50% poverty in central London? (hold off mods)

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bachata

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hell yes, dominicans already think children are blessing rather than burden and if the government payed for kids poor would put rabbits to shame by popping offspring left, right and center. the brats would still live on the cheapest formula but what cars would parents drive!
I don't think the same way as those Dominican York, we have a baby she is gonna be 5 next month and we have been paying $600. bucks for daycare for about three years and now she just started going to a private Christian school (that we don't afford to pay) for the simple reason that she will be 5 next month so we couldn't get her enrolled in the public education system as the NC state school age is five.
I'll have to go again to NY city and learn how to get some helps as they are expert doing that over there...

I'm struggling!!!

JJ
 

ExtremeR

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Libertarians bores me. What bothers me is using one noble cause (reasonable individual freedom) in order to push their interests of not paying taxes for the #1 country in the world (that's the reason why) even though they are happy to blow 1 trillion (borrowed by the way) in the most stupid and unreasonable one ever.

Berzin is right!! Enough of this BS.
 
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dogstar

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Tax system even u can understand

I find threads like this very enlightening.

I wonder out loud when people make ignorant, untrue comments about Puerto Ricans and others being nothing but welfare cheats why they never once mention the billions of dollars of corporate welfare Fortune 500 companies routinely lobby for and receive, our tax dollars freely given to the very corporations that are running this country into the ground and sending all of our manufacturing jobs to Asia and Mexico so they can increase their profit margins.

Or how it is that a company can get away with using an offshore mailing address to evade federal taxes while still maintaining a corporate presence right here in the good ol' US of A.



Like I said, these threads are always very illuminating and really get at the heart of what people really think.


THE TAX SYSTEM EXPLAINED IN BEER

Suppose that every day, ten men go out for beer and the bill for all ten comes to $100...
If they paid their bill the way we pay our taxes, it would go something like this...

The first four men (the poorest) would pay nothing.
The fifth would pay $1.
The sixth would pay $3.
The seventh would pay $7.
The eighth would pay $12.
The ninth would pay $18.
The tenth man (the richest) would pay $59.

So, that's what they decided to do.

The ten men drank in the bar every day and seemed quite happy with the arrangement, until one day, the owner threw them a curve ball. "Since you are all such good customers," he said, "I'm going to reduce the cost of your daily beer by $20." Drinks for the ten men would now cost just $80.

The group still wanted to pay their bill the way we pay our taxes. So the first four men were unaffected. They would still drink for free. But what about the other six men? The paying customers? How could they divide the $20 windfall so that everyone would get his fair share?

They realized that $20 divided by six is $3.33. But if they subtracted that from everybody's share, then the fifth man and the sixth man would each end up being paid to drink his beer.

So, the bar owner suggested that it would be fair to reduce each man's bill by a higher percentage the poorer he was, to follow the principle of the tax system they had been using, and he proceeded to work out the amounts he suggested that each should now pay.
And so the fifth man, like the first four, now paid nothing (100% saving).
The sixth now paid $2 instead of $3 (33% saving).
The seventh now paid $5 instead of $7 (28% saving).
The eighth now paid $9 instead of $12 (25% saving).
The ninth now paid $14 instead of $18 (22% saving).
The tenth now paid $49 instead of $59 (16% saving).

Each of the six was better off than before. And the first four continued to drink for free. But, once outside the bar, the men began to compare their savings.

"I only got a dollar out of the $20 saving," declared the sixth man. He pointed to the tenth man,"but he got $10!"
"Yeah, that's right," exclaimed the fifth man. "I only saved a dollar too. It's unfair that he got ten times more benefit than me!"
"That's true!" shouted the seventh man. "Why should he get $10 back, when I got only $2? The wealthy get all the breaks!"
"Wait a minute," yelled the first four men in unison, "we didn't get anything at all. This new tax system exploits the poor!"
The nine men surrounded the tenth and beat him up.

The next night the tenth man didn't show up for drinks, so the nine sat down and had their beers without him. But when it came time to pay the bill, they discovered something important. They didn't have enough money between all of them for even half of the bill!

