Chaos still reigns!!!

[BushBaby]

"Politicians"!!!!

The article yesterday in the DR1 news points this out to a "T"!!

Remember General "Pepe" Goico?Chief of advance security for "Hipolito".THe guy that ran up a 50 million dollar credit card debt at Baninter.Remember him? Drug runner!
He just left the DR for Paris! Nice work if you can get it!That is the "punishment" metered out to Dominican politicians for theft :bandit: ,fraud :bandit: ,assassinations :bandit: ,rape :bandit: ,robbery :bandit: ,and assault! :bandit:
There should be a sign at all Dominican airports: "Abandon Hope All Ye Who Enter Here",unless you came to get "LAID" on the cheap!"
CCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC

Come on Criss, join the optimists party for a few moments PLEASE!! We KNOW you have a brain in your head as you have demonstrated such over the years, but this negativity rather plays down the opportunity to get two or three influencial Dominicans who read this forum, really involved in getting our POSITIVE & CONSTRUCTIVE thoughts over. As most have said here, we don't expect to get change tomorrow, we KNOW it will be a long & hard road to tread, but at least let us TRY!!

There IS a way for us all to progress, there IS a way to get Dominicans running their country with pride & efficiency - it is just that -Together - we have not found it yet. YOU may be disgruntled & bitter towards the hope for the future, please do not foister all that on us that HAVE some hope left!!

I honestly believe that in the past you too had hope for the country's potential, if only THIS or THAT was put into place - let us have those thoughts from the past & see if we can find a way to put them into operation NOW!! ~ Grahame.

 

[Chris]

With Respect?

I wonder about a few things?

Is the 'need for change' as strong in the Dominican community as it is in the 'gringo community'?

Is there a hint of 'let's show the poor less fortunate people how they should do it because we know better' in this thread?

Is there a thought to 'what would the Dominican People want in terms of change'? in this thread?

Is there a real humility and acceptance amongst the folks wanting change, that if the Dominican People do not want to change anything, that would be that?

Is there anyone else on this thread that wonders about these things?

 

[BushBaby]

I am 'Guilty' as Charged.

From the discussions I have had with many businessmen & lower paid manual labourers, I get the impression they are wanting some form of change but don't really know what that change needs to be. When I discuss ideas with them, they seem prepared to take on board some of the points I raise. To THAT end, I am inflicting MY thoughts/views on to the Dominicans, not by intent, but by enthusiasm & desire to help them build better opportunities for themselves.

If I present my views at 200% level & they get taken up by the recipient at 50% level, they might (if ever) get introduced at 10% level. THAT 10% level will HAVE to be the Dominican required & suitable level - NOT mine. This should be lost after the initial thought has been germinated!

Lambada is right, Chriss is right - we DO need to temper our enthusiasm to the requirements of the Dominicans themselves. However, we must also encourage them to set their levels for attainment high so that the result of any "Fall Off" still enables a big step forward to be taken!!

Thank you both for keeping me in place - I'll try to curb my enthusiasm AND to see opportunities/new ideas through the eyes of my Dominican friends!! ~ Grahame.

 

[Texas Bill]

Chris

I understand where you're coming from!
Ordinarily, I would have held the same opinions as you. But after really thinking about all this, I came to the conclusion that an outside effort would be required to start the ball rolling on attempting to foster a change in the general attitude reference the government and the inefficiency under which it operates.
The general attitude of "get it while you can" has different incumbents every 4 years. I asked the question,"has anyone ever presented a different scenario of government employment" to the general population and/or to those wishing to be so employed? All the political parties have habitually used this vehicle to garner a following and financial contributions to their efforts at being the incumbent party. It is something that is the stuff of history in every country. It has always been with us and probably always will be, this system of rewarding followers. However, in most modern governments, the nepotism and political payoffs have been relagated to other areas since most modern governments have adopted a more or less professional Civil Service to provide continuity of government services/activities regardless of the party in power. True, the upper echelons of government are still dependent upon political patronage to be filled, but most government leaders take care in filling those posts with competent personnel capable of fulfilling the requirements of good and proper administration.
In order for the DR to avoid the mad scramble of filling the essential government functions and to provide the continuity so necessary in today's governmental, financial and diplomatic milieus this government must modernize it's attitudes and functions to meet the challanges it faces.
That, in essence of the proposals we are seeking. That and the vehicle and dialogue necessary to impliment those proposals.
That it will take a lot of effort, I couldn't agree more. However, I think that in the long run if such proposals are accepted and implimented, the effort will have been worth it. Not all will be accepted; perhaps none, but the germ will have been planted and maybe, just maybe, it will grow in time and our efforts will be justified.
I guess what I'm saying is this, when we perceive a problem and don't try to offer a solution, we abrogate one our responsibilities as a citizen.

