reason why the minority gained and continued to hold power over the majority. Your thoughts on that, NALs? (After all, I am just a novice student of history, trying to learn and understand.)
Click to expand...

It is the same in all post colonial societies in the americas.

The lighter group or the group closest to the former white rulers is on top economically.

They started with an advantage and kept it.

Haiti, Jamaica, Bolivia, Mexico, DR....same story.
 
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GWOZOZO

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NALs said:
There were even anti-mulatto massacres that took place at that time, in the case of the town of Jeremie its entire mulatto minority was wiped out including their maids and kids. That massacre in particular took place in the mid to late 1960's.
Click to expand...

These were not anti mulatto massacres, these were anti-opposition massacres.

Duvalier believed in eliminating not just an "enemy" but that enemy's entire family, friends and sometimes social circle.

More black families perished under Duvalier.

It was Duvalier who favored the arabs over the traditional mulatto elite and helped them gain economic prominence.

It had nothing to do with race and everything to do with power and monetay profit. Many mulattos were hard core Duvalierists and profited.
 
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