And that, boys and girls, journalists and government ministers, is how our tax system works. The people who already pay the highest taxes will naturally get the most benefit from a tax reduction. Tax them too much, attack them for being wealthy, and they just may not show up anymore. In fact, they might start drinking overseas, where the atmosphere is somewhat friendlier.

David R. Kamerschen, Ph.D.
Professor of Economics.
 

RacerX

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Oh, please. If minorities weren't so disproportionately represented you'd hear nothing. Cliche's become cliche's because there is a strong element of broad truth in them. Just like your comment that remittances are "defacto" welfare for the Dominican Republic show a certain bias toward a given sector of the Dominican population and hold an element of truth...but is not fully accurate: because "not all" participate in a given activity doesn't mean a disporportionate number don't.

Cliches become cliches because people are prone to let others defines the parameters of the argument instead of verifying the merits for themselves.
Everybody needs a villian to sell their specific program dont they?

Exactly what "corporate welfare" programs are you against, Berzin? When were they passed and what are the names of the legislation?

I can name specific transfer payment "welfare" programs. Can you name specific "corporate welfrare" programs?

He has to name them? Man, there are entire subsidies(welfare) run throughout the ENTIRE DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE. Archer Daniels Midland gets a subsidy for CORN. Tyson and IBP get subsidies for meat, Ralston Purina gets subsidies for wheat. Coca-Cola, DelMonte, United Fruit, Dole, all get subsidies for oranges, lemon, grapefruit. And to be clear, a price support is welfare. Citibank gets a bailout, AIG, GM all got that TARP money. Along with Wachovia, Boeing, United Airlines, all got that 2001 economic stimulus. Haliburton, Blackwater, General Dynamic, wow! that Defense Department really doles out the corporate welfare, while the enlisted personnel qualify for social welfare. Oh, and the energy companies, BP Amoco, Consolidated Coal, 3M, Exxon Mobil, etc. He needs to name specific legislation? Ha, you re funny man, you cannot even get elected unless you are in someones pocket. You name the sector of the economy and I can GUARANTEE you some corporation has the inside edge with the government.


I dunno. Maybe buried somewhere in the 71,684 pages of IRS code making such actions 100% legal?

Well, alcohol was illegal until it wasnt. And it isnt solely because there is a whole lot of money to be made from it. Anheiser Busch is the King of beers? Well, lets examine who was Anheiser and who was Busch? Who was Joseph Kennedy? Wealthy "business" barons. Man how things change once you buy your politicians. They can decriminalize everything for a dollar.


Let me ask you a question: where does the computer manufacturer Lenovo (formerly the IBM PC dividion, sold to a Chinese corporation) exist and where should it pay taxes? Their corporate HQ is in NC, but they have fewer than 30 people working there. Their largest offices are in Hong Kong and Singapore. Their R&D is in China and Japan. Their sales offices are in Paris, China and Singapore. Their manufacturing plants are in China, the US, India and Mexico. Their BoD has 7 Chinese, 5 Americans, an Aussie and a Czech.

And the REASON jobs are "shipped overseas" is because of onerous labor costs, taxation and regulations in the USA, all gubmint caused, no doubt with the best of intentions by concerned legislators.

It is shipped over seas because the "captains of industry" profess to know everything about business until it is realized they dont. Regulations are great because the thing about China and the US? Generally you can drink the water everywhere. Generally in a car accident you have the benefit of engineering on your side. In a house, regulations make it safer...hmm all those earthquakes in China and the "safest most modern" buildings collapsed first. But in the same US house, the stove is UL listed as are all the appliances. There are smoke detectors, methane detectors, load bearing walls. Even the streets have names and numbers, where are these regulations in China? Oh snap, what happened a few years ago with the baby formula that had melanine in it? Whoooo, regulations SUCK bigtime dont they if Government oversight of food preparation is a bad thing. Must be why Hepatitis A,B,C arent that big in the US like China. You really wanted to pick China as your example?
That laptop you use? Not US manufactured. That TV and entertainment equipment? Not US made. The clothes you wear? Not US made. That nice camera equipment? Not US made. Your car? Guaranteed, most of it not made in the US. YOU are as much responsible for those jobes "shipped overseas" as I am because you, as a consumer, seek to maximize your purchasing power and companies seek to fill your demand. Just as we all do.WE created the market, companied meet our demand.