Sorry, didn't mean to get on a soap box.

Texas Bill

 

[BushBaby]

no problem but I know a hot air balloon co. that could use your services.
geeeeez. (and some elec. co.'s that would love to harness all that wasted energy!) ok I'm out. good luk!!

k1w1
I have just spent 15 minutes studying your total posts on DR1. Not much to say which is constructive I notice, just one liners generally that are normally disparaging to the person you are "trying" to respond to. PLEASE do us the favour of making a serious contribution to this thread which is trying to have a serious discussion on matters Dominican & Governmental.

Ohh, just seen that you are "out of here". Pity that as I am sure with your years of experience of happenings in the DR that you would have had some sensible thoughts to pass on to us "Newcomers" of 12 years or so!!

Sorry guys, now let's back to constructive & positive exchange of ideas ~ Grahame.

 

[Lambada]

Did anyone watch Despierta con CDN this morning? Francisco Cabreja, the Executive Director of Participacion Cuidadana was being interviwed. He commented on the lack of political will to confront corruption, criticised the appointment of more than 100 Secretaries of State without portfolio & criticised the firing of public employees every 4 years, which he said poorly reflects on the efficiency of running the state. He wants Participacion Cuidadana involved in the debate on the Civil Service Law.
Were these not the exact same points made earlier by Texas Bill & BushBaby among others?
http://www.elcaribe.com.do/articulo...d=081CA84A1DAC47C79D92776580EBBF8B&Seccion=63
Oh and Criss Colon, avoid Puerto Plata for cheap laying. I just read a report that the Provincial Governor plans a clean up!
http://www.elcaribe.com.do/articulo...d=A2D43104FC584D16BED6C45B394B1CEA&Seccion=63

 

[Chris]

I understand where you're coming from!
Ordinarily, I would have held the same opinions as you. But after really thinking about all this, I came to the conclusion that an outside effort would be required to start the ball rolling on attempting to foster a change in the general attitude reference the government and the inefficiency under which it operates. ..... Sorry, didn't mean to get on a soap box. Texas Bill

:classic: No problem about the soap box - I've found myself there a few times as well ....

Your sentence that I want to focus on is "an outside effort would be required to start the ball rolling on attempting to foster a change in the general attitude"

So, I'm simply asking the age-old, possibly philisophical, question about change -- Will ANY change that is 'imposed' from the outside have any positive effect? or, Do people need to WANT to change before they change? Or, how does one touch the hearts and minds of people to do the right thing for themselves?

You see, I have no problem with what you want to accomplish - I have a philisophical problem far before the "accomplishment" stage. This is, that I have no faith in 'imposed' change, and the only change agent that really works if one studies 'developing' nations, is the 'internal will of the people' to change. Change by definition comes by two methods, evolutionary or revolunionary... If one wants to foster an evolutionary change, (and I do believe that is what you're talking about , you either do it in a big way, education, television campaigns, information dissimenation, and so on... Otherwise, all you have is your own influence to do things on a smaller scale.

So, in the early stages of definition or framing of the problem, the question should be asked, Do the people want to change, or not! And I do not believe we have a clear answer on this point.

 

[gringo in dr]

c'mon guys GIVE IT UP!! You're in the DOMINICAN (sorry rickdick) Learn to live with it. You're not going to change SQUAT. Change like you're envisioning WILL NOT HAPPEN in your lifetime as this will only occur 'within' And you are not 'within' believe me.
Suck on a presidente or some brugal and live your life in paradise.
cheers

Will I be silent in the face of this ongoing, systematic stupidity in the 'running' of any government which I am living under!!
I may not be a citizen (and US laws prohibit my being so), but I am, by God, a resident subject to the vagaries of the ill enforced laws of this, my adopted country. i will do everything in my power to start the ball rolling through constant bitching, pointing out the shortcomings of this system and will offer solutions to the problem point by ever-loving point!
If you wish to remain complascent in the matter, that is your prerogative, but then you may not have anything to add anyway! And I say that, tounge-in-cheek, so don't take it literally nor personally.
We had this same problem in our US government until the late 1800's when Congress finally realized they were penalizing both the public and their trading partners, the business world, etc. That's when they passed the Civil Service Act and finally brought about a modicum of efficiency to government operations, rank and file.
Yes, it will take a very strong political movement to change the 500 years of government inefficiency, nepotism, and cronyism under which we operate. BUT, it CAN be done!!!
As an entre to this question, does anyone know what Lionel's email address is??? If you do, PM me with it and I'll get started on THIS project.
C'mon, let's get organized and innundate the Gov. with the demands, OR are you afraid to rock the boat???