When you use all US manufactured goods, foods and clothes, THEN you stand on moral high ground about eeeeeevil "corporations shipping jobs overseas."

It's a global economy. Economic protectionists haven't figured that out yet.

Here the thing Neo-liberals, conservatives and Libertarians havent figured out. All of this merchandise you mention is built to be consumed in North America. But people who dont have disposable income to consume, dont. I heard the economy was over in 2009. Guess not. "Jobless recovery" says Larry Summers. I heard he quit last week. This is guy who NEVER knew what the hell we was doing but always knew people who put him in positions of authority as though he did. So literally he s going back to the drawing board to teach economics at Harvard. The "wizard of Wall Street" isnt as convincing as Ian McKellan in those Harry Potter movies.

Yes. Now we know the heart of what people really think...and frankly I'm surprised. I never realized you harbored such anger toward white people...:(

BTW: Rand was totally against any gubmint involvement with the creation of wealth, so your "capitalism at it's most succinct" comment could not be more inaccurate vis-a-vis "handouts". And she wrote hundreds of pages about the character of man, and the importance of honor even in the face of oppression. Obviously you've not read Rand because if you had you'd not have made such an innacurate statement.
[/QUOTE]

Rand was a nut job. She would have been better off in Georgia on a plantation. Big crop rattling around in her head. BTW, I dont think he has a disgust or dislike to/for or of white people. I think he is making a statement of the illusory reality some people ascribe to versus the rest of the planet. As an example: Only white Americans can believe the War on Terrorism and every lie that follows it. The whole campaign is propaganda and constructed by lunatics who are experts at professing lunacy. There seriously seems to be an aversion to even considering that you may have to share the planet to save yourself and it from total destruction.
 

ExtremeR

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Dogstar the only problem is that is a bunch of BS. The 2nd richest man in the world admitted of paying only 17.7% of his annual income while his secretary who is earning 60,000 a year have to pay 30%.

Socialism for the rich, capitalism for the poor.

Oh and I found this online and had to stop laughing to be able to breath, the resemblance to some people here is amazing:

gubmint:

Government, as used by right-wing pansies, used to "protest" progressive taxation against the capitalist class who stole the wealth from the working class in the first place. In the place of taxation, the right-wingers advocate charity, in other words, they ask the capitalists to be generous with other people's (working class) money!
"Waah! The gubmint stole my money which I got by brutally exploiting third world sweatshop employees! Waah!" - Right-winger crying over taxes

PD: I meant to say "war" on my previous post not "one".
 
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dogstar

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New accountant

Dogstar the only problem is that is a bunch of BS. The 2nd richest man in the world admitted of paying only 17.7% of his annual income while his secretary who is earning 60,000 a year have to pay 30%.


If she paid $18000. on 60K income, she NEEDS a new accountant. If, again, she paid $18k the boss paid MILLONS. So what is fair, the both get the same services from the government.
Remember, without the bosses, no one would pay taxes.
 

ExtremeR

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Dogstar the only problem is that is a bunch of BS. The 2nd richest man in the world admitted of paying only 17.7% of his annual income while his secretary who is earning 60,000 a year have to pay 30%.


If she paid $18000. on 60K income, she NEEDS a new accountant. If, again, she paid $18k the boss paid MILLONS. So what is fair, the both get the same services from the government.
Remember, without the bosses, no one would pay taxes.

There you go, I count in percentages (Like it should be always) and you are counting on total sums. Are you effing kidding me...

If bosses wouldn't pay their fair share, America would be a 3rd world country long ago. But you don't care about that right. Incredible.
 

BROLIC

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In the U.S. and England It's easy to do nothing, you can actually live a decent life. You can drop out of school,have kids and watch t.v. all day and have your rent paid by section 8,get free daycare and you can even party and bull****. It's the tax payers that pay for all of it.....

I hear these same people say "oh it's so hard to make it" I say "yeah, when you don't do what you supose to do it's gonna be hard"!! In N.Y. you can start your own corporation for $149 US, these are opertunities that are handed to you on a silver plater!!!:surprised
 

RacerX

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In the U.S. and England It's easy to do nothing, you can actually live a decent life. You can drop out of school,have kids and watch t.v. all day and have your rent paid by section 8,get free daycare and you can even party and bull****. It's the tax payers that pay for all of it.....

I hear these same people say "oh it's so hard to make it" I say "yeah, when you don't do what you supose to do it's gonna be hard"!! In N.Y. you can start your own corporation for $149 US, these are opertunities that are handed to you on a silver plater!!!:surprised

Ha! thats funny, Food stamps disbursements are the highest they have ever been but the ideal thing to do is "drop out of school and watch TV all day"? George W. Bush closed the Section 8 program before the housing crisis began. I have never eaten off a silver plater, dont even know where to get one of those
And what you should also know is that in NY even though you can incorporate for $27 most of those corporations dont pay tax. Basically meaning thAT many of them only exist under the table. Cutting corners on licenses and permits and my biggest peeve, experience.
And I cant even fathom the problem with free daycare.
And another crucial question I have for you "what you supose to do"? The unemployments office, health clinics, college financial aid offices, bankruptcy courts all over the country are FULL of people who did what they supposed to do...and got the shaft for doing it.
 

xtoclark

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I find threads like this very enlightening.

It's nice to know what people really think, because when it comes down to it, it's not about extolling the virtues of rugged individualism, or harping on the old "pull yourself up by your bootstraps" mantra.

It's just another excuse to talk crap about poor minorities.


Oh, I know why. Because when it's a white man in a suit, it's not handouts or cheating-it's true Ayn Rand capitalism at it's most succinct. When it's a poverty stricken child of color, or someone who just so happens to find themselves temporarily down on their luck, it's welfare. And welfare is berry berry bad. Especially for all those lazy Puerto Rican welfare cheats.

Like I said, these threads are always very illuminating and really get at the heart of what people really think.

Trust me, this is not Ayn Rand. I can lend you her material if you wish.

Maybe you need more Rand less Moore?
 
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Mason3000

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Oh, I know why. Because when it's a white man in a suit, it's not handouts or cheating-it's true Ayn Rand capitalism at it's most succinct. When it's a poverty stricken child of color, or someone who just so happens to find themselves temporarily down on their luck, it's welfare. And welfare is berry berry bad. Especially for all those lazy Puerto Rican welfare cheats. [/I][/B]

There's the blatant racism I've come to expect from Berzin. Not the first time either is it? This started out as a social/class thread & the true racists, the ones looking to be insulted, just couldn't resist turning it into a racial thread.
 
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Berzin

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Oh, please. If minorities weren't so disproportionately represented you'd hear nothing. Cliche's become cliche's because there is a strong element of broad truth in them. Just like your comment that remittances are "de facto" welfare for the Dominican Republic show a certain bias toward a given sector of the Dominican population and hold an element of truth...but is not fully accurate: because "not all" participate in a given activity doesn't mean a disproportionate number don't.


When I spoke of Dominicans living and working overseas and the economic relationship they have with their home country, I believe I made it clear that I was speaking of a certain segment of the Dominican Diaspora and not every single Dominican. My comments were reflection of an economic reality that exists within in a certain segment of the society in question, not an overall indictment against all Dominican businessmen who operate the specific businesses I mentioned. This is not bias, but an economic reality. So I have no idea why you would interject this as an example.