Texas Bill[/QUOTE]

We does US law prohibit you from becoming a dual citizen with the DR? As far as I know as long as the US does not have some problem with the country you can become a citizen of as many as you choose. I certainly plan on becoming a citizen of the DR.

 

[NALs]

Will I be silent in the face of this ongoing, systematic stupidity in the 'running' of any government which I am living under!!
I may not be a citizen (and US laws prohibit my being so), but I am, by God, a resident subject to the vagaries of the ill enforced laws of this, my adopted country. i will do everything in my power to start the ball rolling through constant bitching, pointing out the shortcomings of this system and will offer solutions to the problem point by ever-loving point!
If you wish to remain complascent in the matter, that is your prerogative, but then you may not have anything to add anyway! And I say that, tounge-in-cheek, so don't take it literally nor personally.
We had this same problem in our US government until the late 1800's when Congress finally realized they were penalizing both the public and their trading partners, the business world, etc. That's when they passed the Civil Service Act and finally brought about a modicum of efficiency to government operations, rank and file.
Yes, it will take a very strong political movement to change the 500 years of government inefficiency, nepotism, and cronyism under which we operate. BUT, it CAN be done!!!
As an entre to this question, does anyone know what Lionel's email address is??? If you do, PM me with it and I'll get started on THIS project.
C'mon, let's get organized and innundate the Gov. with the demands, OR are you afraid to rock the boat???

Texas Bill

We does US law prohibit you from becoming a dual citizen with the DR? As far as I know as long as the US does not have some problem with the country you can become a citizen of as many as you choose. I certainly plan on becoming a citizen of the DR.[/QUOTE]

TBill was part of the US Military at one point and I guess, there are different rules for military folks than to regular civilians. Just my guess, he will obviously have the answer to that.

 

[Texas Bill]

Will I be silent in the face of this ongoing, systematic stupidity in the 'running' of any government which I am living under!!
I may not be a citizen (and US laws prohibit my being so), but I am, by God, a resident subject to the vagaries of the ill enforced laws of this, my adopted country. i will do everything in my power to start the ball rolling through constant bitching, pointing out the shortcomings of this system and will offer solutions to the problem point by ever-loving point!
If you wish to remain complascent in the matter, that is your prerogative, but then you may not have anything to add anyway! And I say that, tounge-in-cheek, so don't take it literally nor personally.
We had this same problem in our US government until the late 1800's when Congress finally realized they were penalizing both the public and their trading partners, the business world, etc. That's when they passed the Civil Service Act and finally brought about a modicum of efficiency to government operations, rank and file.
Yes, it will take a very strong political movement to change the 500 years of government inefficiency, nepotism, and cronyism under which we operate. BUT, it CAN be done!!!
As an entre to this question, does anyone know what Lionel's email address is??? If you do, PM me with it and I'll get started on THIS project.
C'mon, let's get organized and innundate the Gov. with the demands, OR are you afraid to rock the boat???

Texas Bill

We does US law prohibit you from becoming a dual citizen with the DR? As far as I know as long as the US does not have some problem with the country you can become a citizen of as many as you choose. I certainly plan on becoming a citizen of the DR.[/QUOTE]

Gringo in DR;

I am a retired USAF Captain and as such am prohibited by Public Law from becoming a citizen of any other country. This is because ofthe fact that I can be recalled to active duty during periods of emergency. Additionally, although maybe my age would be a deterrent, as a citizen I would be subject to forced military service which could cause certain National Security problems. In addition, I cannot accept employment by any other country (ie., Federal Service, not private). It may appear that is rather a harsh imposition, but it is a fact. There is, however, no prohibition to those in my category from becoming Residents of another country.

Texas Bill

 

[Texas Bill]

:classic: No problem about the soap box - I've found myself there a few times as well ....

Your sentence that I want to focus on is "an outside effort would be required to start the ball rolling on attempting to foster a change in the general attitude"

So, I'm simply asking the age-old, possibly philisophical, question about change -- Will ANY change that is 'imposed' from the outside have any positive effect? or, Do people need to WANT to change before they change? Or, how does one touch the hearts and minds of people to do the right thing for themselves?

You see, I have no problem with what you want to accomplish - I have a philisophical problem far before the "accomplishment" stage. This is, that I have no faith in 'imposed' change, and the only change agent that really works if one studies 'developing' nations, is the 'internal will of the people' to change. Change by definition comes by two methods, evolutionary or revolunionary... If one wants to foster an evolutionary change, (and I do believe that is what you're talking about , you either do it in a big way, education, television campaigns, information dissimenation, and so on... Otherwise, all you have is your own influence to do things on a smaller scale.

So, in the early stages of definition or framing of the problem, the question should be asked, Do the people want to change, or not! And I do not believe we have a clear answer on this point.