The other thing that you've left out is the racial bias component inherent in the comment I was referring to, quoted below. Please read it. Because this ridiculous statement is what becomes reality in the minds of many if repeated often enough. It quickly morphs from SOME to MOST and eventually to ALL. This is followed by negative stereotypes like laziness, rampant over-breeding and all manner of social dysfunction which become, due to the evolution of this thought process, innate traits share by ALL Latinos. This is the clear and distinct difference between your example and my reaction to the comment below-

Welfare abuse was rampant in NY when I grew up and probably still is. Latinos were the main abusers on what was called the "welfare train". They used to ride the train up and down the Hudson River, registering for welfare in various towns. Then every week take a trip to collect the welfare checks in those locations. I am very much against welfare that encourages baby production and against most forms of welfare.



Exactly what "corporate welfare" programs are you against, Berzin? When were they passed and what are the names of the legislation?

I can name specific transfer payment "welfare" programs. Can you name specific "corporate welfare" programs?

I'm against ANY corporate welfare programs. Like the separation of church and state, politics and business should remain separate entities. But in our society they are intimately intertwined.

Corporate lobbyists on Capital Hill spend their careers influencing legislation favorable to the corporate clients they represent. Corporations spend billions of dollars a year making sure legislation is passed that is amenable to their business interests.

Individual citizens are blocked out of this process. Individual citizens do not have a voice in this process. It is all about the perpetration of the Iron Triangle shared by special interests, government officials and the federal agencies they look to influence and procure favors from, a system that is about as undemocratic as exists anywhere in the world.


I dunno. Maybe buried somewhere in the 71,684 pages of IRS code making such actions 100% legal?

The same IRS code that have built-in loopholes for corporations to legally evade paying taxes that their salaried American workers must pay, because taxes are removed before they ever see their weekly/bi-weekly checks.

These are the same tax codes that all citizens must abide by. If I incorporate myself and have as my living address a PO box somewhere in the Cayman Islands, I am still not exempt from federal taxes. Private citizens would be sued by the IRS if they attempted such shenanigans, but corporations do this and get away with it all the time.


And the REASON jobs are "shipped overseas" is because of onerous labor costs, taxation and regulations in the USA, all gubmint caused, no doubt with the best of intentions by concerned legislators.

The reason the US manufacturing sector has been shipped overseas has absolutely nothing to do with the things you mentioned. Corporations ship jobs overseas so they can operate in an environment where worker salaries are low and unions do not exist to compromise their profit margins by pestering them about health care benefits, sick leave or any other such nonsense.


That laptop you use? Not US manufactured. That TV and entertainment equipment? Not US made. The clothes you wear? Not US made. That nice camera equipment? Not US made. Your car? Guaranteed, most of it not made in the US. YOU are as much responsible for those jobs "shipped overseas" as I am because you, as a consumer, seek to maximize your purchasing power and companies seek to fill your demand. Just as we all do.WE created the market, companies meet our demand.

When you use all US manufactured goods, foods and clothes, THEN you stand on moral high ground about eeeeeevil "corporations shipping jobs overseas."

This is not me standing on any type of moral platform whatsoever, or claiming corporations are inherently evil. Don’t blame me for purchasing products made overseas-I nor any other private citizen have the ability to suddenly shift the economics of the manufacturing sector from overseas back to the US.

These decisions are made in corporate boardrooms the general public has no access to. This is done by corporations seeking to squeeze their bottom lines. The choices we make as consumers do not precede decisions made by Corporate America as to how they implement their cost-cutting measures. It's the other way around.


BTW: Rand was totally against any gubmint involvement with the creation of wealth, so your "capitalism at it's most succinct" comment could not be more inaccurate vis-a-vis "handouts". And she wrote hundreds of pages about the character of man, and the importance of honor even in the face of oppression. Obviously you've not read Rand because if you had you'd not have made such an inaccurate statement.

My statement on the current state of capitalism as it’s practiced in our contemporary society was meant as sarcasm. I am well-versed not only in Rand's literature but her personal background as well, which in and of itself makes for good reading.

My “capitalism at it’s most succinct” comment is the bastardization of her principles that many people would like to attribute to her. She is a hero in the corporate world in theory, but Ayn Rand would be spinning in her grave if she saw how capitalism is practiced in corporate America.


Yes. Now we know the heart of what people really think...and frankly I'm surprised. I never realized you harbored such anger toward white people...:(

As a recovering Puerto-Rican* I would like to apologize for you misinterpreting the intent of the quote you are referring to. It was due to the largess of the system put in place to institutionalize poverty in America that I've been able to lazily wind my way through private school and a pretty damn good university with a 40-ounce bottle of beer in one hand and a food stamp card in the other. Yessir, the systems' been very very good to me!!!! ;););)

*(Hold on-Puerto Rican, you say? No way he could have EARNED his way through school-aren't they supposed to be lazy welfare cheats, all of them? Well, some of them, and if it's some it HAS to be most. But if it's most then it has to be all of them, right?) ;););)
 
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cobraboy

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Berzin, you name a forum elsewhere and I will answer every point you made in a harshly factual basis.

This is not the place.

You are absolutely wrong on many, many points. I don't know where you get your information, but consider changing the channel.

And I remain in shock over your "white man with a tie" comment. Disappointed.
 

RacerX

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The greatest thing about America is we can always presume to have a lock on the "facts", the total comprehension of all the intricacies of every conceivable thing. And everything else is pedantic drivel. I guess...

Greatest thing about Libert-nerarians is they always profess to have the best answer bar none.

Greatest thing about Neo-conservatives is they can never admit their lunacy worsened everything they touch. Like the King Midas in reverse. Captain Kaopectate is our heros name.

Greatest thing about "white men in ties" is the assumption that they are the ONLY ones in the entire world who know and can execute an suitable course for success.

Greatest thing about Ayn Rand is she s dead.
 
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Berzin

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Berzin, you name a forum elsewhere and I will answer every point you made in a harshly factual basis.

This is not the place.

You can post what you like in the off-topic thread, where I originally requested this thread to be moved to.


You are absolutely wrong on many, many points. I don't know where you get your information, but consider changing the channel.

I don't get my political and socio-economic information from TV. I read books and magazines.


And I remain in shock over your "white man with a tie" comment. Disappointed.

Taken out of context yes, it sounds like something else.

Taken in the context it was written, and as a response to the ever-tiresome "every Puerto Rican is on welfare" rant which I already quoted, maybe you would see my point. You apparently are taking this to heart when there was absolutely no intent or hint of any antagonism on my part.

But if you don't believe me, then I guess there's nothing else I can say about this. :disappoin

I certainly did notice the silence when the statement about Latino welfare cheats wasn't challenged except by one person, and believe me I too was disappointed. Disappointed but not surprised.

You've made your personal displeasure for anyone on the public dole quite clear over the years. What these people have done to you I have no idea, but it must have been something terrible.

I don't like the welfare system either and never said I did. But you present one side of the coin without presenting the corporate side of tax breaks and other government handouts that cost the taxpayer billions of dollars, because apparently to you there is no such thing as corporate welfare.

How then is a discussion possible, except for a "You are wrong and I have facts to prove it?" retort?
 
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cobraboy

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The greatest thing about America is we can always presume to have a lock on the "facts", the total comprehension of all the intricacies of every conceivable thing. And everything else is pedantic drivel. I guess...

Greatest thing about Libert-nerarians is they always profess to have the best answer bar none.

Greatest thing about Neo-conservatives is they can never admit their lunacy worsened everything they touch. Like the King Midas in reverse. Captain Kaopectate is our heros name.

Greatest thing about "white men in ties" is the assumption that they are the ONLY ones in the entire world who know and can execute an suitable course for success.

Greatest thing about Ayn Rand is she s dead.
Then you understand neither libertarianism nor Ayn Rand.

They both, first and foremost, examine the nature of man. Then they overlay "man" within the context of the relationships of men.

Both are more of a philosophical state than a partisan political entity.

Both are routinely denegrated by collectivists.
 

AnnaC

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How did an unrelated DR topic about London end up turning into an unrelated DR topic about America?

Mods?
 

cobraboy

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How did an unrelated DR topic about London end up turning into an unrelated DR topic about America?

Mods?
A Moderator reopend a dormant, 2-month old thread to post a non-DR related rant.

That's how.:tired:
 
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