Chris,

I really don't advocate any change except from within. My main thrust, and I guess I wasn't really clear on the subject, is to convince the 'powers that be' of the effacy of changing the system of government implimentation of laws and regulations to a more efficient one. To do away with the nepotism and political patronage and embrace a system of competative examinations to fill the rank and file of the government. That is the idea insofar as the Civil Service is concerned. The other is to embrace and enforce the 'rule of law' equally and without regard to economic or political strengths of the individual.
To speak about these proposals in such a manner as to make them clear and concise to the public and to the public servants. To attempt to convince them that a better system will emerge through the changes to be made. That the continuity of government services will be moore beneficial if the government continues to operate efficiently regardless of which political party is incumbent. To foster the idea that it is much better to realize that one doesn't lose their job every 4 years to someone else but that they will enjoy that job as long as they function in an honorable and consistent manner. That they will be promoted periodicaly and can expect to hold the job until retirement age and then receive an adequate income thereafter.

Man, that's a long posting without proper introduction at the begining of each sentence. Gomen Nisia.

Texas Bill

 

[Texas Bill]

Chris,

I really don't advocate any change except from within. My main thrust, and I guess I wasn't really clear on the subject, is to convince the 'powers that be' of the effacy of changing the system of government implimentation of laws and regulations to a more efficient one. To do away with the nepotism and political patronage and embrace a system of competative examinations to fill the rank and file of the government. That is the idea insofar as the Civil Service is concerned. The other is to embrace and enforce the 'rule of law' equally and without regard to economic or political strengths of the individual.
To speak about these proposals in such a manner as to make them clear and concise to the public and to the public servants. To attempt to convince them that a better system will emerge through the changes to be made. That the continuity of government services will be moore beneficial if the government continues to operate efficiently regardless of which political party is incumbent. To foster the idea that it is much better to realize that one doesn't lose their job every 4 years to someone else but that they will enjoy that job as long as they function in an honorable and consistent manner. That they will be promoted periodicaly and can expect to hold the job until retirement age and then receive an adequate income thereafter.

Man, that's a long posting without proper introduction at the begining of each sentence. Gomen Nisia.

BTW, my reference to an "outside force" was meant to be as 'not from within the government', sic, from the citizenry themselves by demanding the changes to be made and "to straighten up and fly right" type of dialogue. Sorry I wasn't too clear on that point.
Texas Bill

edited to add the last paragraph, wjich I forgot to do originally.
TB

 

[bienamor]

We does US law prohibit you from becoming a dual citizen with the DR? As far as I know as long as the US does not have some problem with the country you can become a citizen of as many as you choose. I certainly plan on becoming a citizen of the DR.

Gringo in DR;

I am a retired USAF Captain and as such am prohibited by Public Law from becoming a citizen of any other country. This is because ofthe fact that I can be recalled to active duty during periods of emergency. Additionally, although maybe my age would be a deterrent, as a citizen I would be subject to forced military service which could cause certain National Security problems. In addition, I cannot accept employment by any other country (ie., Federal Service, not private). It may appear that is rather a harsh imposition, but it is a fact. There is, however, no prohibition to those in my category from becoming Residents of another country.

Texas Bill[/QUOTE]


Somebody change the rules?
As far as I knew a US citizen can become a citizen of any other country whether or not the US has a problem with the country or not. But you would have to give up your US citizenship. So gringo go for it. As for myself I will remain a resident.

This is not a comment on TB's situation, that is completly different!

 

[cjewell]

On a lighter note

I am laughing after reading this posting because these administration issues are not just limited to the governement offices with in the DR. I went to the consolate to process my residency visa in downtown Toronto. I asked them:

How much does the visa cost? The girl said I dont know
Do you have a form my doctor complete because he doesnt recognize the term medical certificate? The girl said I dont know
I asked if she has the visa application form? She said I dont know

Then I was sitting in a chair 10 feet from the Official Generals office door where this girl stood asking him the questions and he could not even come up with an answer - He could not even be bothered to get up out of his chair and attempt to help us.

I asked about 15 questions with responses of I dont know, got frustrated and left ($15 dollars in parking money later). This was the Dominican Consolate.

I then called the embassey in Montreal, The Consolate in Ottawa, The Vice consolate in North York

WOULD YOU BELIVE THROUGH 15 REPRESENTATIVES IN 4 OFFICES I DID NOT GET ONE ANSWER TO ONE QUESTION - OTHER THEN " I DONT KNOW "

One person even called me today to tell me she still doesnt know the answers to the question

I feel that if you are being paid to offer immigtration information you should know what is required to submit the application - otherwise I dont understand the point of these offices

I consider my self a fairly patient and an easygoing person but this was ridiculous

aww well - just thought I would submit my story,,, looks like I'll be going down as a tourist and have a lawyer file my papers there hehehe